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Anonymous #2
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil] 5
#16714594 - 08/17/12 12:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you need to understand two principles to properly discuss this topic: Network Addressing and Network Broadcasting. Without getting too technical, here are the concepts:
NETWORK ADDRESSING: Every device (e.g., phone, smartphone, iPhone, tablet, computer, etc.) has a couple of ID's. The first is called a Media Access Control (MAC) address (or equivalent). Think of this as the device's social security number. The second is an Internet Protocol (IP) address, which you can think of as your primary email. Both can be used to identify a device on the network.
Example MAC Address: 12-34-56-78-9A-BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
Example IP Address: 192.168.0.1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_address
NETWORK BROADCASTING: Now, given that each device has a unique identifier, to find a device, we can use one of the following basic tools. This stuff is common knowledge; I was taught this in high school, and many times thereafter:
i. Unicast - A transmission to a single interface card. ii. Multicast - A transmission to a group of interface cards on the network. iii. Broadcast - A transmission to all interface cards on the network. http://www.comptechdoc.org/independent/networking/guide/netbroadcasting.html
To locate a phone, we simply need to get it to respond to one of these three messages with either its MAC or IP address. Depending on the state of the phone, this may require different techniques. The scenarios raised in this thread are listed below, and the required technique to locate the device is provided.
It is important to note that there are two basic types of responses from a device: active and passive. Active responses use power from the device to generate a signal; passive responses require no power on the device side. More below.
ACTIVE RESPONSES:
1. NORMAL OPERATION. No surprise here, a phone that's on and operating normally can easily be geolocated with a Unicast, Objective C, Java, even JavaScript, and a variety of other methods. 2. AIRPLANE MODE. Although network responses are "turned off," the phone is still able to respond to a network broadcast. 3. PHONE OFF, WITH BATTERY. Although software will not work, as the OS is not loaded, a small piece of hardware responds to a broadcast message. 4. PHONE OFF, BATTERY PULLED. Things are getting harder, but not impossible. A small capacitor or built-in backup battery could still provide enough power to generate the same response.
PASSIVE RESPONSES. Now, the interesting one. Even when a device has no power, it can be located with a unicast burst from the tower. We're talking battery pulled, no capacitor, no internal battery; DOA, bricked. Basically we SHOUT, "HEY 12-34-56-78-9A-BC, WHERE THE @#$% ARE YOU???," the phone reflects its address back. The GPS location of this reflected transmission is then pinpointed. A multicast and broadcast burst is less accurate, but can be used to achieve a similar result. Here we blast a "CALLING ALL SMARTPHONES!" or even, "CALLING ALL DEVICES!!!" message, grab all the different responses, and try to sort them out. Not very effective in an urban area, but in a rural area with relatively few devices, it can work.
A necessarily simplified analogy would be as follows. Imagine that you're in a pitch-black jewelry store, looking for a specific ruby. You take a picture of the room; the camera flashes on the gemstones. You look at the picture, notice a distinctive red reflection, and easily pick out the ruby that you're looking for. The gemstones by themselves generate no light, but they can reflect the light from the source, and thus be identified. This is the equivalent of a Network Broadcast; the analogy for a Unicast would be to specify a narrow spectrum of light from the camera flash; light that only the ruby that you seek would reflect.
In the same way, a phone can reflect the burst from the tower in the form of its MAC and/or IP address.
@Enlil, Do you think that this is an invasion of privacy? If I officially state that I do not consent to any searches--would a broadcast as above constitute an "unauthorized search" for my location? Would my location be protected under 4th amendment law? Would it be covered under the privacy act? This is an evolving field of law, I hope to start to see litigation evolve in the next decade to put some safeguards in place against this information. It's pretty much the wild wild west out there right now.
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Enlil
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Anonymous #2]
#16714651 - 08/17/12 12:40 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I still have yet to see any knowledgable source cited that says that currently produced phones can be tracked while off..
GPS tracking is a search under the 4th amendment as per a recent SCOTUS decision. Whether a warrant is necessary would depend on the reasonableness of the tracking, I'd assume...
I wouldn't rely too heavily on the "I do not consent" concept.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
#16720094 - 08/18/12 11:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.
No.
It takes a considerable amount of electricity to transmit, and phone manufacturers have a huge incentive to make phones as small as possible. They aren't going to put in a large capacitor or extra battery unless it is necessary to make the phone work.
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Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.
Faraday cages are extremely effective at blocking all RF transmissions. Wrapping a phone in foil creates a faraday cage.
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Enlil said: Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.
Sometimes the feds push a malicious software update to your phone which causes it to transmit audio from the room when it is "off". This dramatically decreases battery life and causes the phone to be hot all the time unless you are extremely close to a cell phone tower. This technology was used in a couple high profile cases but is rarely used. It does not work if the battery is removed.
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nooneman said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
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nooneman said: It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.
Do you have a source for this?
Yes.
Nothing in your sources says that a phone can transmit with the battery removed.
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CidneyIndole
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#16724754 - 08/19/12 03:57 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe OP sounds a little paranoid, but I have heard of the ability for a phone to be remotely activated as a microphone.
Further, I have heard of "wire tapping" cases that might seem to indicate the use of this ability.
I can tell you that if I were up to ANYTHING I didn't want big brother to know, I wouldn't speak around a cell phone with a battery in it. Possibly not around one, regardless of that.
Call me paranoid. I like to think of it as safety.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: CidneyIndole]
#16730396 - 08/20/12 09:03 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
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scarfaceofshrooms
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
#16742232 - 08/27/12 09:37 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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The documentary that's in one of the stickies here.. where some superstar security guy tells you what you would need to do to be "invisible" to any kind of electronics.. like cameras, internet etc.
He said you need to pull out the battery from your cell phone.
He also said that if you have for example a GPS thing in your car where you speak the destination so it can get you a map and directions.. that someone can tap into it and listen to anything going on in the car without you knowing.
So I wouldn't be surprised if they can do the same on cell phones.
The documentary is removed from youtube though.. had something to do with violation of copyright I think... or something.
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Enlil
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: scarfaceofshrooms]
#16742256 - 08/27/12 09:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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In all honesty, I give such videos the same credence that I give the 9/11 conspiracy videos.
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nooneman


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16742348 - 08/27/12 10:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
nooneman said: It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.
No.
It takes a considerable amount of electricity to transmit, and phone manufacturers have a huge incentive to make phones as small as possible. They aren't going to put in a large capacitor or extra battery unless it is necessary to make the phone work.
You later say just the opposite. I never suggested a phone could operate without a battery.
Quote:
Quote:
Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.
Faraday cages are extremely effective at blocking all RF transmissions. Wrapping a phone in foil creates a faraday cage.
As I understand it, faraday cages rely on the spacing between the bars to block frequencies within certain ranges depending on the size of the spacing. Tin foil as I understand it therefore isn't a faraday cage. It must be a cage, and the cage can only block certain frequencies depending on the size of the gaps between the bars.
Quote:
Sometimes the feds push a malicious software update to your phone which causes it to transmit audio from the room when it is "off". This dramatically decreases battery life and causes the phone to be hot all the time unless you are extremely close to a cell phone tower. This technology was used in a couple high profile cases but is rarely used. It does not work if the battery is removed.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I never suggested it could work without a battery.
Quote:
Quote:
nooneman said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
nooneman said: It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.
Do you have a source for this?
Yes.
Nothing in your sources says that a phone can transmit with the battery removed.
I never said a phone could work if the battery was removed. Without a battery obviously it wont work.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: scarfaceofshrooms]
#16748096 - 08/28/12 01:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
scarfaceofshrooms said: He also said that if you have for example a GPS thing in your car where you speak the destination so it can get you a map and directions.. that someone can tap into it and listen to anything going on in the car without you knowing.
I think you are confusing onstar with GPS. GPS is just a radio receiver. No one can tap into it. Onstar has a receiver, gps and transmitter, and therefore can be tapped into.
Quote:
So I wouldn't be surprised if they can do the same on cell phones.
They can, by pushing a malicious software update to your cell phone. The same can be done to your computer.
Quote:
As I understand it, faraday cages rely on the spacing between the bars to block frequencies within certain ranges depending on the size of the spacing. Tin foil as I understand it therefore isn't a faraday cage. It must be a cage, and the cage can only block certain frequencies depending on the size of the gaps between the bars.
Since tinfoil doesn't have gaps between the bars, it is a faraday cage that operates at all frequencies.
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DieCommie

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#16748165 - 08/28/12 01:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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What determines a faraday cage's effectivness is not gaps, like you say. Its the materials 'plasma frequency'.
Strictly speaking a faraday cage blocks static electric fields. It blocks dynamic electric fields (like em waves) only if the frequency of the wave is less than the material's plasma frequency. At these lower frequencies the dynamics of the electric field are so low that they are effectively static.
What determines a materials plasma frequency is simply the mobility of the charge carriers in the substance. If the electrons are free to move very easily you have a conductor and you have a high plasma frequency. So even high frequency em radiation can be attenuated by the electrons since they have the ability to 'keep up' with the changing field.
IIRC, aluminum has a plasma frequency higher than the frequency cell phones use, so it should act as a faraday cage in this case.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
#16795512 - 09/05/12 09:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/04/fbi-no-evidence-apple-device-udids-leaked/
FBI: “No Evidence” Apple Device UDIDs Were Leaked From Our Laptop DARRELL ETHERINGTONposted yesterday8 Comments Earlier today, hackers at AntiSec claimed that they had got their hands on a database containing around 12 million UDID numbers from iPads and iPhones from an FBI employee-owned computer, a breach my colleague Sarah Perez described the significance behind and possible ramifications of in a post earlier today. Now, however, the FBI issued a statement to AllThingsD that refutes the claim.
“The FBI is aware of published reports alleging that an FBI laptop was compromised and private data regarding Apple UDIDs was exposed,” reads the statement. “At this time there is no evidence indicating that an FBI laptop was compromised or that the FBI either sought or obtained this data.”
The FBI has also tweeted that the report is “TOTALLY FALSE” [emphasis in the original], yet AntiSec did in fact release 1 million of its reported 12 million stolen IDs earlier, and tools have cropped up that let you check if you’re affected. Long story short, the FBI statement (which doesn’t actually say anything about the real source of the information, only that evidence isn’t there to suggest it was stolen in the manner described) really raises more questions than anything else. We’ll keep you posted as this develops.
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
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Yheringaan



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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16856065 - 09/16/12 12:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
ch1ck3n.s0up said: First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery
How would they do that?
Quote:
My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.
--Chicken
Faraday cages work.
I would think it would work exactly like rfid chips. When the initial signal is sent out from something, the energy from it is used to power the rfid so it can send it's signal back out to be recieved. If something like that is in a cell phone would be the actual question though..
Like someone else mentioned, airplane mode seems to cease all wireless communications as well.
Edit- I should mention rfid technology can supposedly only work within a pretty short distance.
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Edited by Yheringaan (09/16/12 12:16 PM)
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ComputerTekGuy
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Yheringaan]
#16863404 - 09/17/12 03:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Figure i'd chime in. Old fox news report. I guess they used this back in the day to get some mobsters / gang leaders. I work on cell phones. I wont say that this is impossible to do, I just dont know how they'd go about it. Especially with a smart phone, but flip phones and feature phones I could see it being done.
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ComputerTekGuy
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
#16863441 - 09/17/12 03:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most LG feature phones have these inside them. I've notice if disconnected or broken then the speaker in the phone doesnt work. But maybe that's just one model i've worked on.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
#16873607 - 09/19/12 09:06 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ComputerTekGuy said: I just dont know how they'd go about it. Especially with a smart phone, but flip phones and feature phones I could see it being done.
They send a malicious software update to your phone. The new software transmits the audio that the microphone receives all the time, or records the audio, compresses it and uploads the compressed data.
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Enlil
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16873651 - 09/19/12 09:16 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Transmitting all the time would kill the battery in a matter of hours, and recording for later data transmission would probably run afoul of the 4th amendments minimization requirements.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
#16873701 - 09/19/12 09:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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It probably transmits all the time when the feature is activated. If the phone was close to a tower, this wouldn't take much power since the transmitter is turned down to a couple milliwatts. If the person is far from a tower, that would kill the battery very quickly and make the phone always hot.
They probably activate the feature manually and only leave it on if you are doing something interesting.
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Enlil
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16873745 - 09/19/12 09:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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That doesn't make much sense either. If it's being used as a bug, the only way to tell if there is something worth listening to is by listening to it...that means having it transmit 24/7. The drain on the battery would be significant. It would be noticed by all but the most unaware of people.
Not to mention the fact that to get a warrant for such surveillance would take a great deal of probable cause. That is probably one of the most intrusive forms of surveillance that the police could use, and it's unlikely that a judge would grant a warrant for more than a few days.
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unknown1123
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
#16873762 - 09/19/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pahaha warrant... You funny enlil. You local joe blow cop isn't using this, maybe they are but this is more shell corps of cia,nsa, dhs.
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Enlil
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: unknown1123]
#16873801 - 09/19/12 09:47 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're sounding pretty
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