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Offlinechristopera
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #26407351 - 12/30/19 06:56 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Chomsky's quantitative analysis of various political theories are pretty hard to argue with. When you get into his more qualitative stuff there are a few reasonable critiques, but few academics have successfully argued against him. I'd like to see Enlil's critiques, because, if they are legit he might as well start touring. There's quite a bit of money to be made.


--------------------
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

I’m sorry it had to be me.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26407402 - 12/30/19 07:59 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Why do you want to deplatform racist speech? It can be easily identified as a logical fallacy.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Invisiblerelic
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26407415 - 12/30/19 08:09 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Why do you want to deplatform racist speech?





Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
<snip>
Remember that deplatforming isn't about getting racists to suppress their views - it's about preventing their access to the audience and/or credibility that such a platform offers. I'm not concerned about pissing off existing racists - I'm concerned with limiting the ability for existing racists to recruit new ones and in this aspect deplatforming is effective.




Edited by relic (12/30/19 08:10 AM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: living_failure] * 1
    #26407430 - 12/30/19 08:27 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

living_failure said:
I totally lost the other thread, like totally, and i marked up the other one waiting for the discussion to be linked.


Not everybody is good as debating or have time for it i guess.

I am used to lurk a lot, and it is sad to see most internet forum discussion die because well, no discussion presented anymore just circlejerk.
I see your neccesity of getting rid of the "enemies" because of ethical implications of your point of view. But i think everyone, even you, would benefit if the discussions are being made.
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
There is no defense to antisemetism.
But I still take this forum for exactly what I think it is, an internet drug site. I don't think it's important except as out pastime. Nobody is paying any attention to us except us.

You are an extremally high quality poster, and I hope you are also making your arguments somewhere else where it might make a difference. But I haven't seen anything on the internet except back and forth ranting.





There is a difference between pure antisemitism /pol/ style and what qman was trying to prove. I think it fell more into "conspiracy" than antisemitism




I don't know what you mean by my necessity of getting rid of the enemies because of ethical implications of my point of view. I think I have been very clear that the only people I want to get rid of are low postcount trolls who have shown no redeeming values in every one of their posts. Thankfully they have been dropping like flies. I don't know it it's Enlil's return or some other mod, but somebody has been on the ball.

Beyond that I said what I really think. I honestly don't think anything that goes on here is very important. If someone spent 8 hours trying to register voters it would be more valuable than a year spent posting here. 

I'll leave it to idealistic people to be idealistic. It's not in my nature. I just want to see something happen that will knock that smug look off the faces of Republicans. I do like to argue, but it's probably just a personal problem.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: relic] * 1
    #26407528 - 12/30/19 09:45 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Why do you want to deplatform racist speech?





Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
<snip>
Remember that deplatforming isn't about getting racists to suppress their views - it's about preventing their access to the audience and/or credibility that such a platform offers. I'm not concerned about pissing off existing racists - I'm concerned with limiting the ability for existing racists to recruit new ones and in this aspect deplatforming is effective.






Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Why do you want to deplatform racist speech?





Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
<snip>
Remember that deplatforming isn't about getting racists to suppress their views - it's about preventing their access to the audience and/or credibility that such a platform offers. I'm not concerned about pissing off existing racists - I'm concerned with limiting the ability for existing racists to recruit new ones and in this aspect deplatforming is effective.







Does this thought apply only to social media? How about when the skinheads assemble in public? Taking away a public space  would be deplatforming.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26407548 - 12/30/19 10:02 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

The term skinheads gets generalized to mean one variant of white supremacists, but many are left wing anti-facists. It's just a (no hair) hairstyle which includes people of many political views.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26407559 - 12/30/19 10:13 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Thats more precise. I got jumped by skinheads (the red shoelace type) in the mid nineties. For the above example insert any degenerate racist group.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleRevok
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: silversoul7]
    #26407571 - 12/30/19 10:26 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
This is a forum for discussing and debating politics, not for personal attacks.  If you want to flame people, go to OTD.




I resent this... OTD has no interest in the petty squabbles of other forums.


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Offlineliving_failure
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26407576 - 12/30/19 10:29 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

living_failure said:
I totally lost the other thread, like totally, and i marked up the other one waiting for the discussion to be linked.


Not everybody is good as debating or have time for it i guess.

I am used to lurk a lot, and it is sad to see most internet forum discussion die because well, no discussion presented anymore just circlejerk.
I see your neccesity of getting rid of the "enemies" because of ethical implications of your point of view. But i think everyone, even you, would benefit if the discussions are being made.
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
There is no defense to antisemetism.
But I still take this forum for exactly what I think it is, an internet drug site. I don't think it's important except as out pastime. Nobody is paying any attention to us except us.

You are an extremally high quality poster, and I hope you are also making your arguments somewhere else where it might make a difference. But I haven't seen anything on the internet except back and forth ranting.





There is a difference between pure antisemitism /pol/ style and what qman was trying to prove. I think it fell more into "conspiracy" than antisemitism




I don't know what you mean by my necessity of getting rid of the enemies because of ethical implications of my point of view. I think I have been very clear that the only people I want to get rid of are low postcount trolls who have shown no redeeming values in every one of their posts. Thankfully they have been dropping like flies. I don't know it it's Enlil's return or some other mod, but somebody has been on the ball.

Beyond that I said what I really think. I honestly don't think anything that goes on here is very important. If someone spent 8 hours trying to register voters it would be more valuable than a year spent posting here. 

I'll leave it to idealistic people to be idealistic. It's not in my nature. I just want to see something happen that will knock that smug look off the faces of Republicans. I do like to argue, but it's probably just a personal problem.





the first part was for shiva, somehow the quote fell into somekind of cybernetic black hole, or i just forgot to click on quote or something.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26407620 - 12/30/19 11:06 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The term skinheads gets generalized to mean one variant of white supremacists, but many are left wing anti-facists. It's just a (no hair) hairstyle which includes people of many political views.




Did you just say that there are many anti-fascist, white supremecist leftists?

I haven't heard of these, go on, sir.

I will say that, even if this is the case, the fascist, right wing, authoritarian skinhead varient is far more likely to pose a threat to life and limb of those who disagree with them, or look different than them. This has been the case in the past, and it appears to be the case today.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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InvisibleRevok
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #26407627 - 12/30/19 11:10 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

When I was younger there was a group called SHARP WHO espoused an inclusive platform.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26407628 - 12/30/19 11:11 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I myself probably became more educated about conservative viewpoints as a result of my discussions with them here.



I believe you are conflating conservatism with racism. Unless you consider racism to be a necessary aspect of conservatism, then conservative views have not been censured on this website.



Maybe I am confusing the two, as I think it's uncommon to see liberals making racist comments.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Is providing a platform to racists the only way to understand the prevalence of racist beliefs? Could providing such a platform have any associated negative effects on a community too?



Is denying the platform going to reduce the prevalence of racist ideals?



I have the same question.  In fact, I would guess that telling people it's not ok to express a possibly racist opinion only makes them more racist.



You have my answer above but to be honest I think it's poor form to not answer the questions I posed to you first before asking your own - this is a discussion, not an interrogation.



Ok, to answer your first question, this isn't the only way to understand racist beliefs, but a political discussion board seems like one of the more logical forums to have such discussions.  Could providing such a platform have negative effects?  Sure, but to me that largely depends on the posters themselves.  I'm perfectly fine with people expressing their view that they prefer to live among others of the same race.  I'm not ok with people saying (for example) "I don't care for your opinion because you're just a (insert hated race here)!"

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Furthermore, are you actually making the argument that calling out racism makes people more racist? I hope this is different from the old alt-right rallying cry of "being called racist made me racist".



It's different.  I am not saying calling out racism makes people racist.  I'm saying calling out racism could make racist people dig in their heels and become even more racist.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Remember that deplatforming isn't about getting racists to suppress their views - it's about preventing their access to the audience and/or credibility that such a platform offers. I'm not concerned about pissing off existing racists - I'm concerned with limiting the ability for existing racists to recruit new ones and in this aspect deplatforming is effective.



That sounds like logic for not allowing jailed drug offenders and convicted felons to vote - their vote might help make drugs legal, and we don't want that, right?

I think a political discussion forum is one of the places it should be ok to allow racists to express their views.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26407635 - 12/30/19 11:15 AM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Why do you want to deplatform racist speech? It can be easily identified as a logical fallacy.




I don't support deplatforming, but I do see some merit in doing so. The fact of the matter is, racist/white supremecist/extremist fringe organizations target unreasonable, disgruntled, irrational, angry, unintelligent individuals, and radicalize them.

While most of us have the ability to process ideas through a filter of rationality, and apply what we know about logical fallacies, etc, many do not share that luxury, and are easily swept away by charismatic charlatans with confident sounding messages, and simple solutions to all of their problems. Unification via the identification of a common enemy has always been a very potent force.

It only takes a small number of these fools to end a lot of lives.

The reason I don't support deplatforming, is because stifling speech is a slippery slope...

Quote:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.




Quite ironic to be using this poem to defend the right of skinheads to a platform, but it's still applicable! lmao


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/30/19 11:23 AM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26407698 - 12/30/19 12:19 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Does this thought apply only to social media? How about when the skinheads assemble in public? Taking away a public space  would be deplatforming.



Exactly, and the situation you describe is pretty much where modern day antifascism got its start. In the mid-70s UK, fascist politics were grafted onto what was originally an apolitical skinhead subculture. We call them boneheads.

When boneheads would gather in public space, they would pass out neo-nazi pamphlets and recruit new members - they would also violently attack minorities and antifascists who strolled into these zones. The violence reached an intensity where people were being killed, but a modern day antifascist movement was born out of the chaos.

The neo-nazi skinhead movement travelled in a wave to mainland Europe by the early 1980s and North America a few years later - spawning antifascist or anti-racist movements in response every time.

If you are interested I highly recommend this documentary which focuses on Paris in the 1980s and how local youth responded to growing neo-nazi violence: https://libcom.org/library/antifa-chasseurs-de-skins


--------------------


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: living_failure]
    #26407718 - 12/30/19 12:31 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

living_failure said:
I totally lost the other thread, like totally, and i marked up the other one waiting for the discussion to be linked.


Not everybody is good as debating or have time for it i guess.

I am used to lurk a lot, and it is sad to see most internet forum discussion die because well, no discussion presented anymore just circlejerk.
I see your neccesity of getting rid of the "enemies" because of ethical implications of your point of view. But i think everyone, even you, would benefit if the discussions are being made.



But what if no discussion is being attempted? I'll never be one to avoid serious discussions on difficult issues - but only if it's actually a discussion.

What if all they do is spam non sequitors and quotes from their preferred racist publications? Should we dedicate our time debunking the same racist ideals over and over again at the expense of more constructive discussions? Should we just ignore them and let the litter pile up without correcting it? Or do we go deplatforming?


--------------------


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #26407720 - 12/30/19 12:32 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The term skinheads gets generalized to mean one variant of white supremacists, but many are left wing anti-fascists. It's just a (no hair) hairstyle which includes people of many political views.




Did you just say that there are many anti-fascist, white supremecist leftists?

I haven't heard of these, go on, sir.

I will say that, even if this is the case, the fascist, right wing, authoritarian skinhead varient is far more likely to pose a threat to life and limb of those who disagree with them, or look different than them. This has been the case in the past, and it appears to be the case today.




I'm not sure if I didn't punctuate correctly or you misunderstood. I'm saying many skinheads are leftwing anti-fascists. In music culture I'm thinking of fans of Dead Kennedys' "Fuck Off Nazi Punk" and Rock Against Racism.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26407734 - 12/30/19 12:41 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I'm not sure if I didn't punctuate correctly or you misunderstood. I'm saying many skinheads are leftwing anti-fascists. In music culture I'm thinking of fans of Dead Kennedys' "Fuck Off Nazi Punk" and Rock Against Racism.




Ahh! I got you. I think my misunderstanding was actually an example of what you were trying to say lol


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/30/19 12:42 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #26407736 - 12/30/19 12:44 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The term skinheads gets generalized to mean one variant of white supremacists, but many are left wing anti-facists. It's just a (no hair) hairstyle which includes people of many political views.




Did you just say that there are many anti-fascist, white supremecist leftists?

I haven't heard of these, go on, sir.

I will say that, even if this is the case, the fascist, right wing, authoritarian skinhead varient is far more likely to pose a threat to life and limb of those who disagree with them, or look different than them. This has been the case in the past, and it appears to be the case today.



Skinheads were traditionally an apolitical working class subculture. Nowadays this group is referred to as trad skins.

Then a wave of neo-nazism began to infest skinhead subculture in the 1970s. We call them boneheads.

In response, antifascist, anti-racist, and left-wing politics took a forefront in some skinhead groups giving rise to redskins - some well known groups are SHARPs (skinheads against racial prejudice), RASH (red and anarchist skinheads) and AFA (antifascist action).

Tradskins, redskins, and boneheads. Next time I'll break down the subtleties between hobo, tramp, and bum.


--------------------


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26407737 - 12/30/19 12:45 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

living_failure said:
I totally lost the other thread, like totally, and i marked up the other one waiting for the discussion to be linked.


Not everybody is good as debating or have time for it i guess.

I am used to lurk a lot, and it is sad to see most internet forum discussion die because well, no discussion presented anymore just circlejerk.
I see your neccesity of getting rid of the "enemies" because of ethical implications of your point of view. But i think everyone, even you, would benefit if the discussions are being made.



But what if no discussion is being attempted? I'll never be one to avoid serious discussions on difficult issues - but only if it's actually a discussion.

What if all they do is spam non sequitors and quotes from their preferred racist publications? Should we dedicate our time debunking the same racist ideals over and over again at the expense of more constructive discussions? Should we just ignore them and let the litter pile up without correcting it? Or do we go deplatforming?




You make some good points. At the end of the day, I don't want people deplatformed, because I don't want to give google, facebook, or any other multinational fascist corporate piece of shit company deplateforming power. They always start off doing these things for the right reasons.

If someone is inciting violence, I believe that this falls in the realm of unprotected speech. Let the justice system handle that.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/30/19 12:46 PM)


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Offlineliving_failure
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Re: i now understand why we have a no flaming rule. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #26407756 - 12/30/19 12:58 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The term skinheads gets generalized to mean one variant of white supremacists, but many are left wing anti-facists. It's just a (no hair) hairstyle which includes people of many political views.




Did you just say that there are many anti-fascist, white supremecist leftists?

I haven't heard of these, go on, sir.

I will say that, even if this is the case, the fascist, right wing, authoritarian skinhead varient is far more likely to pose a threat to life and limb of those who disagree with them, or look different than them. This has been the case in the past, and it appears to be the case today.




That is not my experience, i have more problems with the "red" ones. But That is my experience and i know it is not the most common thing.
It is been a lot of years without an explosion of violence like the one i lived 10 years ago, maybe there was something going on in my city i dont know, but far as i know it even ended with people being killed in the underground.
But i love my slayer tshirt, so fuck em.
(Take into account, that since the war, and the dictatorship after that, we have a different extreme left-right hate than the skinhead-antifa you people talk. Funnily enough, with the years, the tv and the new generations, new ultras of both hands look more and more like in all europe).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

living_failure said:
I totally lost the other thread, like totally, and i marked up the other one waiting for the discussion to be linked.


Not everybody is good as debating or have time for it i guess.

I am used to lurk a lot, and it is sad to see most internet forum discussion die because well, no discussion presented anymore just circlejerk.
I see your neccesity of getting rid of the "enemies" because of ethical implications of your point of view. But i think everyone, even you, would benefit if the discussions are being made.



But what if no discussion is being attempted? I'll never be one to avoid serious discussions on difficult issues - but only if it's actually a discussion.

What if all they do is spam non sequitors and quotes from their preferred racist publications? Should we dedicate our time debunking the same racist ideals over and over again at the expense of more constructive discussions? Should we just ignore them and let the litter pile up without correcting it? Or do we go deplatforming?





Well, if the quote is valid, let them make the quote and judge the quote not the person EVERYTIME. It is suprising how authoritarian you are.
We are discussing politics, not changing the world, no matter what we say here, the world will remain the same.
Now again, if they geniunally are scum, that is another matter, but the pure crazy /pol/acks remain well, in /pol/. I don't believe qman to be a bad guy, wrong? maybe, but if you think he is wrong, prove it to him, not to yourself.


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