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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid
    #16704862 - 08/15/12 01:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Peeps,

Turning one's phone off and wrapping one's phone in tin foil seems to be an effective technique for removing it from the grid for a short time.

I have a Samsung Galaxy II, and when wrapped in tin foil, it goes into some weird mode that occurs at no other time. The "bars" indicator completely disappears, and it tries to make a wifi connection, which then fails, and I end up with a strange question-mark-wifi-logo.

Most unsettling is that I turned it off _before_ wrapping it, and powered it back on _after_ unwrapping it. One would think that since the power was off during the entire time that it was wrapped, it wouldn't be searching for a network connection, yet it still went into this weird mode when powered back on.

Although we've talked about it a number of times here, and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off, it was a bit unsettling to see my on personal phone's reaction to being forcibly removed from the grid by several layers of tin foil. Almost like it didn't like being off the grid; like a fish out of water, gasping for air, it was fighting hard to get that network connection back!

Also, I don't think that removing the battery is a good idea. First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery, and it wouldn't surprise me if there was a capacitor or small battery of some kind built into the phone to provide enough power to simply blip an answer to a "where are you?" call from a tower. In some handsets the battery can't be removed. Finally, on a practical level, yanking the battery can whack some of the numbers in your text messaging and some other info that's an annoyance to get back.

I would also add that one should be smart about where one wraps and unwraps--preferably in common, public areas. Don't wrap it while parked in front of your lover's door before you go in--that's just plain stupid.

My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.

--Chicken

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (08/15/12 02:00 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16704881 - 08/15/12 01:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off,



No they don't...I don't know where you got this idea...but they don't...

And they don't communicate when on if you put them in airplane mode.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 2
    #16704893 - 08/15/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps the tinfoil would be more effective wrapped around your head?

Pull the battery if you're that paranoid. (yes... I read what you wrote)


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16704922 - 08/15/12 02:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off,



No they don't...I don't know where you got this idea...but they don't...

And they don't communicate

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16705521 - 08/15/12 05:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I dont understand why you have the phone at all if you actually believe this.

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OfflineMushroom-Man
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16706370 - 08/15/12 08:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Try two layers around your head

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16706741 - 08/15/12 09:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery





How would they do that?

Quote:

My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.

--Chicken





Faraday cages work.

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 1
    #16710468 - 08/16/12 03:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.

Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710548 - 08/16/12 04:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.





Do you have a source for this?


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16710863 - 08/16/12 07:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.





Do you have a source for this?



Yes.

http://www.examiner.com/article/bin-laden-taken-down-by-cell-phone
Quote:


One of bin Laden’s most trusted couriers, according to reports, lived in the compound and ran it in a technologically secure fashion. The main house had no telephone or internet connections. According to the Washington Post, the courier carried a cell phone, but always had the battery out of it. A CIA safe house nearby monitored surrounding cell phone calls, but the courier never put the battery in the phone, let alone turned it on, until he was at least 90 minutes away from the compound.





http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2011/05/03/bin-laden-grid-govt-help-expert-says/#ixzz23lFTy3xV
Quote:


Reports suggest that the only way U.S. military analysts were able to see through bin Laden's anonymous, unplugged existence was a single cell phone call from his courier -- who reportedly turned off his phone and removed the battery after hanging up just to stay off grid.





Here's what Al Qaeda tells their operatives about cell phones:
http://books.google.com/books?id=smP3gFyQpXQC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote:


Do not receive a phone at your residence, do so at a bazaar or at an open space and shut off the phone and disconnect the battery as soon as you finish the conversation.





Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
Quote:


In some instances law enforcement may even access a mobile phone's internal microphone to eavesdrop on local conversations while the phone is switched off.[9]




CNET reporting on it
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html
Quote:


The surveillance technique came to light in an opinion published this week by U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan. He ruled that the "roving bug" was legal because federal wiretapping law is broad enough to permit eavesdropping even of conversations that take place near a suspect's cell phone.

Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off."




Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 07:20 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710910 - 08/16/12 07:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

yeah...none of those stories about bin laden say anything about tracking with the phone off, and some judge's opinion isn't exactly a reliable source...

I have strong doubts about this.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16710942 - 08/16/12 07:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sure that Al Qaeda is just advising people to take the batteries out of their phones for no reason, and that this district judge working with federal wiretap cases has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to wiretapping.

Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 07:34 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710978 - 08/16/12 07:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I agree.  Most likely, it's bullshit.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16710991 - 08/16/12 07:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What part of it do you find implausible?

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16711013 - 08/16/12 07:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

First, a phone in the off position can't transmit or it would violate FCC regulations when it is on a plane.

Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.

Finally, smartphones...or any digital phone...has to boot in order to run the software to even translate audio into digital and communicate....if they stayed ready to do that, there would be no need for a boot...


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Anonymous #1

Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16711016 - 08/16/12 07:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:popcorn:

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16711030 - 08/16/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe he is confusing 'Off' with 'Screen Off'.  :tongue:

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16711043 - 08/16/12 07:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Look, I don't claim to know the inner workings of every cell phone, but from what I do know about electronics, it would take almost as much power to run the phone while off as it does while on if it was constantly setup to receive data from cell towers...

And the whole thing about listening in...that's crazy...that's be as much power use as a phone call...that would kill the battery in short order.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16711122 - 08/16/12 08:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, a phone in the off position can't transmit or it would violate FCC regulations when it is on a plane.



I don't know the FCC regulations well enough to argue this point. What specific regulations are you refering to? I suspect that if it CAN but DOESN'T it will still comply. I also suspect there may be exceptions for things like wiretapping.

Quote:


Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.



Current does continue to run through your phone 24/7 (not as much obviously), that's why if you take your battery out you can say goodbye to any information that isn't stored in flash memory.

Have you heard of wake on lan? Standard functionality, will turn a computer on that is currently off just by sending it a signal over the network. Your phone, like your computer, can still recieve data over the network while off. Alert on Lan 2 even allows you to remotely alter the operating system, update the bios, and reboot the system among other things.
Quote:


Finally, smartphones...or any digital phone...has to boot in order to run the software to even translate audio into digital and communicate....if they stayed ready to do that, there would be no need for a boot...



Smartphones don't need to boot to do things. Grabbing audio from the microphone is trivial and shipping it out the network connection is also trivial. You don't need software at any point in the process. Hardware converts the audio into a digital representation, not software. You don't even need software to access the flash memory. Even the network connection itself is handled in hardware and has very little to do with the processor. ICs often have power connections seperate from the CPU, especially networking and graphics related ICs.

Beyond that, it is possible to make your phone "wake on wireless" without your knowledge and to subsequently do whatever (record you, take pictures, download stuff, etc.). Microphones require very small amounts of electricity. Your phone's microphone is not responsible at all for it's short battery life.

Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 08:59 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16713189 - 08/17/12 05:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with pretty much all of your last post.  This isn't the forum for it, so I'm not going to go back and forth about how the technology works.

It's certainly possible to build a cell phone that can be controlled even when in the "off" position, but there is no practical reason for manufactureres to do something like that.  It would have many, many drawbacks and would make their products less competitive.  The only reason a manufacturer would build that kind of functionality into the phone is if they had to because of some law...and there is no such law.


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