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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17194748 - 11/10/12 09:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
I respectfully disagree; removing the battery and/or turning the phone off is not enough, as discussed in the following points:

1. BATTERY OUT. The following post, quoted from page 2, shows that phones have an internal battery; they _always_ have enough juice to pulse a simple "I am here" message back to a tower.




Not true - phones can not communicate at all without the battery.

Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT, INTERNAL BATTERY RIPPED OUT, PHONE OFF. Worst-case scenario, and very few users will be in this category, but I think that that it is still possible to locate a device in this state, with the following technique: Emit a high-powered broadcast from a tower. The oscillator within the phone will emit a little radiation when hit with this burst, enough to locate the phone. Similar to the radiation measured by a "radar detector detector."




That would only work if you were within a few yards of the tower.


Quote:

Enlil said:
In the end, however, whatever the practicality or possibility of tracking/listening are...it would require a warrant in the United States.





The police don't need to get a warrant to track someones cell phone location due to United States v. Skinner.  People don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in this case.  Cell phone companies have special law enforcement websites where cops type in someone cell phone #, and it tracks them.  The websites have no oversight, and even local cops do this at the drop of a hat - it's one of their favorite tricks.

http://rt.com/usa/news/police-track-cell-court-979

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17194891 - 11/10/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

First, Skinner is only binding in the sixth circuit.

Second, Skinner deals with a phone that is already sending gps data.  This can be stopped by turning off the gps function of your phone.  The court heavily relied on the fact that the skinner voluntarily had his phone set to transmit his location.  This is why he had no expectation of privacy.

This is a VERY different situation from one where the cops, by any means, turn on and use the gps functioning of someone's phone without their consent or knowledge.  And, of course, the case doesn't address eavesdropping.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17196230 - 11/10/12 03:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Having said that, I do find it to be very odd that you cling to these theories of what MIGHT be theoretically be possible with a phone




In an earlier post, you stated:

Quote:

Enlil said:
And they don't communicate when on if you put them in airplane mode.



The E911 test proves this claim false; a device can be made to communicate even when a phone is "secured" in airplane mode.

My point? There was something that you didn't know; a technology of which you were unaware came to light. I "cling to these theories," for the the other proposed "secure" solutions (battery out, phone off, etc.), because I see technical work-arounds.

Quote:

Enlil said:
by claiming that you would like to be 100% certain that it is off the grid...yet you endorse a $10 product claiming to give you this 100% certainty without ever questioning the validity of that claim.  Where are the laboratory tests showing that this product completely shields all rf?



Meh.. weak. I suppose we could do a "consumer reports" study on the effectiveness of each brand of shielding cases, but a shielding case is designed to, well, shield communications signals.

Quote:

Enlil said:
In the end, however, whatever the practicality or possibility of tracking/listening are...it would require a warrant in the United States.  In addition, it would not be legal for them to listen and record 24/7. That wouldn't be legal with a planted bug, either.  This is, of course, something about which I am an expert.



On all this I agree, and acknowledge that this is your turf. Forthwith, aren't the people who track this stuff above the law, and/or do they have easy access to rubber-stamp warrants? How would one go about proving that these laws had been violated?

REALLY interesting to me is the body of law that's been developed to protect the citizen in these matters. This is what I want to go to law school for. Would mind citing the law in this? Is it Federal/FCC, State, or other?

Regardless, this has been a very fruitful discussion. Would you agree to the following rank for device security, from weakest to strongest?

1. NORMAL OPERATION: Most Insecure. Geolocator installed in phone enables location tracking, malware can enables remote microphone activation,  location is displayed on Google Maps, etc.
2. AIRPLANE MODE: Insecure. E911 call proves this. Phone can be "popped out" of airplane mode if necessary.
3. PHONE OFF: Jury's out
4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out
5. PHONE OUT, BATTERY OUT: Jury's out
6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 04:24 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196254 - 11/10/12 03:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

1. NORMAL OPERATION: Most Insecure. Geolocator installed in phone enables location tracking, malware can enables remote microphone activation,  location is displayed on Google Maps, etc.




Also it doesn't matter if the GPS is off, the time difference between when your signal hits the 3 cell phone antennas triangulates you.

Quote:

2. AIRPLANE MODE: Insecure. E911 call proves this. Phone can be "popped out" of airplane mode if necessary.




Airplane mode is probably secure, however a malicious software update could change that.  Unlikely they would do that though - most people take the battery out rather than use airplane mode.

Quote:

3. PHONE OFF: Jury's out





The phone doesn't transmit when it's off, but a malicious software update could change that.

Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out





The jury isn't out on this one - The phone definitely won't transmit with the battery out.  It wouldn't be cost / space effective to add a separate battery just so it can transmit with no battery.  It would be easy to take a phone apart and verify this, but trust me, they use every millimeter they can in those phones, there won't be any unnecessary components.  I have taken apart hundreds of cell phones.

Quote:

6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure




Your phone would likely work fine in the blocking case if you were very close to a tower.

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.

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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17196290 - 11/10/12 04:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out





The jury isn't out on this one - The phone definitely won't transmit with the battery out.  It wouldn't be cost / space effective to add a separate battery just so it can transmit with no battery.  It would be easy to take a phone apart and verify this, but trust me, they use every millimeter they can in those phones, there won't be any unnecessary components.  I have taken apart hundreds of cell phones.




Everyone keeps saying this, but no one is providing an intelligent counter-argument to the technical innovation that I proposed, which I restate here:

Transmit a strong burst of energy at a frequency that will cause the oscillator in the device to reflect a small amount of energy, and listen for this emission. This could be done from either a tower or a car with a radar-gun like device. Similar to a "radar detector-detector," except that the small amount of measurable energy is a reflection of the burst (as opposed to energy from a car's cigarette lighter that powers a radar detector).

To make an analogy, think of shining a floodlight on the ground looking for the reflection of a coin that you've dropped. The floodlight is the burst; your eye, the radar detector-detector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_detector_detector

Honestly this seems pretty simple and easy to me, and I bet that a standard radar detector detector could be modified to accomplish this.

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure




Your phone would likely work fine in the blocking case if you were very close to a tower.

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.




:hmm: What gaps are you talking about?

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 04:10 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196426 - 11/10/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"Forthwith" means "immediately."

As far as people "above the law", I've known several people who believe this kind of thing, but I don't engage in that kind of speculation.  I have never seen anything to indicate that there is anything resembling a shadowy group of people who are above the law.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17196565 - 11/10/12 05:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
"Forthwith" means "immediately."

As far as people "above the law", I've known several people who believe this kind of thing, but I don't engage in that kind of speculation.  I have never seen anything to indicate that there is anything resembling a shadowy group of people who are above the law.



Do you have any citations to law(s) defining and/or protecting the electronic privacy rights of the citizen, at the Federal or State level?

Probably a stupid question; I can't see the powers at be rushing to provide the individual with electronic privacy rights. I'm sure it will take some landmark court cases in the next 10-20 years to establish a precedent for these laws.

I wonder if there's any money in this. :money:

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 05:12 PM)

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196750 - 11/10/12 05:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Transmit a strong burst of energy at a frequency that will cause the oscillator in the device to reflect a small amount of energy, and listen for this emission. This could be done from either a tower or a car with a radar-gun like device. Similar to a "radar detector-detector," except that the small amount of measurable energy is a reflection of the burst (as opposed to energy from a car's cigarette lighter that powers a radar detector).





Technically impossible for several reasons.  And even if the oscillator does transmit radio waves when energized with other radio waves, which is unlikely, that would only tell them that there was a phone, not which phone it was.

Quote:

Honestly this seems pretty simple and easy to me, and I bet that a standard radar detector detector could be modified to accomplish this.




No.  And if it was possible, which it isn't, a radar detector would be the wrong device for the task.  The correct device is high power transmitter, a sensitive receiver, an expensive duplexer and big directional antennas.  And the range would be very short - less than 20 meters.


Quote:

Quote:

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.




:hmm: What gaps are you talking about?




The flap where you open the case.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17198642 - 11/11/12 12:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wrapping a Smartphone in lead to Remove it From the Grid*

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: s240779]
    #17200200 - 11/11/12 09:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There is no reason to use lead instead of tinfoil.  Phones don't communicate with radioactive particles.

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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17322405 - 12/02/12 06:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

And you fuckers all gave me the tinfoil hat for this thread... :tinfoil:

@6:56, "...what probable cause did they have to [begin surveillance on this person]"

This shit is completely above the law. Probable cause is laughable at that level.

Privacy will be the next "big thing."

Oh, and by the way, don't trust this motherfucker either. I bet that he's bought and paid, and his whole position is a puppet show. What he DIDN'T bring up, what I believe, and what is most disconcerting, is that your location and patterns of movement are also being logged.



--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/02/12 06:47 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17322543 - 12/02/12 06:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Lol..he makes a lot of claims, but not a lot of it makes any sense.  We certainly haven't seen any of this ubiquitous surveillance used against people in court


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17322824 - 12/02/12 07:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol..he makes a lot of claims, but not a lot of it makes any sense.  We certainly haven't seen any of this ubiquitous surveillance used against people in court



How does it not make sense? They're logging personal information that is, I assert, protected under our 4th amendment rights.

As far as being used in court, if, through the use of this information, it is determined that someone is a terrorist under the Patriot act, they can be detained without any court intervention.

There's several different topics here:

1. What is the entirety of the data being logged? Emails? Text messages? Voice conversations? Patterns of movement logged by GPS signals? Purchases? Facial recognition data? All of the above? Where does it end?
2. What limits, if any, are there on the government to collect this information about individuals?
3. What is ( and isn't) protected under our 4th amendment rights?
4. Is there any kind of "electronic search warrant" that is required to access this information?
5. In this sea of data, what is admissible in court?

All these issues will take at least a decade to sort out, and I betcha this goes to the supreme court, but of two things I am certain:

1. There's a mint of money to be made here
2. Because of this idiotic drug war, this information puts a lot of decent people at a great deal of risk.

I guess it really depends on how they use this information. If it enables the FBI, CIA, et. al. to prevent terrorist attacks on me and my home, then I'm all for it. On the other hand, if it's used as a basis for a no-knock warrant, then I'd be against it.

What a legal quagmire.

Supreme court rulings aside, the groups involved (FBI, CIA, NSA) are pretty much going to do whatever the hell they want to.



Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/02/12 09:19 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17323497 - 12/02/12 09:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The question is, what ARE you going to do about it? I assume that answer is nothing. Your little tin foil bullshit is not going to protect you from anything. You think a little fuck named chicken.soup is going to circumvent the NSA if they are actively profiling you? Hell no. Quit wasting your breath on trying to convince other people what you believe and just do you, man.

:stoned:


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325094 - 12/03/12 05:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Most of your questions have long been answered by the courts...

The real question is, if they have all of this information, when do they plan to use it?  I've never seen a criminal case where such information was used...so...when are they going to start?  You think they're waiting a decade or two so that they can prosecute people after the statute of limitations has run?

There are really only two possibilities:

1.  The information is being collected and stored, but not used, and
2.  The information isn't being collected or stored.

I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17325644 - 12/03/12 09:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Most of your questions have long been answered by the courts...

The real question is, if they have all of this information, when do they plan to use it?  I've never seen a criminal case where such information was used...so...when are they going to start?  You think they're waiting a decade or two so that they can prosecute people after the statute of limitations has run?

There are really only two possibilities:

1.  The information is being collected and stored, but not used, and
2.  The information isn't being collected or stored.

I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.




So then, it's OK for the police to search our homes, take pictures, and log everything into database; all without a warrant and/or probable cause.

Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, there's no practical difference; this information might as well not exist, right?


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325650 - 12/03/12 09:22 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
So then, it's OK for the police to search our homes, take pictures, and log everything into database; all without a warrant and/or probable cause.



Are you asking or telling?

If you're asking, it's not okay, but I see no indication that it's happening, either.
Quote:


Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, there's no practical difference; this information might as well not exist, right?



I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist except in the minds of a few :tinfoil: types.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325720 - 12/03/12 09:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You been watching Minority Report?


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17325962 - 12/03/12 10:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

QFT (Quoted for Truth :smile:)
Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.



Correct me if I am wrong, but with this statement, you approve government collection and logging of electronic information--without warrant and/or probable cause--in the absence of prosecutions.

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment States:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]




My assertion and counterpoint is that the collection of this information is a violation of 4th amendment rights, irrespective of its use.


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325976 - 12/03/12 10:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with this statement, you approve government collection and logging of electronic information--without warrant and/or probable cause--in the absence of prosecutions.



You're wrong.
Quote:


Quote:

The Fourth Amendment States:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]




My assertion and counterpoint is that the collection of this information is a violation of 4th amendment rights, irrespective of its use.



I agree.  I never said otherwise.

I just don't think anyone is collecting the data.


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