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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir
#16752492 - 08/29/12 04:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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So i made 6 g2g transfer and one of them failed, the biggest jar so it pisses me off, no sign of contam or anything.. Its just that the colonized wbs, upon transfer, dont commence expanding to the fresh wbs sub i made and then the culture dies out..
Again, no sign of contam or anything and all the others from the same colonized wbs source is well colonizing..
Furthermore, ive been failing with coir/verm lately.. 4 big fuckin tubs on two separate batches, 2 tubs per batch.. Its like the wbs dont progress after expanding it in coir/verm and the wbs eventually spoils making a very funky odor when opened.. The procedure i used is hot water pasteurization in bucket tek. No problems with it in my recent works.. What have i done wrong?
Too much heartache man, like i couldve yielded several pounds of shroomies from all of this failure combined..
Anyway, i will be dumping them outside for some outdoor action, neglect and hopeful they fruit someday..
Im asking for help so id nail my 5 g2g jars which is halfway done.. I should succeed this time around. I dunno, i might avoid coir altogether and go with cow manure..
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Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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x CiVil x

Registered: 07/05/12
Posts: 634
Loc: Flying With Mother Nature
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16752701 - 08/29/12 06:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pic's. With the info given, I honestly don't know how to help.
-------------------- “Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” Bruce Lee
myco-tek.org
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16752719 - 08/29/12 06:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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The problem is your grain spawn is contaminated with bacteria. This is why it isn't leaping off into the substrate. Start over and follow sterile procedures when inoculating and expanding your grains. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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a social revolt
retired cultivator


Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 833
Loc: Brooklyn, NYC
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: RogerRabbit]
#16752726 - 08/29/12 06:41 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: The problem is your grain spawn is contaminated with bacteria. This is why it isn't leaping off into the substrate. Start over and follow sterile procedures when inoculating and expanding your grains. RR
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: a social revolt]
#16752775 - 08/29/12 06:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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But the myc in the grains is pretty healthy if you ask me.. Is there any tell-tale signs for such an occurrence? Like i did the sniff tests too, nothing remarkable.. Pics are impossible for me at this time, my current phone registers very poor images.. no digicam.
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Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16752793 - 08/29/12 07:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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How healthy? Completely snow white? If theres any patches of uncolonized grain left over it could be bacteria. If it looks wet, it IS bacteria.
G2G failures have only occurred for me from WBS being too dry, or a contaminant getting into the jar, which G2G is horrible for.
Spawning to Coir only fails if the coirs too wet, which is really easy to do, or if there's bacteria.
Bucket Tek sucks for pasteurization, temperature fluctuates too quickly.
I use a large 4gallon pot on the stove, get it up to 80C with a pillowcase full of coir in it, and half an hour later it's down to 70C if not 65C.
The bucket method probably brings you from around 100C to 80C by the time you've saturated the coir, then an hour later I wouldn't be surprised if it's as low as 40C.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: ZappityZap]
#16752822 - 08/29/12 07:20 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ZappityZap said: How healthy? Completely snow white? If theres any patches of uncolonized grain left over it could be bacteria. If it looks wet, it IS bacteria.
G2G failures have only occurred for me from WBS being too dry, or a contaminant getting into the jar, which G2G is horrible for.
Spawning to Coir only fails if the coirs too wet, which is really easy to do, or if there's bacteria.
Bucket Tek sucks for pasteurization, temperature fluctuates too quickly.
I use a large 4gallon pot on the stove, get it up to 80C with a pillowcase full of coir in it, and half an hour later it's down to 70C if not 65C.
The bucket method probably brings you from around 100C to 80C by the time you've saturated the coir, then an hour later I wouldn't be surprised if it's as low as 40C.
yea, snow white, it looks yummy as is. ive had experiences with bacteria so i kinda know it, esp the sour spots.
awesome info right there..
i should try it, when i grab some culinary thermometer..
anyway, i dont believe you when you say its 40c after half an hour, its still prettty hot, intolerable to the touch, actually..
thanks for the info man. youre cool.
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Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16753021 - 08/29/12 08:38 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
pablokabute said: yea, snow white, it looks yummy as is. ive had experiences with bacteria so i kinda know it, esp the sour spots.
awesome info right there..
i should try it, when i grab some culinary thermometer..
anyway, i dont believe you when you say its 40c after half an hour, its still prettty hot, intolerable to the touch, actually..
thanks for the info man. youre cool. 
After a half hour ya it would still be pretty hot, but after 1 hour, like I said it will be down aroun 40C tops.
You want it between 70-80C for an hour, when pouring boiling water over it, you keep it at 70-80C for a few minutes at best.
You may be able to add boiling water in succession every 20 minutes or so, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would still be better.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: ZappityZap]
#16753074 - 08/29/12 08:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow, great suggestion. you know what, im leaving you a rating right now! hehe.
preciate it man.
thanks a lot. will do that successive ones.. thought of it before but now im all into it. haha.
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: RogerRabbit]
#16753103 - 08/29/12 09:03 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: The problem is your grain spawn is contaminated with bacteria. This is why it isn't leaping off into the substrate. Start over and follow sterile procedures when inoculating and expanding your grains. RR
or could it be that the coir prior to expanding is teeming with bacteria as well?
hmmmm.. i fucked up too many batches this very recent..
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16757462 - 08/29/12 11:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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The coir could be covered in bacteria, but that's what the pasteurization process is for. Kills off the bad bacteria, leaves the good kind that fight on your side.
Also your spawn is full of mycelium, which is much farther ahead in the colonization process than the bacterial spores. By the time the bacteria hatches and starts to grow the mycelium will already have colonized a good portion of the substrate, and will now be releasing antibiotics to prevent bacterial infection.
If it doesn't grow when added to coir, I'm going to have to say the bins probably just too wet. I take my coir, make sure that I have no more than 1 litre in a pillowcase, and squeeze the hell out of it until almost no water comes out.
When you have more coir in the pillowcase, the spongy quality seems to resist you squeezing it, and then you get less water out of it. It doesn't seem like much but the few times I've gotten lazy I've had a result that looked like bacteria, but just turned out to be improper moisture content.
Sometimes it will start growing if you put it in a low humidity chamber, and allow the evaporating water to make it humid for you, reducing the water in the substrate. But sometimes it's too far gone, and it'll die and rot before anything happens.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: ZappityZap]
#16758016 - 08/30/12 03:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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aye aye!
noted all of that..
just wondering, do you have multiple accounts?
you seem well-versed and this was your 8th post! what the fuck, i have 400. xD
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Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16763932 - 08/31/12 02:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
pablokabute said: aye aye!
noted all of that..
just wondering, do you have multiple accounts?
you seem well-versed and this was your 8th post! what the fuck, i have 400. xD
Ya I guess it's a little obvious. I break up my accounts to break up the "footprint" so to speak.
I've been kicking around here since about 2004-2005 at least.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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HybridprX
Biodegrader of coir



Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 2,588
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: RogerRabbit]
#16764130 - 08/31/12 04:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: The problem is your grain spawn is contaminated with bacteria. This is why it isn't leaping off into the substrate. Start over and follow sterile procedures when inoculating and expanding your grains. RR
^^^ RR said it.
They say that there are two distinct smells mycelium can vary in.....a fresh-earth (soil type odor) and fresh mushrooms..... I spawned 16 jars not to long ago and noticed that this is very true....the jars emitting a earthy smell kind of worried me at first but all is well.
Sorry about your luck op.
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: HybridprX]
#16764243 - 08/31/12 06:02 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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actually, i may have pinpointed whats wrong,
i may have soaked the receiving sub in water for too long!! what a noob mistake, prolly cuz my gf came to my house and i cant really deal with the already in the bucket coir.
anyway, i just realized cow manure makes extremely rhizomorphic growths from what i can remember, its so rhizomorphic its almost scary..
maybe id just leap back to cow manure. too rainy in here, i cant get the manure to its right moisture levels lately..
all is well man., i fruited some this very recent, i'd trip for the weekends, sweet.
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16773302 - 09/01/12 08:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Soaked the coir too long? With the boiled water in it?
I've got coir here in an old sealed ice cream container with perlite in it instead of vermiculite. It's not for these purposes, but the main thing is. It was never pasteurized, I added cold tap water to coir, sealed it in anaerobic container. And nothing grew. I had it before sitting out for 2 weeks with the lid off.
I still think it might be that your coir is too wet for the mycelium to eat. Mycelium likes damp conditions, but oddly not wet ones.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: ZappityZap]
#16773475 - 09/01/12 09:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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with the boiled water in it, yea.
thanks for sitting this out with me man. preciate it.
i hope i nail it this time, i seem out of luck for those batches. dammit.
im going back to cow manure, too,, or i can do 50:50 manure coir..
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16773590 - 09/01/12 09:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
pablokabute said: with the boiled water in it, yea.
thanks for sitting this out with me man. preciate it.
i hope i nail it this time, i seem out of luck for those batches. dammit.
im going back to cow manure, too,, or i can do 50:50 manure coir..
No problem at all. I've had the same out of luck experiences, batch after batch of failures. Once you get it though, it's great.
I use just coir cause of prep issues, but would like to try out manure also. At least a 50/50 blend, although I've heard of a few good mixes. Otherwise I'm fairly set in my ways.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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pablokabute
Hari ng Amag



Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 5,241
Loc: rural ghetto
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: ZappityZap]
#16773702 - 09/01/12 09:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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ive had about 80:20 manure coir mix that developed extremely rhizomorphic mycelia, its almost scary.. now that i remember it, im doing that one again..
good luck with your future grows man.
i learned my lesson: NEVER PROCRASTINATE! haha.
--------------------
Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1
'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'
"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."
--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..
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ZappityZap
Stranger


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 45
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Failed transfer/expansion, g2g and coir [Re: pablokabute]
#16774431 - 09/02/12 12:22 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
pablokabute said: ive had about 80:20 manure coir mix that developed extremely rhizomorphic mycelia, its almost scary.. now that i remember it, im doing that one again..
good luck with your future grows man.
i learned my lesson: NEVER PROCRASTINATE! haha.
Hahaha, if you're like me, you may smoke a lot of the green. Digital timers and dates for everything.
I still procrastinate, but I know that if I hit about 1 week and my WBS jars aren't inoculated, I have to toss them and start again. So eventually with a deadline waving in your face, and timers beeping all around you, it forces you to get shit done.
Just write out a checklist, have a toke, and get 'er done.
-------------------- You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!
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