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Ratci
Esper<3
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Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!)
#16709780 - 08/16/12 01:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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P1 Everything which exists has an opposite.
P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite.
P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing.
C The reason why everything/something exists is because if "nothing existed," then nothing would exist, necessitating the existence of its opposite, everything/something.
-------------------- People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein
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Diploid
Cuban
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Ratci]
#16709910 - 08/16/12 02:20 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!)
OK:
P1 Everything which exists has an opposite. Gravity exists and it has no opposite.
P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite. See above: Gravity.
P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing. You got one right. But it doesn't support the premise below. You're going from a general (everything) to a specific (nothing). This is like saying that Middle-C on the piano is sound. Therefore sound is Middle-C. It's non-sequitur.
C The reason why everything/something exists is because if "nothing existed," then nothing would exist, necessitating the existence of its opposite, everything/something. Uh, what? That makes no sense. "Nothing" is the lack of existence. For example, there is light and the absence of light. There is no such thing as "dark". That's just a label we use for the absence of light.
In a movie theater, they don't turn on dark bulbs at the start of the film. What they do is turn off the light bulbs.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Absolute
Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
#16710043 - 08/16/12 02:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Gravity exists and it has no opposite.
Anti-gravity
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Absolute]
#16710140 - 08/16/12 02:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite.
this one errors out what follows it:
"Nothing can exist without any opposite."
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Ratci]
#16714238 - 08/17/12 11:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Where did you come up with these premises? They dont seem well founded... I dont think 'opposite' is a trait that applies to things that exist.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Absolute]
#16714756 - 08/17/12 01:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Absolute said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
Gravity exists and it has no opposite.
Anti-gravity
Maybe just 'no gravity'.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16714781 - 08/17/12 01:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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"No gravity" is not the opposite of gravity. If it were, it would have complementary features, like repulsion to complement gravitational attraction.
Is "no paper" the opposite of paper? I don't think so.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
#16714787 - 08/17/12 01:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Gravity and paper simply have no opposites. Its a characteristic that doesn't apply, like asking for the weight of red. An opposite is a contrived and not universal concept. Some people do have mystical attachment to the idea of 'opposite', but in my experience its not a concept worth spending much thought on.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
#16714830 - 08/17/12 01:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: "No gravity" is not the opposite of gravity. If it were, it would have complementary features, like repulsion to complement gravitational attraction.
Is "no paper" the opposite of paper? I don't think so.
Then this premise is wrong too: "P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing. "
Oh hehe, I think that's what you said
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16714836 - 08/17/12 01:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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A premise cant really be wrong though. It is assumed for the sake of discussion. It can however be nonsensical and/or irrelevant to the conclusion. In this case I would say all three are nonsensical and irrelevant to the conclusion.
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Absolute
Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
#16714843 - 08/17/12 01:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Premises can be false.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
#16714844 - 08/17/12 01:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
#16714853 - 08/17/12 01:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmm I think the opposite is only a scale which refers to some arbitrarily man-made scale, like temperature, light, etc... The opposites are only full or nothing
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16714859 - 08/17/12 01:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises)
That is a key distinction that is taught in intro logic. A valid vs sound argument. This argument here may be valid, but it is not sound.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
#16714863 - 08/17/12 01:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises)
That is a key distinction that is taught in intro logic. A valid vs sound argument. This argument here may be valid, but it is not sound.
But it would be only fair to inform the informer about his/her false premises, and then see if they really are false or not
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16714871 - 08/17/12 01:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thats what I did in my first post. IME, most fallacious arguments come from nonsensical premises rather than poor logic.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
#16714884 - 08/17/12 01:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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So just let's see 'opposite' as the thing contrary to its existence
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote] 1
#16714902 - 08/17/12 01:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
So just let's see 'opposite' as the thing contrary to its existence
Thats a nonsense definition IMO. Its a poetic obfuscation rather than a lucid explanation.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
#16714916 - 08/17/12 01:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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How would you define it ?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16714928 - 08/17/12 01:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Opposite? I would use traditional definition that a google search brings up. A definition that cannot be applied like it has been in this thread. Its a highly contextual concept which is why its useless when applied to universal notions.
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