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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: sunyata]
    #1660532 - 06/25/03 02:47 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent post, sunyata!

What I'm wondering is if there are any reductionists today?
The world is so complex so it's hard to see it as "just" the parts moving around, and ignore the causal powers that reside in the connections between those parts.


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OfflineCockyMandrill
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Registered: 01/31/03
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1660890 - 06/25/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Well if your talking about people who think everything is only material, then that should be changing shortly in the future. Most scientists already recognize many sub-atomic particles as not being any kind of matter, as in a closed system it was able to pass through thick lead, and this test was repeated. They also know that over 90% of the universe consists of matter that is invisible to our eyes, they know because they can record how it reacts with matter we can see, this is commonly refferred to as dark matter. These people who believe everything is strictly matter will have something coming to them when the scientists they trust start telling them things that go against there view of the world.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: CockyMandrill]
    #1660959 - 06/25/03 09:48 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

In physics, the idea of matter being solid was thrown out the window almost a hundred years ago. And the idea that matter can't be created or destroyed was abandoned in 1932 when the positron was discovered. Physicists now talk more in terms of stable vs. unstable, and fermion vs. boson rather than material vs. non-material. If there is a modern definition of "matter" I suppose it would be stable fermionic energy, but as you imply, that includes a lot of stuff that isn't what we normally think of as "matter".


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1670952 - 06/29/03 04:44 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

please define "fermion" nd "boson" for the laymen who frequent these message boards.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1671256 - 06/29/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

All energy quanta in quantum physics fall into either of these two categories: fermions or bosons. The main difference is that it is possible for two identical bosons to be found in the same spot, but for two fermions that can never happen. Another way to phrase it is that you can sort of add bosons together like cumulative energy levels, but if you try that with fermions they will always stay separated in space from each other.

The mathematical explanation for this comes from how the wave function behaves if you let two quanta trade places with each other. The square of the wave function must stay the same, since it describes a probability density that isn't affected by such an operation. For bosons, the wave function itself also doesn't change. For fermions, the wave function is inverted (a 180 degrees phase change). These are the only two basic possibilities that keep the square of the wave function unchanged.

This is also related to spin properties: a 360 degree rotation in space returns a boson wave function to its original phase, but it takes 720 degrees (two full turns) in the fermion case. This may sound bizarre, but it makes sense if you think of the state of a fermion as something that always includes connections to distant parts of the universe.

Electrons, quarks, and neutrinos are fermions. Photons, gluons and other force-carrying quanta are bosons. Most of the mass in matter comes from fermions, and the fermionic properties are the reason why matter always takes up space. But bosons contribute to the mass too, and they make it all stick together...

I write "quanta" instead of "particles" because they aren't always localized in space, as one would expect any sane and sober non-hippie particle to be.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1671321 - 06/29/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

...in the fermion case. This may sound bizarre, but it makes sense if you think of the state of a fermion as...

uhmm... burrito?


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineGixxer_boy
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: nubious]
    #1671370 - 06/29/03 11:49 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Hehe, yeah, I really don't know what the hell he was talking about either. Guess a high school education doesn't cut it on these boards all the time.


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"Why do women have breasts?"
......
....
...
..
.
"So you can have something to look at when you're talking to them!" -Peter Griffin


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Offlinenubious
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: Gixxer_boy]
    #1671390 - 06/29/03 12:13 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Guess a high school education doesn't cut it on these boards all the time.



At least you have that to work with...


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1671412 - 06/29/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

atomikfunksoldier said:
at least i think so anyways, all the stuanch materialists/empricists seem to suffer from some complete mental psychosis type consciousness.





dude, materalism and empiricism are totally different things, one is a method while the other is a belief - would you call yourself a rationalist? cause thats what the other alternative is, not some poorly thought out "anti-dogma" (which is, of course, a doctrine itself).

you're giving metaphysics a bad name.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: Malachi]
    #1671426 - 06/29/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

i never said they were the same brah.

I was reffering to individuals who commonly hold the two beliefs simultaenously.

empircism and materialism are good bedfellows, they mix well.

do not underestimate my breadthe of knowledge ever again, or i will have you abducted and dissected by one of my many robotic henchmen.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: materialism=psychosis [Re: nubious]
    #1672650 - 06/29/03 11:00 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

uhmm...  burrito?




Heh, maybe that was unnecessarily cryptic :smile:

Let me explain what I was referring to.

If you take an ordinary physical object, like a cup or shoe, and turn it a little bit, it will have a different orientation in space afterwards. But if you turn it a full 360 degrees, it will return to the same orientation as it had originally. However, this won't happen if the object is a fermion particle. It takes two full turns (720 degrees) for a fermion to return to its original state. That's the bizarre part. How can turning something a full complete turn not return it to its original state?

The answer is that it is not correct to think of the particle as a distinct object that can be separated from its environment. If you instead think of it as a blob with tentacles extending in all directions in space, it can be seen that two full turns are needed if the far ends of the tentacles stay where they are. To see it, look at the pictures on this page:

http://www.vislab.usyd.edu.au/gallery/mathematics/diffeo/diffeo.html

Or better yet, scroll down to the bottom of the page and play the animated movie.
   


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