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living_failure unworthy Registered: 06/13/19 Posts: 352 Loc: spain, madrid Last seen: 3 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Not the same case, egoistically speaking yes. But ethically speaking no. And as an ethic or a moral, nobody said anything if it being good or wrong, and emotionally you might feel guilty by not opposing slavery. Not having a relationship with someone is not even remotely close to slavery Quote: That is absurd and a strawman, not even remotely what anybody said. Would you drive your car blindfolded? no, it is risky i can already do it without being blindfolded. Quote: He is not stating and nobody stated in any moment that it is good to follow blindly the community values. Just that in that case it is irrational to be with a black guy when the community will reject you (because you know, every ethical and moral decision is singular). As anybody knows, even if one takes GREAT PLEASURE by being with a black guy it is not equivalent to fighting a monarchy or against the Heliocentrism. Also no, if egoistically speaking fighting the monarchy is bad for you because people will reject you i can assure you only the antisocial rejected fellas would fight the monarchy, because that is pretty much what happened the most in history. Another different question is when fighting the monarchy is only addressed by the law and order and not society, and when fighting (which is indeed a big risk) a monarchy is better than the alternative egoistically speaking, not as some kind of... categorical imperative? i don't know. So no, indeed, people usually choose to not fight monarchies when social rejection is presented. So your hypothetical case of eternal monarchies because the thing that destroyed them was bravery ignoring society rejection is just that, hypothetical, it is not how the world works. Quote: I never stated anything about racism, i even stated that i am not racist. I was literally explaining why from the point of view of the text that qman said love it is seen as a rebellious act. First of all, racism can be rational (and irrational), from my point of view it is wrong, and i am ready to argue about the wrong parts of rational racist thought because i am not afraid of rational people nor an authoritarian. Not al racism is build of hatred or fear, and not everybody doing good deeds are rational of with good will. This is not high-school, world is not black and white, racist are not crazy scientific nazis. Quote: I think he is just optimistic that your train of thought does not end killing the amount of people stalin killed or the amount of soldiers that died during ww2 because you know, they were human beings too, even the evil ones. Quote: Qman was banned, even if they removed the ban, he was indeed banned. It served exactly the opposite, qman is now afraid of speaking, which is what you wanted and that makes me call you authoritarian and intolerant. Qman have already stated that antisemitism is not equal no critique of in this case US jews. And i believe that those two things are in fact different. Just in case, again, i do not agree with him in that matter. Edited by living_failure (12/31/19 12:40 PM)
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: I'm not the only one acknowledging that inter-racial relationships are sometimes viewed as problematic to their communities. You do realize black women are usually the most outraged when black men date/marry white women? There's tons of books on the very subject. https://www.amazon.com/Aint-All- "Why do black women feel so hurt when they see black men with white women?" I also agree that everything changes with time, but we're discussing the current environment, not why or how it should change for the better.
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: Fear is a survival mechanism, is fear sometimes irrational? Yes. Is it sometimes rational? Yes, that's why the trait still exists in humans today. Racial tribalism exists in basically every human today, is that rational? If it improves the chances of survival, yes it is. Is that still applicable in the year 2020? It depends on the environment.
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living_failure unworthy Registered: 06/13/19 Posts: 352 Loc: spain, madrid Last seen: 3 years, 10 months |
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Quote: It is not different, i am intolerant (not intolerant of intolerant bullshit). But intolerant of what i think bad or unfair, and you do the same, that is authoritarian and intolerant behaviour. Even more when you actually act about that idea. Quote: I am pretty sure you implied him being racist and antisemitic and deserving a ban. But if i am wrong, sorry, i am still new here and there are so many user names that i could totally mixed up post. If it is not what you said ok. I just thought wrong. Quote: Refusal to discussion is not equal to losing and argument or not being right. Quote: I am starting to believe that i actually mixed up post. There were a lot of people directly claiming or implying qman to be racist and antisemitic. And i thought that you actually said that. Honestly, my mistake. At the moment, i just have a more or less opinion of what the ideas and about the words of qman, But i honestly belive that you are labeling him (even if you never directly name-called him racist or antisemitic) as racist. Am i wrong? Far as i know, you are tired of void discussions and repeating over and over yourself, i understand your boredom, but i genuinely think that qman is not the same case as xul. He is just a guy with less time of with less energies of discussing with you, but he looks rational enough to maid points and recognize other points. What i am criticizing so much is your sentence on qman. Quote: I think you got me totally wrong. I quoted that text because i was trying to prove that judging a person and his intentions by his past posts is pointless and impossible. The post was on Pub, here you are a lot of more serious, but i am still unsure if part of the post was actually serious, not that i care.
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: Well, "shitty ideas" are subjective. That's why I suggest we examine why the court of public opinion exists the way it does in certain environments. Even war or genocide isn't always considered a shitty idea in the court of public opinion. It depends on which side you're on in the war or the genocide, correct? The thing is, you don't get to decide what is a shitty idea and then claim you're saving humanity by de-platforming those ideas. The court of public will ALWAYS override your attempts to micromanage the flow of information and ideas. So I agree, sometimes what me and you might consider shitty ideas will still thrive. Our goal shouldn't be to shut it down, but to examine and understand the thought process behind the motivations for the ideas.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Quote: I agree that, ethically speaking, a community that doesn't accept interracial couples is not the same case as a community that accepts slavery. That doesn't mean there still isn't an ethical reason to support interracial dating, and I was under the impression that you were just discounting the ethical arguments as less important than the social ones. At what point does the ethics of the issue outweigh the social repercussions? Quote: Driving while blindfolded is an inherently dangerous proposition, so I hope we aren't comparing that to interracial dating - which gains its risk from possible social attitudes. Perhaps you can better explain what exactly you mean by "risky and troublesome" then because I'm not understanding why you consider my analogy to be a straw man. Driving is a lot more risky and troublesome than walking, but there are still many rational reasons to drive - interracial dating might be more risky and troublesome (depending on the community attitude), but there are still many rational reasons to date interracially. Perhaps this analogy is more appropriate: same-sex relationships are often more risky and troublesome because of anti-lgbtq social attitudes - does that mean there is no rational reason to date if you're queer? Quote: Quote: He is not stating and nobody stated in any moment that it is good to follow blindly the community values. Just that in that case it is irrational to be with a black guy when the community will reject you (because you know, every ethical and moral decision is singular). As anybody knows, even if one takes GREAT PLEASURE by being with a black guy it is not equivalent to fighting a monarchy or against the Heliocentrism. I think you should stop trying to answer for qman. Speak for yourself, rather than what qman hypothetically thinks. Clearly there is support here for blindly following community values when considering the single issue of white women dating black men - I'm asking qman questions to better understand exactly how widely they apply this principle. And yes, dating a black guy is not the equivalent to fighting a monarchy in the same way that saying fuck the king is not the equivalent to fighting racism - even if one takes GREAT PLEASURE in saying it - let's try and apply a little intellectual honesty in this discussion okay? Quote: "I can assure you only the antisocial rejected fellas would fight the monarchy, because that is pretty much what happened the most in history." What are you, the holder of truth? Why should I take your assurances without evidence? To be honest, I'm not sure if I fully understand the point you are trying to make here. I don't think I made the argument that bravery in ignoring society rejection is what destroys monarchies - I made the argument that too much stock put onto social acceptance would significantly limit progress as a society, and gave some examples where our development as a society was only able to occur when social norms were discounted. I agree that most people usually choose to not fight monarchies, and social rejection is likely to be an aspect in this decision - that doesn't contradict my claim that 'socially acceptable' is not a very useful category, nor does it form a defence for your argument that going against social norms is irrational. Quote: Quote: I never stated anything about racism, i even stated that i am not racist. I was literally explaining why from the point of view of the text that qman said love it is seen as a rebellious act. First of all, racism can be rational (and irrational), from my point of view it is wrong, and i am ready to argue about the wrong parts of rational racist thought because i am not afraid of rational people nor an authoritarian. Not al racism is build of hatred or fear, and not everybody doing good deeds are rational of with good will. This is not high-school, world is not black and white, racist are not crazy scientific nazism. Yes and from the point of view of that same text, listening to the racist beliefs of the community (see: hatred and fear) is a rational act. Please provide one rational form of racism, oh holder of truth. Quote: Qman was indeed permabanned, and then upon further consideration it was revoked - so therefore that initial permaban became just a warning. Since then, I've seen qman make numerous posts in reference to their newfound victim status and fear of speaking - but I haven't actually seen them refuse to participate in discussions nor am I aware that their continued participation is being punished. I do see less dogwhistles though. Have you noticed anything different? Furthermore, can you show me where I stated that I want qman to be afraid of speaking, and any stated reasons why? I don't remember saying that? Besides, what's your end goal? It's not like I have any more authority on third website than any other poster - why should I listen to you and feel bad for just speaking my mind? That makes me call you authoritarian and intolerant.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Quote: "Black women can be racist too" doesn't answer any of the questions posed. Quote: Qman, what method are you using to measure the beliefs of "most men"? What reason do these men have to consider this behaviour as deviant? Do you include yourself in the "most men" category; why or why not? Quote: So you believe we should conform our behaviours and principles to whatever is socially acceptable, without taking into consideration anything else? Please answer the questions posed.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Quote: Rational doesn't mean 'improves chances of survival', it means in accordance with reason and logic. Taking care of a sick orphan doesn't improve my chances of survival, but it would not be irrational to take care of them anyways. Racial tribalism is irrational. What environments in 2020 do you still consider it applicable? Why should we listen to irrational hatred/fear over irrational love?
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RJ Tubs 202 Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,123 Loc: USA Last seen: 16 days, 11 hours |
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Quote: When we consider the vast history of our species, there may be many good (functional) reasons for not mating with people outside of your immediate community. From a biological and epidemiological standpoint. Consider the diseases you might expose your family and community to by going with an outsider. If a Chinese boy is raped by three Mexican men, and he grows up in fear of Mexicans, I believe that's rational.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Quote: Skin tone is not a reliable predictor of physical proximity. Just because we share the same skin tone does not necessarily mean we will share the same resistance to disease. Interracial dating is not an inherently dangerous activity. Quote: The fear would be understandable, but it wouldn't be rational. Using a sample of three to make a statistical conclusion about a population of over 140 million people is not based on reason or logic
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RJ Tubs 202 Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,123 Loc: USA Last seen: 16 days, 11 hours |
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Skin tone isn't a reliable predictor of physical proximity in a multi-cultural society, such as the US right now. But for most of human history it has been, right? Our brains evolved in an environment that was much different than modern multi-cultural society. And when it comes to trauma and being harmed, I don't think the mind is overly concerned with statistics or sample size. It's focused on avoiding the chance of being harmed again. As a kid I was abused by a woman and today I still sometimes struggle with a fear of women.
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: What method? Just hearing how humans interact with each other and the attitudes associated with interracial relationships REGARDLESS of the racial or ethnic makeup of the community. You do accept that seems to be universal to some degree in most cultures? As far as myself, I would state I'm pretty picky and discriminatory in regards to the women I date. But guess what? Everyone is discriminatory when it comes to relationships and mating. As far as behavior that isn't socially acceptable at the time, that's a decision everyone has to make and see if it's worth it or not. Tripping on LSD isn't socially acceptable, but that didn't stop me 20 years ago.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Not even historically. Skin tones are spread across large physical areas. Two dark skinned people could originate as far away from each other as Nigeria to Australia. Two light skinned people could originate as far away from each other as London to Constantinople. Cultural aspects like language, fashion, and custom would be much more reliable predictors of physical proximity and immunity compatibility imo.
And you are correct that the mind, especially when dealing with trauma, is not particularly concerned with statistics, sample size, or rationality - it's focused on avoiding further trauma. That is why I say that the fear can be understandable despite being irrational. I was in a house that was destroyed by a tornado when I was very young and I left with an irrational fear that the slightest hint of stormy weather was another tornado on way. Given my history, a fear of rough weather was understandable, but there was rarely any rational reason to fear a tornado.
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shivas.wisdom בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,471 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 3 hours, 14 minutes |
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Quote: What method? You made the claim that "most men see a white women engaging in deviant behavior when she dates a black man" and I'm asking what method you used to form that conclusion. "Just hearing how humans interact" isn't very specific. I also asked 'what reason do these men have to consider this behaviour as deviant?' and again you neglected to answer. I also asked 'do you include yourself in the "most men" category; why or why not?' and you neglected to answer it directly - opting instead to dodge the question and talk about how you and everyone else can be discriminatory when it comes to relationships. And finally, instead of the vague response about how the decision to conform to the socially acceptable is one everyone has to make and an anecdote about the time you took some LSD, why not explain your specific conditions that lead you to conform with the socially acceptable (like with interracial dating) and what specific conditions lead you to not conform (like the time you took lsd). Evasive answers don't make a discussion. It only gives me the impression that in the 7 years since you made that post in Sexuality and Relationships, the only real change in your beliefs is that you learned to avoid being so explicit.
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: Hmm, I'll actually disagree with you that human survival mechanisms are not usually rational. It is logical that humans are programmed to survive at almost any cost. If taking care of a sick child doesn't hurt your chances of survival, there's nothing illogical about it. "Racial tribalism is irrational" That's not true, if it was "irrational" it wouldn't still exist in humans today. You don't like this part of human nature, but it does serve a function. In fact, it's so important for the survival of humans, it still remains a very active trait even in modern civilizations. Racial tribalism is alive and well in many parts of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So Look at the political world today, people are constantly dividing themselves and the issues with their racial identity. That is racial tribalism at work. Are you going to tell minorities to stop self organizing based on their racial makeup?
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 8 hours, 19 minutes |
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Quote: I'm answering the questions, but you just don't like the answers. Do you really have to even ask why interracial relationships are considered deviant behavior in must cultures across the world? I'm sorry you can't accept that my EXPERIENCE dictates my sentiment on the issue. I asked you a question, do you accept that interracial relationships are considered problematic to some degree in most cultures? I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this discussion is about how people across different cultures and races view interracial relationships, not my personal opinion about it. What I think is irrelevant and meaningless relative to how humans in general view it and for what reasons.
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Bigbadwooof Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 14,047 Last seen: 4 hours, 50 seconds |
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Quote: I don't know that that analogy is correct. It would be correct, if posed directly to Qman, but Qman's relentless apologist is making the case that, to use your analogy - A person is not an advocate of slavery (or racist), just because they abide the culture of slave ownership (or culture of racism) that surrounds them. Which begs the question, if you stand idly by, and watch evil men do evil things, and even follow suit, due to intense social pressures (even against your desire), are you guilty of the same evil? The Nuremberg trials would certainly say yes. I would argue, that a person is the sum of their actions, rather than that of their ideals (particularly those that they do not live, or act upon). A quote that is appropriate here is 'Be the change you wish to see in the world' - Ghandi Is it irrational to be the change you wish to see in the world? I think not. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
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Bigbadwooof Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 14,047 Last seen: 4 hours, 50 seconds |
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To address Qman's post, and why it is in fact racist, I think we ought to first define racism.
Racism, in my mind, is active discrimination against a group of people, based on their race. That is the most basic, fundamental definition of racism. Qman has made one of two possible, dubious assertions, in my mind. (Not trying to be fallacious, these are the only two ways I see to interpret his post) A) Society is observably racist, and therefore there is no conceivable reason why a white woman would engage in race-mixing. Adherence to societal norms is paramount, above all else, lest a person be subject to the most tragic of fates (in his mind); ostracization. Succumbing to societal pressures is the only rational way a person can act. B) There is no reason for a white woman to fraternize with black folk, as they are beneath her. She could only be doing such a thing to get back at her parents, as there is no other reason a white woman would bump uglies with an untouchable. White men won't date her, if she has been tainted by black cock, the forbiddenest of cocks, because it's gross. If A is true, Qman is a coward, if B is true, Qman is a racist. I suspect B is true. I guess I'll leave that up to Qman, though. In either case he is suggesting she engage with black folks in a discriminatory way, based on their race, though, so I guess in either case he is a proponent of racism. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/31/19 07:15 PM)
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Tantrika Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
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do not have a lot to add to this,
but as someone who has too much interest in the production side of professional pornography there has been a long-standing sentiment that actresses who do a scene with even one black guy on film lose a financially significant portion of their audience remember an interview with Lisa Ann where she talked about how the start of her career was spent under contract that outright did not allow her to film with black actors not me agreeing with the sentiment or arguing against there being racism within it; just recognizing that it has been a larger social sentiment bearing economic reprecussions
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Bigbadwooof Trumps Bone Spurs Registered: 12/07/13 Posts: 14,047 Last seen: 4 hours, 50 seconds |
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Quote: That's an excellent observation, which I suppose gives credence to Q's assertion that white men aren't interested in a woman who has been with a black man. I suppose that is a sad reality. I don't believe that it hinders the points I have made, but it does demonstrate that there are many men who feel the way Qman does, which is unfortunate. I will say that in my personal life, when I see a woman with a black man, I often assume she is culturally dissimilar to me, and I am less likely to pursue her down the road. That is, until I get to know her better. My xgf is half black, but culturally she is very similar to me. The cultural differences between black and white people, particularly here in Michigan, as opposed to the West coast, are quite profound. -------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
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