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OfflineRatci
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Registered: 08/27/08
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Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!)
    #16709780 - 08/16/12 03:55 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

P1 Everything which exists has an opposite.

P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite.

P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing.

C  The reason why everything/something exists is because if "nothing existed," then nothing would exist, necessitating the existence of its opposite, everything/something.


--------------------
People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. --Albert Einstein


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Ratci]
    #16709910 - 08/16/12 04:20 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!)

OK:

P1 Everything which exists has an opposite.
Gravity exists and it has no opposite.

P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite.
See above: Gravity.

P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing.
You got one right. But it doesn't support the premise below. You're going from a general (everything) to a specific (nothing). This is like saying that Middle-C on the piano is sound. Therefore sound is Middle-C. It's non-sequitur.

C  The reason why everything/something exists is because if "nothing existed," then nothing would exist, necessitating the existence of its opposite, everything/something.
Uh, what? That makes no sense. "Nothing" is the lack of existence. For example, there is light and the absence of light. There is no such thing as "dark". That's just a label we use for the absence of light.

In a movie theater, they don't turn on dark bulbs at the start of the film. What they do is turn off the light bulbs.
:what:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleAbsolute

Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
    #16710043 - 08/16/12 04:40 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

Gravity exists and it has no opposite.






Anti-gravity


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Absolute]
    #16710140 - 08/16/12 04:55 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

P2 Nothing can exist without its opposite.




this one errors out what follows it:

"Nothing can exist without any opposite."


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Ratci]
    #16714238 - 08/17/12 01:01 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Where did you come up with these premises?  They dont seem well founded...  I dont think 'opposite' is a trait that applies to things that exist. 


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Absolute]
    #16714756 - 08/17/12 03:10 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Absolute said:
Quote:

Diploid said:

Gravity exists and it has no opposite.






Anti-gravity



Maybe just 'no gravity'.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16714781 - 08/17/12 03:16 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

"No gravity" is not the opposite of gravity. If it were, it would have complementary features, like repulsion to complement gravitational attraction.

Is "no paper" the opposite of paper? I don't think so.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
    #16714787 - 08/17/12 03:18 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Gravity and paper simply have no opposites.  Its a characteristic that doesn't apply, like asking for the weight of red.  An opposite is a contrived and not universal concept.  Some people do have mystical attachment to the idea of 'opposite', but in my experience its not a concept worth spending much thought on.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
    #16714830 - 08/17/12 03:26 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
"No gravity" is not the opposite of gravity. If it were, it would have complementary features, like repulsion to complement gravitational attraction.

Is "no paper" the opposite of paper? I don't think so.



Then this premise is wrong too:
"P3 Everything/something is the opposite of nothing. "

Oh hehe, I think that's what you said :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16714836 - 08/17/12 03:27 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

A premise cant really be wrong though.  It is assumed for the sake of discussion.  It can however be nonsensical and/or irrelevant to the conclusion.  In this case I would say all three are nonsensical and irrelevant to the conclusion.


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InvisibleAbsolute

Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
    #16714843 - 08/17/12 03:29 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Premises can be false.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
    #16714844 - 08/17/12 03:29 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises) :smile:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: Diploid]
    #16714853 - 08/17/12 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Hmm I think the opposite is only a scale which refers to some arbitrarily man-made scale, like temperature, light, etc...
The opposites are only full or nothing :sun:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16714859 - 08/17/12 03:32 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises) :smile:




That is a key distinction that is taught in intro logic.  A valid vs sound argument.  This argument here may be valid, but it is not sound.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
    #16714863 - 08/17/12 03:34 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Then, under these premises (even if they are wrong) the conclusion is maybe right (but only considered under false premises) :smile:




That is a key distinction that is taught in intro logic.  A valid vs sound argument.  This argument here may be valid, but it is not sound.



But it would be only fair to inform the informer about his/her false premises, and then see if they really are false or not :sun:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16714871 - 08/17/12 03:35 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Thats what I did in my first post.  IME, most fallacious arguments come from nonsensical premises rather than poor logic.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
    #16714884 - 08/17/12 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

:thumbup:
So just let's see 'opposite' as the thing contrary to its existence :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote] * 1
    #16714902 - 08/17/12 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
:thumbup:
So just let's see 'opposite' as the thing contrary to its existence :smile:




Thats a nonsense definition IMO.  Its a poetic obfuscation rather than a lucid explanation.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: DieCommie]
    #16714916 - 08/17/12 03:43 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

How would you define it ?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Could y'all take this apart for me (yet gently!) [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16714928 - 08/17/12 03:45 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Opposite?  I would use traditional definition that a google search brings up.  A definition that cannot be applied like it has been in this thread.  Its a highly contextual concept which is why its useless when applied to universal notions.


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