Home | Community | Message Board


World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Aversion to conspiracies
    #1677165 - 07/01/03 04:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Why is there such an aversion to "conspiracy theories" in certain circles?

Can anyone disagree with any of the following statements?

1) By this definition, conspiracies are positively commonplace.

con?spir?a?cy Audio pronunciation of conspiracy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-sp?r-s)
n. pl. con?spir?a?cies

1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

2) Questioning the government's motivations is often erroneously termed a "conspiracy theory":

2a) Politicians don't generally tell the public their real geopolitical motivations.

2ai) Thus taking politicians at their word is self-delusionary at best.

2b) But, lying in and of itself is not strictly a conspiracy.

2c) Thus accusing the government of lying is not engaging in conspiracy theory.

3) Historically there are plenty of good examples of the government engaging in acts which are aimed more at entrenching the personal power of the rulers than the good of the common people.

4) There are also historically plenty of examples of secret agreements between powerful figures, i.e. real and actual conspiracies.

5) Historically, wars, while presented in jingoistic and patriotistic terms to the serfs, are often fought on resource issues which have more relevance to the oligarchies than to the everyday members of society.

6) Based just on these statements, it can be said that *every* worldview that doesn't acknowledge the real presence and/or potential of conspiracies within the circles of the powerful (including but not limited to the government) is puerile, idealistic, or paradigmically belonging to class of "the ruled".

7) Thus, an unquestioning attitude applied to the irregularities of the most powerful group of the present is counter to the spirit of liberty and democracy. Especially so is an unquestioning attitude which is dogmatic and self-righteous, and expects everybody who doesn't share this attitude to meekly back down under a hailstorm of dominatory alpha male tactics. (But hey, I'm getting a little close to the bone.)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1677180 - 07/01/03 04:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

one of the things i'm on probabation for right now is "conspiracy", haha.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1677215 - 07/01/03 04:47 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, conspiracy theories, tin foil hats, how did these soundbytes become trump cards in themselves? But to be fair, your points 6 and 7 don't mean that a "true patriot" has to accept any particular allegation.

I, for one, believe there is some form of conspiracy by some level of U.S. government in the case of Sept. 11. Maybe simply a conspiracy to cover up a major breakdown. Maybe there really was the noble act of sacrificing a few precious Americans in order to rally the nation behind certain foreign endeavors--i.e. allowing an anticipated yet likely vaguely-detailed attack to serve as catylist. Maybe I'm wrong altogether. My guess is that the level of forgiveness by some camps is a reaction against the level of accusation by others (and maybe vice-versa). We're funny.

Sorry, I don't mean to turn this into another WTC thread. Interesting breakdown. (Your post, not the WTC incident.)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: ]
    #1677219 - 07/01/03 04:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
one of the things i'm on probabation for right now is "conspiracy", haha. 




I guess your lawyer wasn't familiar with the "tinfoil hat argument"  (See Learyfan vs. luvdemshrooms, 2003)

:grin: 


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: hongomon]
    #1677265 - 07/01/03 05:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


But to be fair, your points 6 and 7 don't mean that a "true patriot" has to accept any particular allegation.




Yeah, right on. But no allegation should be dismissed because it is a "conspiracy theory", but rather considered on its individual merits, etc.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1677280 - 07/01/03 05:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
Quote:


But to be fair, your points 6 and 7 don't mean that a "true patriot" has to accept any particular allegation.




Yeah, right on. But no allegation should be dismissed because it is a "conspiracy theory", but rather considered on its individual merits, etc.




Exactly.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1677352 - 07/01/03 06:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I'm going to use the term "you" as a generic one.

It's not that there is a problem with you questioning things. It's just that it never ends. You seem to think everything is a plot, or a scheme, or the like.

Are there conspiracies? Fuck yes but not everything, or even most things, are one.

You're like the girl who cried wolf.

Then with circumstantial, unverified evidence, with the blessing of hindsight, and no actual knowledge of events, you decide you, and you alone, have the true story.

It's ridiculous.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1677436 - 07/01/03 06:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

You understand, don't you, that there is a whole spectrum of "conspiracy theorists"? Let me try to define a few positions on the spectrum:

* The dupe: everything one reads in the media is true; everything the government and corporations state is true; advertising must be believed.
...
* The optimist: while conspiracies occasionally exist within corrupt circles, these are quickly routed out, and are generally impotent. By and large, our government is honest, the democracy in this country works well, etc etc.
---
* The patriot: while historically powerful conspiracies have been shown to exist, I know the current administration (whichever one) to be honest. The president is a good man, and I believe he is doing right for the country.
...
* The skeptic: look, there's a whole bunch of corruption within the government; deals are being made with special interests left right and center, and the administration seems more interested in maintaining its power and paying off its friends than serving "we the people", whom it claims to represent.
...
* The uber-conspiracist: the government is basically powerless, and has been for some time. The power in this country belongs to small groups of rich white men who decide the agendas for the government, mint the money, run the corporations, run the international trade organizations, etc.
...
* The paranoid: everything is conspiracy; you can believe nothing; everybody has an agenda; everybody is out to get me.

That's my answer to your point. It is possible to believe or to question without falling under the banner of paranoia. If you perceive irregularities which contradict the official story, you can use historical context and historical patterns, and stated agendas, to try to piece together what the more likely story is.

Let me put it another way:
Saying X is more likely than Y, where Y is defined as the official story and has been shown to contradict itself, is a more valid position than defending Y because you don't wish to consider that X is a possibility. Evidence for X is not required to speculate that it is a possibility, but one should of course be willing to discard X if there is counter evidence for it. Thus on this forum, when somebody raises a point: "Y is bullshit, isn't X more likely", the constructive response if you believe otherwise is either to bolster the position of Y or provide evidence or reasoning showing that X is actually also bullshit.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1677512 - 07/01/03 07:17 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Your example is a waste of typed words.

If I didn't believe that, using your example, that most here fall under "the paranoid and / or the skeptic", I'd have little comment.

Add that to the fact that while some here worry about the rich and tax cuts, they say nothing about real problems.

Slavery in the Sudan. Castro having dissidents executed. Iranians beating protesters. And on and on. But that doesn't matter as long as there are "problems" in the US, where the vast majority have life pretty damn good. And those that don't are more often than not responsible for their own problems.

Please don't take this as an insult but you guys have your ordering of the worlds problems seriously fucked up.

And even here, you'll bitch about drug laws and the government telling you what you can do, yet you think it's fine for them to pick my pocket and take what I've worked for to give to some sleazebag who's main contribution in life is keeping Ben & Jerrys profits high while popping out the next generation of welfare weasels. You'll moan and groan about freedom of the press while ignoring the 2nd and 10th ammendments since they don't fit your grand plans for the future. You're a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

I'm sure few here will admit it, but I'd wager that all some do is complain here on this site. Which will do absolutely nothing. I doubt that most have taken the time to write their reps. Hell,I doubt most of them even know who their elected reps are. Not just the feds, but local as well. I doubt most here can name a majority of the Supreme Court. So while many wander around, loudly proclaiming how concerned they are about their arch enemy Bush, they are merely parroting things they've heard on various left wing web sites.

But hey, the US makes a good whipping boy.

Then add to that, those who can't understand a simple sentence, who misquote, attribute things to the wrong poster, exaggerate and fabricate.

That is why my posts often ring of contempt and mockery.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1677518 - 07/01/03 07:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

well done.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: ]
    #1677531 - 07/01/03 07:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,243
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 6 months, 13 days
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1677532 - 07/01/03 07:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Oh my god...you actually made a comprehensive post with an actual valid argument with little or no smart ass comments! Nice work!


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: Rono]
    #1677538 - 07/01/03 07:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Oh my god...you actually made a comprehensive post with an actual valid argument with little or no smart ass comments! Nice work!




There's a lot more of them there than you realize.

Believe it or not the smart ass comments are how we talk in this area. We can take it, which is why none here have actually struck a major blow while zinging me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1679200 - 07/02/03 06:03 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

You obviously can read, but let me nevertheless reiterate: the paranoid is a more extreme version of the skeptic. Vice versa, for every tin foil hat quip you make, you set yourself up to take the role of the dupe.

Quote:


Slavery in the Sudan. Castro having dissidents executed. Iranians beating protesters. And on and on. But that doesn't matter as long as there are "problems" in the US, where the vast majority have life pretty damn good. And those that don't are more often than not responsible for their own problems.





I guess it depends on your objectives. In my mind, the US is the #1 factor in the future of humans. PNAC, love them or hate them, are realistic in their chances. Thus, yes, I could bitch and moan about slavery in the Sudan, or the massacre of millions in the Congo over the past few years, or whatever else....but to what end? We're in America, we're in a better position than the rest of the world to closely observe our government, and being voting public we have -theoretically- a say in how things are done.

You may well be right that some don't bother with their representatives etc; personally I'm constantly bitching and moaning to mine, and usually receive nice letters from them actually addressing my points, and often in agreement to boot. I can on the other hand understand those who are disillusioned with due process.

Your constitutional arguments are red herrings in this thread, but fine, point taken. Personally I don't hold the constitution or the bill of rights sacred beyond measure; I (for some reason) hold this wacky idea that times have changed since they were signed. On the other hand, the US, which is supposedly renowned for its liberties, is doing a fine job clamping down on civil rights (or at least setting the precedent to do so) with Ashcroft at the helm, and I believe this is one of our most pressing issues. My point, in other words, is that the letter of the constitution is not half as important as the spirit and principles behind it.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1679339 - 07/02/03 07:45 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Vice versa, for every tin foil hat quip you make, you set yourself up to take the role of the dupe.



Only to those who don't laugh very much.


Quote:

Thus, yes, I could bitch and moan about slavery in the Sudan, or the massacre of millions in the Congo over the past few years, or whatever else....but to what end?



To just about the same end you'll achieve bitching about anything else, especially here.


Quote:

personally I'm constantly bitching and moaning to mine



Assuming you really do, I respect that.


Quote:

I can on the other hand understand those who are disillusioned with due process.



Understand? Yes. Respect? Fuck no.


Quote:

Your constitutional arguments are red herrings in this thread, but fine, point taken.



Yes, not exactly on topic but I was on a roll.


Quote:

Personally I don't hold the constitution or the bill of rights sacred beyond measure



Ah, but they are. They're the reason we have had one of the longest running single forms of government.


Quote:

On the other hand, the US, which is supposedly renowned for its liberties, is doing a fine job clamping down on civil rights (or at least setting the precedent to do so) with Ashcroft at the helm, and I believe this is one of our most pressing issues.



I agree. That is truly a sad turn of events.


Quote:

My point, in other words, is that the letter of the constitution is not half as important as the spirit and principles behind it.



I disagree. They are all equally important. The letter must also be taken in the historical context, such as the word "militia".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Aversion to conspiracies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1684066 - 07/03/03 03:49 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The fact of the matter is that people are ignorant and most of them prefer to stay that way. Its gotten to the point where my understanding of what is going on on this planet is so screwed up that I really don't feel comfortable talking about it with most people.

I mean, honestly, how can people trust George Bush Sr.? He was head of the CIA during the 70's!!!! But even the most anti-government hard right winger doesn't want to hear that.

But anyway, I'm not going to go off into a tangent and completly discredit myself- I'll just say that there is scarier shit going on right now than most people can even imagine.

But that's OK... turn on "Friends" and drink a Starbucks, and try not to think about it


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* A Letter To "the Official Conspiracy Theorists"
( 1 2 all )
Una 2,494 38 03/28/06 07:22 AM
by Diploid
* Do You Believe In Conspiracies?
( 1 2 all )
usefulidiot 3,372 30 04/17/17 07:41 PM
by Mycos1
* conspiracy theories chaospilot 940 15 04/17/17 08:40 PM
by Mycos1
* American Education= conspiracy?
( 1 2 all )
DoctorJ 2,131 20 07/18/03 01:50 AM
by CeeEssGee
* Global Elite-Conspiracy
( 1 2 3 4 all )
TrueBrode 4,233 62 01/17/04 05:53 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* U.S Patriot Act renewal blocked in Senate **Not Any More**
( 1 2 3 all )
DNKYD 3,367 44 12/23/05 05:16 PM
by kotik
* poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Annapurna1
8,442 147 07/04/06 12:05 AM
by David_vs_Goliath
* Bombs in the Building: World Trade Center 'Conspiracy Fact'
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
ekomstop 10,423 176 09/28/04 02:14 AM
by ekomstop

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
780 topic views. 8 members, 19 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.05 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 19 queries.