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OfflineAmanita virosa
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sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab
    #16676971 - 08/10/12 02:48 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

need some help guys...  I have a 10 x 12 antechamber and a 12 by 12 lab.  both with 8 foot ceilings.  I have 12 inch x 12inch hepa vents in the ceiling of each room and am wondering how to size the blowers witch will allow for positive pressure while also cooling the rooms in summer.  Would I size it like a flow hood?  or do I want more pressure, i.e. bigger blower.  It seems like at some point the heat generated by the blower negates the cooling effect of sucking cool air into the lab.  anybody??


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16678758 - 08/10/12 07:42 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

For me, positive pressure in the lab is unnecessary. Consider your lab a contam pit which it is and no amount of prefilter or cleaning up will work. If you develop your protocol with that in mind, you will have contam free transfers.
I cool the lab with an ac with the vents pointing away from me.


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OfflineOICU812
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16678862 - 08/10/12 08:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

From ISO 14644-4:2001 Cleanrooms and associated controlled environments
Part 4: Design, construction and start-up
A.5.3 Pressure differential concept (high pressure differential, low airflow)
A pressure differential exists across the barrier between the cleaner zone towards the less clean zone. A high pressure differential between adjacent zones can be easily controlled but care is recommended to avoid unacceptable turbulence (see Figure A.7).
The pressure differential should be of sufficient magnitude and stable to prevent reversal of airflow direction from that intended. The pressure differential concept should be carefully considered, whether used alone or in combination with other contamination control techniques and concepts.
The pressure differential between adjacent cleanrooms or clean zones of different cleanliness level should lie typically in the range of 5 Pa to 20 Pa, to allow doors to be opened and to avoid unintended cross-flows due to turbulence.
The static pressure between cleanrooms of different class, and cleanrooms and unclassified areas can be established and maintained using various airflow balancing techniques. These include both active/automated and passive/manual systems that are configured to adjust the relative quantities of air that are delivered and removed from each space by the ducted air system, air transfer system and losses.  In situations when pressure differentials at the lower end of this range are accepted, special precautions should be taken to ensure accurate measurement of separating flow or pressure and to prove the stability of the installation.


1 Pa = 0.0040186 Inches of water, 5 Pa = 0.020093, 20 Pa = 0.080372

I have installed a regular 2 ton air handler HVAC system in my 400 sq. ft. clean room including lab, spawn room, hall and gowning room.  I use a Dwyer Magnehelic differential pressure gage measuring the change in air pressure between the lab and the outside air.  My unit produces a 0.04" H2O.  My lab design:



Edited by OICU812 (08/10/12 08:21 PM)


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16679301 - 08/10/12 09:23 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sparkle said:
For me, positive pressure in the lab is unnecessary. Consider your lab a contam pit which it is and no amount of prefilter or cleaning up will work. If you develop your protocol with that in mind, you will have contam free transfers.
I cool the lab with an ac with the vents pointing away from me.





now.... am i missing something?  isnt an ac sucking air into your lab a contam pit as well?  what is it sucking air thru?  i am not so much concerned with positive pressure as i am with cooling the lab... it gets ninety five plus with a four foot flow hood blowing all day long.


Edited by Amanita virosa (08/10/12 09:25 PM)


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa] * 1
    #16679677 - 08/10/12 10:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Quote:

sparkle said:
For me, positive pressure in the lab is unnecessary. Consider your lab a contam pit which it is and no amount of prefilter or cleaning up will work. If you develop your protocol with that in mind, you will have contam free transfers.
I cool the lab with an ac with the vents pointing away from me.





now.... am i missing something?  isnt an ac sucking air into your lab a contam pit as well?  what is it sucking air thru?  i am not so much concerned with positive pressure as i am with cooling the lab... it gets ninety five plus with a four foot flow hood blowing all day long.





Working without an AC in the tropics is not an option even with a window open.
What I'm saying is consider the lab a contam pit. For me there are no greys when it comes to sterile work. 0 contams in the flowhood area above my hand and everywhere else is contams galore. When you think of it this way, it's liberating. The article above talking about zones of semicleanliness still means contams to me.
I have 6 of this hoods working everyday for the last decade (for tissue culture before now also for mushroom). No anteroom, no gowns, no gloves, ac on, people going in and out. When there's no power, I work with the door open as long as there's no strong wind. When the weather is like this (rain everyday) there's even trich on the cement wall but if the protocol is followed, no contams. My hood only has a 10" x10" hepa mounted on top. I copied it from a Bangkok Tissue culture lab with about a thousand of these hoods.
My protocol...


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16680606 - 08/11/12 05:52 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

wow, that is liberating.... I have been forced to do the same thing; working in a hood in the mud room at a community college where there are hundreds of people in and out every day.  HVAC running on and off all the time.  I was always amazed at what I could get away with in terms of keeping it sterile.  Just trying to figure out the best case senario for cooling down the room while limitinng the amt of contam.  And so I am still looking for an answer to my question in  a sense; But positive pressure aside, maybe I should just use a small blower to keep pushing cool air thru the hepa, and generating a minimum of heat.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16682025 - 08/11/12 01:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
now.... am i missing something?  isnt an ac sucking air into your lab a contam pit as well?  what is it sucking air thru?  i am not so much concerned with positive pressure as i am with cooling the lab... it gets ninety five plus with a four foot flow hood blowing all day long.





My HVAC draws air through two MERV-10 filters and enters the lab through two 22x44 HEPA filters.  I use an Airy P311 laser particle counter to determine the integrity of the HEPAs.  A ISO Class 5 cleanroom requires less than 100 particles per ft3.  My last check with the particle counter was 1 particle for the RH HEPA and 2 particles for the LH unit.



You can see the HEPAs in the ceiling by clicking on the link (picture) below: My Lab build progress pictures.


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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16682080 - 08/11/12 01:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Amanita, just remember that even if you are blowing filtered air, if it is positioned wrongly and if it creates turbulence then you'll have contams. Same with an ac. Maybe just have an extractor fan positioned elsewhere. That will still force air through your hepa without the heat factor and it will generate less turbulence.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16689092 - 08/12/12 06:52 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sparkle said:
Amanita, just remember that even if you are blowing filtered air, if it is positioned wrongly and if it creates turbulence then you'll have contams. Same with an ac. Maybe just have an extractor fan positioned elsewhere. That will still force air through your hepa without the heat factor and it will generate less turbulence.




Sparkle,

not sure I follow you.  what do you mean by extractor fan?  how woudl that be different from using a squirrel cage blower type fan?  I was planning on putting an elbow duct on the lab side of the hepa that faces away from the flow hood and sterile airstream.

BTW, i really like your thoughts about zones of contam. and how the only zone that matters is the one right in front of you where you are working.  Everywhere else becomes irrelevent in a sense. I also like the way you boxed in your "hood".  I was planning on boxing mine in as well but up till now it has just sat on the table out in the open, with good results.  At least for  me winter is coming so I can stop sweating so much.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa] * 2
    #16690615 - 08/12/12 11:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sparkle,

not sure I follow you.  what do you mean by extractor fan?  how woudl that be different from using a squirrel cage blower type fan?  I was planning on putting an elbow duct on the lab side of the hepa that faces away from the flow hood and sterile airstream.



I mean an extractor fan blowing hot air from your lab to the outside. It will be replaced by cool air coming through your hepa. Air from the fan through the hepa blows hot air. But I still think the hepa is unnecessary. If it's not windy why don't you just open a window?  The ac on the other hand is necessary not only to cool the place but also to dry. Sweating should not be an option not only for the comfort but the bacteria. Humidity in the hepa is a sure source of contam.
Quote:


BTW, i really like your thoughts about zones of contam. and how the only zone that matters is the one right in front of you where you are working.  Everywhere else becomes irrelevent in a sense.



Avoiding contams is stressful. When my orchid lab was new, we would scrub, wear gowns, keep the door closed, wash everything with chlorox etc. etc. etc. Through the years, accidents have taught us that we don't need to do any of that, we don't even take our shoes off. hell, we don't even wash our hands. Because other than flame, no disinfectant is 100%. Absolutely everything is contamed to some degree except:
1. The inside of what's pressure cooked
2. What is flamed
3. The filtered air.
If you work on this premise, you will  find a protocol that's contam free and stress free. All the other measures are not only unnecessary, expensive and time consuming but it also gives one a false sense of security.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16692374 - 08/13/12 09:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

sparkle you are a goldmine of info/experience.  I hope to upgrade to a flowhood but it seems your design of hood is not standard, can you please clarify how it works with only a 11" hepa when your work area is like 24" ?

I hope to implement your  protocol in future.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Darkman]
    #16697045 - 08/14/12 02:27 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's 10" sq. hepa, 24" x 40" hood. The idea is you work right below the air flow. For me, the small work sterile zone makes you focus on what you have to keep clean. It's angled slightly for the air flow outwards. The glass enables you to work even if there's a slight draft.
Some pics might help...


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16697302 - 08/14/12 05:28 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

holy crap!  looks like you use it alot!  it also looks like you are using a very small amount of grain to inoculate.  What kind of minimalist ratios are you getting away with.  I sometimes feel like i am over spawning esp.  g to sawdust. Currently using 8 oz approx per five pounds of sawdust or enriched medium (sawdust/chips/bran)  This seems to allow the bags to colonize quickly, but would love to slightly overfill the quart jars and try to get three bags worth at 5 oz or so each.  totally off subject i know but...



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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16697922 - 08/14/12 09:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, very interesting Amanita V.

This thread is great- I also liked what OICU812 had to say above, although you are on a completely different level... I'm blown away looking through his pics- they thought of everything! What I noticed is that the clean inoculation labroom at Aloha Medicinals (seen in OICU812's pics) has HEPAs blowing air out at floor level. So in OPs situation, IMO I think that's as far as he needs to go... although as sparkle was saying, it's unnecessary because no matter what there will always be contams everywhere.

However, if any of you plan on being a rocket scientist like OICU812, you should definitely follow his instructions above :rofl:

Brilliant thread with brilliant cultivators:thumbup:

:takingnotes:


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Mykes logos]
    #16698275 - 08/14/12 10:56 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FL fun guy said:
Wow, very interesting Amanita V.

What I noticed is that the clean inoculation labroom at Aloha Medicinals (seen in OICU812's pics) has HEPAs blowing air out at floor level.




Actually, it's the opposite. The intake is at floor level.  90% or more of all contaminants are within a foot or two of the floor, therefore John takes contaminated air from near the floor as the intake to the flow hoods.
RR


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16701481 - 08/14/12 09:09 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

FL fun guy said:
Wow, very interesting Amanita V.

What I noticed is that the clean inoculation labroom at Aloha Medicinals (seen in OICU812's pics) has HEPAs blowing air out at floor level.




Actually, it's the opposite. The intake is at floor level.  90% or more of all contaminants are within a foot or two of the floor, therefore John takes contaminated air from near the floor as the intake to the flow hoods.
RR




Actually, neither are right.  The design of both the lab and the inoculation room at Aloha is to sweep contaminates from the floor and filter them through HEPAs located in the ceiling. There are three type of HEPAs in their cleanrooms: Incoming fresh air, sweepers and work bench HEPAs.

Incoming air and sweeper HEPAs are mounted in the ceiling.  Both the lab and the inoculation rooms HEPAs that emit air onto the work (the bench or flowhood, if you will) take their air from the ceiling or close to it. 

John's reasoning is that it is better to take already cleaned air into the HEPAs at the working surfaces in case there is a breach of integrity of those HEPAs than to risk dumping contaminates onto the work by drawing the air directly off of the floor.  His "sweeper" HEPAs would therefore present less of a risk to the work should there be a leakage. 

Notice the intake at the top left of the inoculation bench next to the ceiling in the picture below.



--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


Edited by OICU812 (08/15/12 04:23 PM)


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16705721 - 08/15/12 06:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
holy crap!  looks like you use it alot!  it also looks like you are using a very small amount of grain to inoculate.  What kind of minimalist ratios are you getting away with.  I sometimes feel like i am over spawning esp.  g to sawdust. Currently using 8 oz approx per five pounds of sawdust or enriched medium (sawdust/chips/bran)  This seems to allow the bags to colonize quickly, but would love to slightly overfill the quart jars and try to get three bags worth at 5 oz or so each.  totally off subject i know but...





Yes Amanita. We do about 2-3 hundred bags a day in this chamber. Almost all the time with 0 contam. I use about a spoonful per pound bag which in turn inocs a 5 lb bag of bulk sub. I think that's about what you use.

Quote:


However, if any of you plan on being a rocket scientist like OICU812, you should definitely follow his instructions above :rofl:



I think when you're as big as aloha you can go overboard with the cleanliness. But for most of us with moderate means we have to find a setup that suits our conditions.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: sparkle]
    #16710986 - 08/16/12 07:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sparkle said:
Quote:


However, if any of you plan on being a rocket scientist like OICU812, you should definitely follow his instructions above



I think when you're as big as aloha you can go overboard with the cleanliness. But for most of us with moderate means we have to find a setup that suits our conditions.




I was merely trying to answer the OP's original question about positive pressure.  I guess my mistake is over fastidiousness.  Positive pressurization really helps sweep out and keep out contaminates.  It's bad enough to battle the existing contaminants save taking on an avalanche more because of poor engineering.  Proper pressurization doesn't have to be fancy or expensive, just well thought-out.

John's elaborate clean rooms are partially due to the FDA regulatory pitbulls nipping at his heals (because his products are consumed without cooking and also sold to other companies for same, he is regulated by the FDA) and partially due to being a multi-million dollar medicinal facility. He is, however, a brilliant engineer and his theories can be followed by anyone with modest means with just a little creativity to produce excellent results.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: OICU812]
    #16713842 - 08/17/12 08:59 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:





I was merely trying to answer the OP's original question about positive pressure.  I guess my mistake is over fastidiousness.  Positive pressurization really helps sweep out and keep out contaminates.  It's bad enough to battle the existing contaminants save taking on an avalanche more because of poor engineering.  Proper pressurization doesn't have to be fancy or expensive, just well thought-out.

John's elaborate clean rooms are partially due to the FDA regulatory pitbulls nipping at his heals (because his products are consumed without cooking and also sold to other companies for same, he is regulated by the FDA) and partially due to being a multi-million dollar medicinal facility. He is, however, a brilliant engineer and his theories can be followed by anyone with modest means with just a little creativity to produce excellent results.




I appreciate any imput from the most simple to the most complex.  I STILL am having a problem remedying this.  Mainly because the main building has no ductwork.  It utilizes a mitsubichi HVAC that just dumps air into the middle of the room.  So, my delima was how to get that air into the lab for cooling primarily;  heating isnt an issue due to the flow hood motor.  I guess i am going with my origional plan to push air thru the hepas using a small blower.  If the blowers generate too much heat, i will try sucking air out of the lab using an exhaust type senario (what sparkle calls an extractor fan).  Obviously, there is no DISADVANTAGE to being as clean and sterile as possible, but many of sparkles points are well taken.  Anyone else have anything to add would love to here.


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Re: sizing a blower for positive pressure in a lab [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #16725089 - 08/19/12 06:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

sparkle said
"Yes Amanita. We do about 2-3 hundred bags a day in this chamber. Almost all the time with 0 contam. I use about a spoonful per pound bag which in turn inocs a 5 lb bag of bulk sub. I think that's about what you use."

Do you inoculate both the 1 and 5 lb bags in the chamber?  (I am assuming by chamber you mean flow hood that you posted in the video)

How many five pound bags do you make with a single one pound bag?


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