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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid
    #16704862 - 08/15/12 01:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Peeps,

Turning one's phone off and wrapping one's phone in tin foil seems to be an effective technique for removing it from the grid for a short time.

I have a Samsung Galaxy II, and when wrapped in tin foil, it goes into some weird mode that occurs at no other time. The "bars" indicator completely disappears, and it tries to make a wifi connection, which then fails, and I end up with a strange question-mark-wifi-logo.

Most unsettling is that I turned it off _before_ wrapping it, and powered it back on _after_ unwrapping it. One would think that since the power was off during the entire time that it was wrapped, it wouldn't be searching for a network connection, yet it still went into this weird mode when powered back on.

Although we've talked about it a number of times here, and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off, it was a bit unsettling to see my on personal phone's reaction to being forcibly removed from the grid by several layers of tin foil. Almost like it didn't like being off the grid; like a fish out of water, gasping for air, it was fighting hard to get that network connection back!

Also, I don't think that removing the battery is a good idea. First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery, and it wouldn't surprise me if there was a capacitor or small battery of some kind built into the phone to provide enough power to simply blip an answer to a "where are you?" call from a tower. In some handsets the battery can't be removed. Finally, on a practical level, yanking the battery can whack some of the numbers in your text messaging and some other info that's an annoyance to get back.

I would also add that one should be smart about where one wraps and unwraps--preferably in common, public areas. Don't wrap it while parked in front of your lover's door before you go in--that's just plain stupid.

My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.

--Chicken

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (08/15/12 02:00 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16704881 - 08/15/12 01:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off,



No they don't...I don't know where you got this idea...but they don't...

And they don't communicate when on if you put them in airplane mode.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 2
    #16704893 - 08/15/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps the tinfoil would be more effective wrapped around your head?

Pull the battery if you're that paranoid. (yes... I read what you wrote)


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Offlinech1ck3n.s0up
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16704922 - 08/15/12 02:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
and am aware that smartphones communicate even when powered off,



No they don't...I don't know where you got this idea...but they don't...

And they don't communicate

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16705521 - 08/15/12 05:31 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I dont understand why you have the phone at all if you actually believe this.

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OfflineMushroom-Man
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16706370 - 08/15/12 08:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Try two layers around your head

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16706741 - 08/15/12 09:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery





How would they do that?

Quote:

My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.

--Chicken





Faraday cages work.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 1
    #16710468 - 08/16/12 03:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.

Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710548 - 08/16/12 04:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.





Do you have a source for this?


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16710863 - 08/16/12 07:20 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside. This played a huge role in the hunt for Al Qaeda after their commanders determined that turning off their cell phones wasn't preventing their locations from being discovered. This played a role in the hunt for Bin Laden because the only people who met with him would take the batteries out of their cell phones before traveling to see him so that they couldn't be tracked. The US cited this as one of the reasons he was so difficult to find. Still, US law enforcement is almost certainly not using this functionality.





Do you have a source for this?



Yes.

http://www.examiner.com/article/bin-laden-taken-down-by-cell-phone
Quote:


One of bin Laden’s most trusted couriers, according to reports, lived in the compound and ran it in a technologically secure fashion. The main house had no telephone or internet connections. According to the Washington Post, the courier carried a cell phone, but always had the battery out of it. A CIA safe house nearby monitored surrounding cell phone calls, but the courier never put the battery in the phone, let alone turned it on, until he was at least 90 minutes away from the compound.





http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2011/05/03/bin-laden-grid-govt-help-expert-says/#ixzz23lFTy3xV
Quote:


Reports suggest that the only way U.S. military analysts were able to see through bin Laden's anonymous, unplugged existence was a single cell phone call from his courier -- who reportedly turned off his phone and removed the battery after hanging up just to stay off grid.





Here's what Al Qaeda tells their operatives about cell phones:
http://books.google.com/books?id=smP3gFyQpXQC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote:


Do not receive a phone at your residence, do so at a bazaar or at an open space and shut off the phone and disconnect the battery as soon as you finish the conversation.





Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
Quote:


In some instances law enforcement may even access a mobile phone's internal microphone to eavesdrop on local conversations while the phone is switched off.[9]




CNET reporting on it
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html
Quote:


The surveillance technique came to light in an opinion published this week by U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan. He ruled that the "roving bug" was legal because federal wiretapping law is broad enough to permit eavesdropping even of conversations that take place near a suspect's cell phone.

Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off."




Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 07:20 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710910 - 08/16/12 07:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

yeah...none of those stories about bin laden say anything about tracking with the phone off, and some judge's opinion isn't exactly a reliable source...

I have strong doubts about this.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16710942 - 08/16/12 07:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sure that Al Qaeda is just advising people to take the batteries out of their phones for no reason, and that this district judge working with federal wiretap cases has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to wiretapping.

Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 07:34 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16710978 - 08/16/12 07:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I agree.  Most likely, it's bullshit.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16710991 - 08/16/12 07:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What part of it do you find implausible?

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16711013 - 08/16/12 07:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

First, a phone in the off position can't transmit or it would violate FCC regulations when it is on a plane.

Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.

Finally, smartphones...or any digital phone...has to boot in order to run the software to even translate audio into digital and communicate....if they stayed ready to do that, there would be no need for a boot...


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Anonymous #1

Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16711016 - 08/16/12 07:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:popcorn:

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16711030 - 08/16/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe he is confusing 'Off' with 'Screen Off'.  :tongue:

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16711043 - 08/16/12 07:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Look, I don't claim to know the inner workings of every cell phone, but from what I do know about electronics, it would take almost as much power to run the phone while off as it does while on if it was constantly setup to receive data from cell towers...

And the whole thing about listening in...that's crazy...that's be as much power use as a phone call...that would kill the battery in short order.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16711122 - 08/16/12 08:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, a phone in the off position can't transmit or it would violate FCC regulations when it is on a plane.



I don't know the FCC regulations well enough to argue this point. What specific regulations are you refering to? I suspect that if it CAN but DOESN'T it will still comply. I also suspect there may be exceptions for things like wiretapping.

Quote:


Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.



Current does continue to run through your phone 24/7 (not as much obviously), that's why if you take your battery out you can say goodbye to any information that isn't stored in flash memory.

Have you heard of wake on lan? Standard functionality, will turn a computer on that is currently off just by sending it a signal over the network. Your phone, like your computer, can still recieve data over the network while off. Alert on Lan 2 even allows you to remotely alter the operating system, update the bios, and reboot the system among other things.
Quote:


Finally, smartphones...or any digital phone...has to boot in order to run the software to even translate audio into digital and communicate....if they stayed ready to do that, there would be no need for a boot...



Smartphones don't need to boot to do things. Grabbing audio from the microphone is trivial and shipping it out the network connection is also trivial. You don't need software at any point in the process. Hardware converts the audio into a digital representation, not software. You don't even need software to access the flash memory. Even the network connection itself is handled in hardware and has very little to do with the processor. ICs often have power connections seperate from the CPU, especially networking and graphics related ICs.

Beyond that, it is possible to make your phone "wake on wireless" without your knowledge and to subsequently do whatever (record you, take pictures, download stuff, etc.). Microphones require very small amounts of electricity. Your phone's microphone is not responsible at all for it's short battery life.

Edited by nooneman (08/16/12 08:59 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16713189 - 08/17/12 05:09 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with pretty much all of your last post.  This isn't the forum for it, so I'm not going to go back and forth about how the technology works.

It's certainly possible to build a cell phone that can be controlled even when in the "off" position, but there is no practical reason for manufactureres to do something like that.  It would have many, many drawbacks and would make their products less competitive.  The only reason a manufacturer would build that kind of functionality into the phone is if they had to because of some law...and there is no such law.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil] * 5
    #16714594 - 08/17/12 12:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So you need to understand two principles to properly discuss this topic: Network Addressing and Network Broadcasting. Without getting too technical, here are the concepts:

NETWORK ADDRESSING: Every device (e.g., phone, smartphone, iPhone, tablet, computer, etc.) has a couple of ID's. The first is called a Media Access Control (MAC) address (or equivalent). Think of this as the device's social security number. The second is an Internet Protocol (IP) address, which you can think of as your primary email. Both can be used to identify a device on the network.

Example MAC Address: 12-34-56-78-9A-BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address

Example IP Address: 192.168.0.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_address

NETWORK BROADCASTING: Now, given that each device has a unique identifier, to find a device, we can use one of the following basic tools. This stuff is common knowledge; I was taught this in high school, and many times thereafter:

i. Unicast - A transmission to a single interface card.
ii. Multicast - A transmission to a group of interface cards on the network.
iii. Broadcast - A transmission to all interface cards on the network.
http://www.comptechdoc.org/independent/networking/guide/netbroadcasting.html

To locate a phone, we simply need to get it to respond to one of these three messages with either its MAC or IP address. Depending on the state of the phone, this may require different techniques. The scenarios raised in this thread are listed below, and the required technique to locate the device is provided.

It is important to note that there are two basic types of responses from a device: active and passive. Active responses use power from the device to generate a signal; passive responses require no power on the device side. More below.

ACTIVE RESPONSES:

1. NORMAL OPERATION. No surprise here, a phone that's on and operating normally can easily be geolocated with a Unicast, Objective C, Java, even JavaScript, and a variety of other methods.
2. AIRPLANE MODE. Although network responses are "turned off," the phone is still able to respond to a network broadcast.
3. PHONE OFF, WITH BATTERY. Although software will not work, as the OS is not loaded, a small piece of hardware responds to a broadcast message.
4. PHONE OFF, BATTERY PULLED. Things are getting harder, but not impossible. A small capacitor or built-in backup battery could still provide enough power to generate the same response.

PASSIVE RESPONSES. Now, the interesting one. Even when a device has no power, it can be located with a unicast burst from the tower. We're talking battery pulled, no capacitor, no internal battery; DOA, bricked. Basically we SHOUT, "HEY 12-34-56-78-9A-BC, WHERE THE @#$% ARE YOU???," the phone reflects its address back. The GPS location of this reflected transmission is then pinpointed. A multicast and broadcast burst is less accurate, but can be used to achieve a similar result. Here we blast a "CALLING ALL SMARTPHONES!" or even, "CALLING ALL DEVICES!!!" message, grab all the different responses, and try to sort them out. Not very effective in an urban area, but in a rural area with relatively few devices, it can work.

A necessarily simplified analogy would be as follows. Imagine that you're in a pitch-black jewelry store, looking for a specific ruby. You take a picture of the room; the camera flashes on the gemstones. You look at the picture, notice a distinctive red reflection, and easily pick out the ruby that you're looking for. The gemstones by themselves generate no light, but they can reflect the light from the source, and thus be identified. This is the equivalent of a Network Broadcast; the analogy for a Unicast would be to specify a narrow spectrum of light from the camera flash; light that only the ruby that you seek would reflect.

In the same way, a phone can reflect the burst from the tower in the form of its MAC and/or IP address.

@Enlil, Do you think that this is an invasion of privacy? If I officially state that I do not consent to any searches--would a broadcast as above constitute an "unauthorized search" for my location? Would my location be protected under 4th amendment law? Would it be covered under the privacy act? This is an evolving field of law, I hope to start to see litigation evolve in the next decade to put some safeguards in place against this information. It's pretty much the wild wild west out there right now.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #16714651 - 08/17/12 12:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I still have yet to see any knowledgable source cited that says that currently produced phones can be tracked while off..

GPS tracking is a search under the 4th amendment as per a recent SCOTUS decision.  Whether a warrant is necessary would depend on the reasonableness of the tracking, I'd assume...

I wouldn't rely too heavily on the "I do not consent" concept.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: nooneman]
    #16720094 - 08/18/12 11:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.





No.

It takes a considerable amount of electricity to transmit, and phone manufacturers have a huge incentive to make phones as small as possible.  They aren't going to put in a large capacitor or extra battery unless it is necessary to make the phone work.

Quote:

Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.




Faraday cages are extremely effective at blocking all RF transmissions.  Wrapping a phone in foil creates a faraday cage.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Second, the only way something could trigger the phone to transmit when off is if the phone continued to receive data while off...if this were the case, I couldn't leave my phone off for a week and have a full battery at the end of the week.




Sometimes the feds push a malicious software update to your phone which causes it to transmit audio from the room when it is "off".  This dramatically decreases battery life and causes the phone to be hot all the time unless you are extremely close to a cell phone tower.  This technology was used in a couple high profile cases but is rarely used.  It does not work if the battery is removed.

Quote:

nooneman said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.




Do you have a source for this?



Yes.





Nothing in your sources says that a phone can transmit with the battery removed.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #16724754 - 08/19/12 03:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe OP sounds a little paranoid, but I have heard of the ability for a phone to be remotely activated as a microphone.

Further, I have heard of "wire tapping" cases that might seem to indicate the use of this ability.

I can tell you that if I were up to ANYTHING I didn't want big brother to know, I wouldn't speak around a cell phone with a battery in it. Possibly not around one, regardless of that.

Call me paranoid. I like to think of it as safety.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #16730396 - 08/20/12 09:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)



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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16742232 - 08/27/12 09:37 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The documentary that's in one of the stickies here.. where some superstar security guy tells you what you would need to do to be "invisible" to any kind of electronics.. like cameras, internet etc.

He said you need to pull out the battery from your cell phone.

He also said that if you have for example a GPS thing in your car where you speak the destination so it can get you a map and directions.. that someone can tap into it and listen to anything going on in the car without you knowing.

So I wouldn't be surprised if they can do the same on cell phones.

The documentary is removed from youtube though..
had something to do with violation of copyright I think... or something.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: scarfaceofshrooms]
    #16742256 - 08/27/12 09:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

In all honesty, I give such videos the same credence that I give the 9/11 conspiracy videos.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #16742348 - 08/27/12 10:01 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.





No.

It takes a considerable amount of electricity to transmit, and phone manufacturers have a huge incentive to make phones as small as possible.  They aren't going to put in a large capacitor or extra battery unless it is necessary to make the phone work.




You later say just the opposite. I never suggested a phone could operate without a battery.
Quote:


Quote:

Tin foil is the absolute worst solution ever. It will boost signal, not diminish it. Ever owned an old TV with an antenna? Wrap the antenna in tinfoil and it will work a lot better. Also, it's insanely suspicious to have a cell phone wrapped in tin foil. Plus everyone will laugh at you.




Faraday cages are extremely effective at blocking all RF transmissions.  Wrapping a phone in foil creates a faraday cage.




As I understand it, faraday cages rely on the spacing between the bars to block frequencies within certain ranges depending on the size of the spacing. Tin foil as I understand it therefore isn't a faraday cage. It must be a cage, and the cage can only block certain frequencies depending on the size of the gaps between the bars.
Quote:


Sometimes the feds push a malicious software update to your phone which causes it to transmit audio from the room when it is "off".  This dramatically decreases battery life and causes the phone to be hot all the time unless you are extremely close to a cell phone tower.  This technology was used in a couple high profile cases but is rarely used.  It does not work if the battery is removed.




This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I never suggested it could work without a battery.
Quote:


Quote:

nooneman said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
It's little known, but cell phones really can communicate while off if the battery is still inside.




Do you have a source for this?



Yes.





Nothing in your sources says that a phone can transmit with the battery removed.



I never said a phone could work if the battery was removed. Without a battery obviously it wont work.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: scarfaceofshrooms]
    #16748096 - 08/28/12 01:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

scarfaceofshrooms said:
He also said that if you have for example a GPS thing in your car where you speak the destination so it can get you a map and directions.. that someone can tap into it and listen to anything going on in the car without you knowing.




I think you are confusing onstar with GPS.  GPS is just a radio receiver.  No one can tap into it.  Onstar has a receiver, gps and transmitter, and therefore can be tapped into.



Quote:

So I wouldn't be surprised if they can do the same on cell phones.





They can, by pushing a malicious software update to your cell phone.  The same can be done to your computer.

Quote:

As I understand it, faraday cages rely on the spacing between the bars to block frequencies within certain ranges depending on the size of the spacing. Tin foil as I understand it therefore isn't a faraday cage. It must be a cage, and the cage can only block certain frequencies depending on the size of the gaps between the bars.




Since tinfoil doesn't have gaps between the bars, it is a faraday cage that operates at all frequencies.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #16748165 - 08/28/12 01:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

What determines a faraday cage's effectivness is not gaps, like you say.  Its the materials 'plasma frequency'.

Strictly speaking a faraday cage blocks static electric fields.  It blocks dynamic electric fields (like em waves) only if the frequency of the wave is less than the material's plasma frequency.  At these lower frequencies the dynamics of the electric field are so low that they are effectively static.

What determines a materials plasma frequency is simply the mobility of the charge carriers in the substance.  If the electrons are free to move very easily you have a conductor and you have a high plasma frequency.  So even high frequency em radiation can be attenuated by the electrons since they have the ability to 'keep up' with the changing field.

IIRC, aluminum has a plasma frequency higher than the frequency cell phones use, so it should act as a faraday cage in this case.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16795512 - 09/05/12 09:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/04/fbi-no-evidence-apple-device-udids-leaked/

FBI: “No Evidence” Apple Device UDIDs Were Leaked From Our Laptop
DARRELL ETHERINGTONposted yesterday8 Comments
Earlier today, hackers at AntiSec claimed that they had got their hands on a database containing around 12 million UDID numbers from iPads and iPhones from an FBI employee-owned computer, a breach my colleague Sarah Perez described the significance behind and possible ramifications of in a post earlier today. Now, however, the FBI issued a statement to AllThingsD that refutes the claim.

“The FBI is aware of published reports alleging that an FBI laptop was compromised and private data regarding Apple UDIDs was exposed,” reads the statement. “At this time there is no evidence indicating that an FBI laptop was compromised or that the FBI either sought or obtained this data.”

The FBI has also tweeted that the report is “TOTALLY FALSE” [emphasis in the original], yet AntiSec did in fact release 1 million of its reported 12 million stolen IDs earlier, and tools have cropped up that let you check if you’re affected. Long story short, the FBI statement (which doesn’t actually say anything about the real source of the information, only that evidence isn’t there to suggest it was stolen in the manner described) really raises more questions than anything else. We’ll keep you posted as this develops.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #16856065 - 09/16/12 12:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
First of all, it wouldn't be that hard to find the GPS location of a phone without the battery





How would they do that?

Quote:

My only concern is if tin foil is enough--can cell tower, gps, and other signals penetrate tin foil? Maybe a lead case would be better.

--Chicken





Faraday cages work.






I would think it would work exactly like rfid chips. When the initial signal is sent out from something, the energy from it is used to power the rfid so it can send it's signal back out to be recieved. If something like that is in a cell phone would be the actual question though..

Like someone else mentioned, airplane mode seems to cease all wireless communications as well.


Edit- I should mention rfid technology can supposedly only work within a pretty short distance.


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Edited by Yheringaan (09/16/12 12:16 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Yheringaan]
    #16863404 - 09/17/12 03:49 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Figure i'd chime in. Old fox news report. I guess they used this back in the day to get some mobsters / gang leaders. I work on cell phones. I wont say that this is impossible to do, I just dont know how they'd go about it. Especially with a smart phone, but flip phones and feature phones I could see it being done.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
    #16863441 - 09/17/12 03:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)




Most LG feature phones have these inside them. I've notice if disconnected or broken then the speaker in the phone doesnt work. But maybe that's just one model i've worked on.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
    #16873607 - 09/19/12 09:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ComputerTekGuy said:
I just dont know how they'd go about it. Especially with a smart phone, but flip phones and feature phones I could see it being done.





They send a malicious software update to your phone.  The new software transmits the audio that the microphone receives all the time, or records the audio, compresses it and uploads the compressed data.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #16873651 - 09/19/12 09:16 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Transmitting all the time would kill the battery in a matter of hours, and recording for later data transmission would probably run afoul of the 4th amendments minimization requirements.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16873701 - 09/19/12 09:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It probably transmits all the time when the feature is activated.  If the phone was close to a tower, this wouldn't take much power since the transmitter is turned down to a couple milliwatts.  If the person is far from a tower, that would kill the battery very quickly and make the phone always hot.

They probably activate the feature manually and only leave it on if you are doing something interesting.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #16873745 - 09/19/12 09:36 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

That doesn't make much sense either.  If it's being used as a bug, the only way to tell if there is something worth listening to is by listening to it...that means having it transmit 24/7.  The drain on the battery would be significant.  It would be noticed by all but the most unaware of people.

Not to mention the fact that to get a warrant for such surveillance would take a great deal of probable cause.  That is probably one of the most intrusive forms of surveillance that the police could use, and it's unlikely that a judge would grant a warrant for more than a few days.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16873762 - 09/19/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Pahaha warrant... You funny enlil. You local joe blow cop isn't using this, maybe they are but this is more shell corps of cia,nsa, dhs.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: unknown1123]
    #16873801 - 09/19/12 09:47 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You're sounding pretty :tinfoil:


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874035 - 09/19/12 10:34 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That doesn't make much sense either.  If it's being used as a bug, the only way to tell if there is something worth listening to is by listening to it...that means having it transmit 24/7.





They probably turn it on for a minute, and if there is nothing worth listening to, turn it off for awhile.  This way it wouldn't need to transmit 24/7.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874163 - 09/19/12 10:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

For smartphones a huge portion of battery loss is the screen.  The phone drains when you are using it because the screen turns on.  Very little of my smartphone's energy goes towards data.


I just pulled up my battery usage stats.  86% of my battery drain comes from the screen.  2% from wifi, 2% from cell standby.

I would guess that it could probably last a whole work day transmitting voice only on a full charge.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16874191 - 09/19/12 11:01 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The screen isn't on when I'm on a phone call, and "talk time" numbers are always significantly lower than "standby" numbers.

Of course, both of us are pretty much guessing.  Someone with intimate knowledge of which hardware would need to be used for a mic-only scenario could give a knowledgable answer.  I would also guess that a lot of it is hardware specific.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874366 - 09/19/12 11:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

No not at all. I could care less, we're no longer in a free society


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874427 - 09/19/12 11:44 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It shouldnt be hard for a couple semi-smart people to figure out.  The mAH rating of your cell battery is known, as is the output voltage.  The wattage of your transmitter can be googled.  After that its simple unit conversion and division. 

I just did it for my phone.  I have a 1900 mAh battery at 3.7 volts.  I googled cell transmitters and find they run in various power states, with the highest at around 3 watts.  So 3.7*1.9/3 = 2.34 hours.  That is assuming the transmitter is at full strength.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16874449 - 09/19/12 11:48 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Of course, you also have to factor in whatever additional hardware is necessary to do the work.  The transmitter is only one part of it.  There has to be some A/D function active.  Whether that can be turned on individually or must be turned on as a part of a larger module, I don't know.  In addition, there is some idle process that uses power....although that would be minimal.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874477 - 09/19/12 11:54 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ADC's take a fraction of a watt.  We need to be comfortable with dropping higher order terms if we are going to be making back of the envelope calculations.  :grin:

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16874520 - 09/19/12 12:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

In any case, we're still talking far less than the usual smartphone daily charge cycle.  It seems it would be far easier and more effective to simply plant a bug.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874713 - 09/19/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Or just not talk about drugs on cell phones and go meet up with a longtime friend every few months or during the holidays.

Gift wrap, anyone?

:cookiemonster:

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Adden]
    #16874767 - 09/19/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

We're not talking about a tap.  That's a whole other thing.  We're talking about the phone being used as a bug...meaning that it would record conversations taking place in the room where the phone is located...

But seriously...Thanks a bunch for the protip.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16874888 - 09/19/12 01:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Ah right, oopsies.

This thread kinda went from lulzfest to seriousness quick that I lost sight of the OP.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #16883944 - 09/20/12 11:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
We're not talking about a tap.  That's a whole other thing.  We're talking about the phone being used as a bug...meaning that it would record conversations taking place in the room where the phone is located...

But seriously...Thanks a bunch for the protip.







Discreet conversations take place away from phones.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy] * 1
    #16908937 - 09/25/12 02:30 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ComputerTekGuy said:



Most LG feature phones have these inside them. I've notice if disconnected or broken then the speaker in the phone doesnt work. But maybe that's just one model i've worked on.





So I grabbed a junk one these are work today, and a LG rumor touch, took them apart and it's not a battery....

Vibrate motor

Knew this sounded kind of funny

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
    #16916885 - 09/26/12 07:57 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:like:

EDIT: Actually don't like--brutally ripping hardware out of one's phone is a great way to brick it.

Since popping the battery can result in data loss (like text messages from numbers not in your address book), turning it off and on is unreliable (given the battery as shown in the vid above) and a pain in the neck, and phones are perfectly capable of transmitting in "airplane mode" should the Man have the need, I prefer the solution that I posted earlier: RF blocking cases:



http://www.idstronghold.com/


or something like this, which is a bit classier, and doesn't scream "I'M A CLOSET CRIMINAL AND I"M TAKING MYSELF OFF THE GRID!!!" when you whip that thing out in front of your boss at work (hello random drug test policy!):



http://www.shoebuy.com/difrwear-rfid-blocking-phone-case/515805/1087415?cm_mmc=dealtime-_-none-_-none-_-none

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/27/12 09:27 AM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16919550 - 09/27/12 09:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Man, if I believed what you do I wouldnt even have the damn cell phone.  If you really think that its being watched to the point where you have a little pocket faraday cage, why even bother with it?

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16919612 - 09/27/12 09:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Man, if I believed what you do I wouldnt even have the damn cell phone.  If you really think that its being watched to the point where you have a little pocket faraday cage, why even bother with it?



Hey bra, privacy is a huge issue nowadays--and you would be a fool to ignore it.

Your activity (and the activity of everyone in this thread and country) in all its flavors is being routinely tracked and logged. Petabytes of data. A few examples:

- CREDIT/DEBIT CARDS: Your purchasing habits; what you buy, and where you buy it
- EMAIL, IM, TEXT MESSAGES, ETC.: There's a reason why gmail, hotmail, yahoo, and aol mail is still free!
- SOCIAL MEDIA: Your networks of friends
- BROWSING HABITS: The Web sites that you visit
- GPS LOCATION: Your physical location and patterns of movement (Most easily achieved by tracking the location of the mobile device in your pocket, but facial recognition and other techniques are available).
- These are all in addition to the publicly available stuff, like criminal records, credit report, phone book address, etc.

With all these data in hand it is a trivial task to create a picture of who you are and what you do. Even from visiting this site (shroomery.org), I get advertisements about my "drug or alcohol problem," and rehab services. :rolleyes:

My data are most definitely being analyzed for marketing, but probably not very interesting to law enforcement--I'm not even close to being a career criminal. My guess is that there are scripts set up to wade through these massive amounts of data, and flag individuals that exhibit "big fish" patterns for closer inspection.

My friend told me a story of how a guy found out that his girlfriend was pregnant. He started receiving advertisements for baby stuff! Unbeknownst to him, he'd knocked up his GF, who was surfing the 'net on his rig when he wasn't around. She was shopping for baby stuff on Amazon, hitting adoption/abortion services pages, reading articles on being pregnant, etc. They identified him as a person about to have a baby, and the targeted marketing reflected this. Funny! Instead of the usual ads for alcohol, fantasy football, and porn, he started getting banner ads for diapers, emails about sales on cribs, etc.. He was like :wtf:?, put 2 and 2 together, and was like, "Hey, Baby, is there something that you're not telling me...?" :shocked:

Smartphones are incredible inventions--second perhaps only to a car. It's not something to be paranoid about; however, if one is cruising out to buy a sack, it's just not a good idea to be in the matrix. Even worse is if your dealer is stopping by... with his phone on. All of his stops--including your address--are stored in a database table somewhere.

It's painfully simple if you think about it. What would the pattern of a dealer be? hmmm.... how about a guy that stops at the same set of addresses every week or two, on Friday or Saturday night, and has text messages like, "Hey Mr. Green! What's up?" or "Hey man, you holdin?" etc..

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/27/12 02:07 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16920801 - 09/27/12 02:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's painfully simple if you think about it. What would the pattern of a dealer be? hmmm.... how about a guy that stops at the same set of addresses every week or two, on Friday or Saturday night, and has text messages like, "Hey Mr. Green! What's up?" or "Hey man, you holdin?" etc..




I do that all the time and have for years.  If I actually believed what you claim there is no way I would own a cell phone.  No way at all.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16920942 - 09/27/12 02:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It's painfully simple if you think about it. What would the pattern of a dealer be? hmmm.... how about a guy that stops at the same set of addresses every week or two, on Friday or Saturday night, and has text messages like, "Hey Mr. Green! What's up?" or "Hey man, you holdin?" etc..




I do that all the time and have for years.  If I actually believed what you claim there is no way I would own a cell phone.  No way at all.



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Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/27/12 02:37 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16920980 - 09/27/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Classy man, real classy...

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: DieCommie]
    #16921341 - 09/27/12 03:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Watch this video. It's called "Big Data." Here it's used for target marketing, and relies only on public information. The same technique can easily be used to target criminal activity, which is significantly more accurate and invasive, because they have access to additional, confidential information that marketing organizations do [should?] not: credit reports, DMV photos for facial recognition, tax returns, etc. This is big business, man!




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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/27/12 03:59 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #16921393 - 09/27/12 03:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Edit - totally didn't get what you meant....rewriting response.

One, root your phone. You will have more control over your phone than you ever had before. Use one of the more supported ones. You won't even get updates pushed to your phone anymore. You can shut off much of the shit they use to track you. Pop out your battery....turn off all your GPS....restart your phone to bootloader mode...pretty sure it's not sending out shit then, I could be wrong, if you really want to leave your battery in.

Better yet, get a prepaid, leave your real cell at home. Avoid the drama.


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Edited by sandi (09/27/12 03:48 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: sandi]
    #17172591 - 11/06/12 01:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Fuck yeah motherfuckers! I got my shielded cellphone cases in the mail from Hong Kong today!!! Will post up pics later!


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17173081 - 11/06/12 02:42 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Cool thread.  I never considered some of the points brought up here.

A lot of the concerns are technically feasible, but so unlikely I'd only expect them to be used by the more elite LEA in very specific circumstances.  I'd love to know what backdoors the govt agencies force manufacturers to provide (if any, but it makes more sense that they would than they wouldn't).

Using a disposable phone negates all of these issues though - a handset not tied to a name is pretty useless to LE.  Unless you fingerprint the device to yourself in some way of course.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Guy1980]
    #17174480 - 11/06/12 06:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

A few shots of the signal-blocking cellphone case. Note that it has two slots: one non-blocked, where it simply functions as a nice protective case, and one with RF blocking.

I approve of this solution. Sleek, classy, portable, light, easy to use, nondescript, cheap, legal, and effective. No need to rip the phone apart, or remove the battery.  It utterly puts to rest any concerns regarding unauthorized communication with the device. This includes extraordinary situations, such as when the device is in airplane mode (which, despite earlier comments, I still think is laughable), a broadcast is issued for a passive response when the device is powered off and battery removed, and when malware is installed.

If I may get on my soap box for a moment, I am so rippin' pissed about these privacy issues that I'm ready to go to law school, study this stuff, and write the law on this myself. I have so much to say. I firmly believe that information obtained through these devices--and other technologies--must be protected under our 4th amendment rights. I am not so naive as to think that any law could stop the information gathering from occurring, but there absolutely needs to be a well-defined process for court admissibility of data obtained from these technologies. We need some form of "technical search warrant" that must be approved by a judge before information obtained from these devices can be used for many legal purposes.

Either that, or apply for a job with the FBI, right? :lol:

Finally, some semblance of privacy! At least I can now walk around without Big Data and Big Google tracking my every move!

Love,
Chicken :chicken:

1. Case with phone inside



2. Case profile with phone inside



3. Phone in normal operation, non-blocking slot. Note 4 bars of signal:



4. Phone in blocking slot. Note no signal. Sorry for blurry pic but it was a tough shot... I had to slide the phone up, press the button to turn the screen on, and take it fast, in bad lighting, with no flash, in micro mode, before it picked up signal! It found a network connection very quickly--like two seconds after I removed it from the case, and the strength indicator would quickly flip from no signal to three bars. It really amazed me how fast it jumped back on the network--even with only a tiny bit of the phone exposed.


Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/07/12 08:30 AM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17183215 - 11/08/12 03:42 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If your phone doesn't start back up after 8 hours from being off with the battery still in(and it has a full charge), it might be bugged.  But, if not, you probably don't have any malicious software installed.

You'd notice decreased battery life if one of these programs was pushed to your phone.

Just take the battery out.  There is no reason to wrap it in anything.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: buckwater]
    #17183634 - 11/08/12 07:50 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You'd notice decreased battery life if one of these programs was pushed to your phone.





That's assuming that the feds are listening to your audio all the time.  But I don't think that would be the case.  They probably turn it on for a minute, and if you aren't doing anything illegal, turn it back off for awhile until you meet up with your buddies.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17183645 - 11/08/12 07:54 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That's pretty much a constitutional requirement.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17191469 - 11/09/12 04:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
And they don't communicate when on if you put them in airplane mode.




Quote:

Yheringaan said:
Like someone else mentioned, airplane mode seems to cease all wireless communications as well.




So I figured out a way to prove that communication is possible, despite a phone being in airplane mode.

*** WARNING: Before you do this, realize that you may get a knock at your door! The police are required to follow up on all 911 calls, especially hang-ups *** If you try this test, make sure to tell the 911 operator that you were just testing your phone, and don't rush off the line. ***

Basically the idea is to make an emergency call while the phone is in airplane mode. By law all phones are required to enable emergency calls in all circumstances. That's why you have a special "Emergency Call" button on your phone, even when the screen is locked.

If airplane mode REALLY locked down all communication ability, you wouldn't be able to get through, even with an emergency call; however you CAN get through. An emergency call will take a phone out of airplane mode.

My point? Airplane mode DOES NOT completely shut down communication. It can be overridden in certain circumstances.

1. If you haven't done so already, set a password on your phone
2. Put it into airplane mode
3. Turn the screen off and then on, so that it locks
4. Hit the "Emergency Call" button
5. Dial 911

The phone will exit airplane mode, gain signal, and the call will go through.


--------------------

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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17191497 - 11/09/12 04:07 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

right...but then it isn't in airplane mode anymore...

As we've all said, one could make software to turn on the transmitter...but the phones don't do it automatically to track you.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17191959 - 11/09/12 05:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
right...but then it isn't in airplane mode anymore...

As we've all said, one could make software to turn on the transmitter...but the phones don't do it automatically to track you.



There's no practical difference between the phone communicating while in actually in airplane mode, and it communicating after being popped out of airplane mode on command. Either way, airplane mode is insecure, and can't be trusted.


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17192123 - 11/09/12 06:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Again, there's no practical reason for the manufacturers to build such functionality into the phones...some malware could do it, but it would be pretty easy to notice the battery drain.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17192203 - 11/09/12 06:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again, there's no practical reason for the manufacturers to build such functionality into the phones....



The functionality is already there!!! I just demonstrated that when the phone popped out of airplane mode for an emergency call!

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again, there's no practical reason for the manufacturers to build such functionality into the phones...



FCC E911 telecom requirements require it:
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-911-services

You burnin' tonight? :jah:


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17192226 - 11/09/12 06:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You don't read very well...everyone knows about 911 functionality...that's not the topic of the thread...the thread is about the government being able to track and/or listen in on you remotely...that's the functionality that I'm talking about.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17192277 - 11/09/12 06:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't read very well...everyone knows about 911 functionality...that's not the topic of the thread...the thread is about the government being able to track and/or listen in on you remotely...that's the functionality that I'm talking about.




Perhaps we are arguing different points. Mine is that it is technically possible to communicate with a wireless device in airplane mode. Are you arguing that the government _cannot_ "track and/or" listen in on you remotely."

Would you mind re-stating your position?


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17192342 - 11/09/12 07:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The thread is originally about trying to shield a phone because it supposedly can communicate while off and/or with the battery out.  My point is that it can't be done without a battery, and probably not while off.  I also think that it could be done with the phone on if malware was installed, but it would be obvious because of the reduced battery life


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17192622 - 11/09/12 08:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The thread is originally about trying to shield a phone because it supposedly can communicate while off and/or with the battery out. My point is that it can't be done without a battery, and probably not while off.




I respectfully disagree; removing the battery and/or turning the phone off is not enough, as discussed in the following points:

1. BATTERY OUT. The following post, quoted from page 2, shows that phones have an internal battery; they _always_ have enough juice to pulse a simple "I am here" message back to a tower.

Quote:

ComputerTekGuy said:






2. PHONE OFF These very basic "I am here" system-level messages do not require the operating system to be running. Think of beep codes from a motherboard.

3. BATTERY OUT AND PHONE OFF. The little internal battery would power the system-level "I am here"

4. BATTERY OUT, INTERNAL BATTERY RIPPED OUT, PHONE OFF. Worst-case scenario, and very few users will be in this category, but I think that that it is still possible to locate a device in this state, with the following technique: Emit a high-powered broadcast from a tower. The oscillator within the phone will emit a little radiation when hit with this burst, enough to locate the phone. Similar to the radiation measured by a "radar detector detector."

Quote:

Enlil said:
I also think that it could be done with the phone on if malware was installed, but it would be obvious because of the reduced battery life



Only if your malware writer was a little slow.  The smart ones are conscious of battery usage.


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/09/12 08:03 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17192692 - 11/09/12 08:18 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

1. Even if you're right about sending an id to a cell tower, that isn't enough to eavesdrop or track the phone to a specific location.  At most, it could place the phone to within a few blocks.

2. I know you believe that there is a hidden battery that can power the transmitter.  I don't.  From my electronics experience, which doesn't make me an expert, i am guessing that any such battery is there for memory retention purposes much like the battery in your desktop computer.

3. The idea of some high power signal triggering some radiation from the phone which can be tracked its pure science fiction

4. Transmitters require power to transmit and gps receivers require power to locate...it doesn't matter how quick or slow the programmer is


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17192971 - 11/09/12 09:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
1. Even if you're right about sending an id to a cell tower, that isn't enough to eavesdrop or track the phone to a specific location.  At most, it could place the phone to within a few blocks.



Nah. You can see a match light from a mile away. If you're a warmonger you'll recognize the phrase, "Three on a match." :wink:

Quote:

Enlil said:
2. I know you believe that there is a hidden battery that can power the transmitter.  I don't.



This would have to be taken on a device-by-device basis, but I might try and hunt down the circuit diagrams for the iPhone and a couple other popular devices. But not tonight... beer is calling.

On another note, an iPhone battery is not so easy to remove... you have to unscrew it. See this vid:


Quote:

Enlil said:
3. From my electronics experience, which doesn't make me an expert, i am guessing that any such battery is there for memory retention purposes much like the battery in your desktop computer.



Perhaps. I'll have to noodle on the proof of this, but it is theoretically possible.

Quote:

Enlil said:
3. The idea of some high power signal triggering some radiation from the phone which can be tracked its pure science fiction



Disagree. I even wonder if a radar gun could be tuned to generate enough power to light up a cellphone if it was close enough; say, from a car in the street, 100 feet away.

Quote:

Enlil said:
4. Transmitters require power to transmit and gps receivers require power to locate...it doesn't matter how quick or slow the programmer is



Wrong on this one. Lots of tricks you can do here, such as minimizing the frequency of "here I am" messages, and only sending an absolute minimum of information. A tiny little blip here and there is enough, and will burn only a tiny bit of battery power.

There is still reasonable doubt here, enough that it's worth a $9.99 investment into a signal blocking case, just to be on the safe side. The whole point of this thread is to remove a device from the grid with 100% certainty, and the RF blocking case accomplishes that, beyond a reasonable doubt--for the cost of a couple of beers.


--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/09/12 09:20 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17194111 - 11/10/12 04:34 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

We're not going to come to a consensus here.  At least not until some credible experts have examined the issue and made their best guess about it.

Having said that, I do find it to be very odd that you cling to these theories of what MIGHT be theoretically be possible with a phone by claiming that you would like to be 100% certain that it is off the grid...yet you endorse a $10 product claiming to give you this 100% certainty without ever questioning the validity of that claim.  Where are the laboratory tests showing that this product completely shields all rf?

In the end, however, whatever the practicality or possibility of tracking/listening are...it would require a warrant in the United States.  In addition, it would not be legal for them to listen and record 24/7.  That wouldn't be legal with a planted bug, either.  This is, of course, something about which I am an expert.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17194482 - 11/10/12 08:07 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

i am positive that removing the battery is the only thing that works there is noo small battery or capacitor in ur phone ur bugged out... lol

i slept over my friends house n my mom bugged out n called the cops n shit cuz she thought i ran away n they couldnt find me cuz i took my battery out.

this only wouldnt work for the iphone n u just let it die dead dead. n keep trying to turn it on to kill remaining batt


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17194748 - 11/10/12 09:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
I respectfully disagree; removing the battery and/or turning the phone off is not enough, as discussed in the following points:

1. BATTERY OUT. The following post, quoted from page 2, shows that phones have an internal battery; they _always_ have enough juice to pulse a simple "I am here" message back to a tower.




Not true - phones can not communicate at all without the battery.

Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT, INTERNAL BATTERY RIPPED OUT, PHONE OFF. Worst-case scenario, and very few users will be in this category, but I think that that it is still possible to locate a device in this state, with the following technique: Emit a high-powered broadcast from a tower. The oscillator within the phone will emit a little radiation when hit with this burst, enough to locate the phone. Similar to the radiation measured by a "radar detector detector."




That would only work if you were within a few yards of the tower.


Quote:

Enlil said:
In the end, however, whatever the practicality or possibility of tracking/listening are...it would require a warrant in the United States.





The police don't need to get a warrant to track someones cell phone location due to United States v. Skinner.  People don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in this case.  Cell phone companies have special law enforcement websites where cops type in someone cell phone #, and it tracks them.  The websites have no oversight, and even local cops do this at the drop of a hat - it's one of their favorite tricks.

http://rt.com/usa/news/police-track-cell-court-979

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17194891 - 11/10/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

First, Skinner is only binding in the sixth circuit.

Second, Skinner deals with a phone that is already sending gps data.  This can be stopped by turning off the gps function of your phone.  The court heavily relied on the fact that the skinner voluntarily had his phone set to transmit his location.  This is why he had no expectation of privacy.

This is a VERY different situation from one where the cops, by any means, turn on and use the gps functioning of someone's phone without their consent or knowledge.  And, of course, the case doesn't address eavesdropping.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17196230 - 11/10/12 03:44 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Having said that, I do find it to be very odd that you cling to these theories of what MIGHT be theoretically be possible with a phone




In an earlier post, you stated:

Quote:

Enlil said:
And they don't communicate when on if you put them in airplane mode.



The E911 test proves this claim false; a device can be made to communicate even when a phone is "secured" in airplane mode.

My point? There was something that you didn't know; a technology of which you were unaware came to light. I "cling to these theories," for the the other proposed "secure" solutions (battery out, phone off, etc.), because I see technical work-arounds.

Quote:

Enlil said:
by claiming that you would like to be 100% certain that it is off the grid...yet you endorse a $10 product claiming to give you this 100% certainty without ever questioning the validity of that claim.  Where are the laboratory tests showing that this product completely shields all rf?



Meh.. weak. I suppose we could do a "consumer reports" study on the effectiveness of each brand of shielding cases, but a shielding case is designed to, well, shield communications signals.

Quote:

Enlil said:
In the end, however, whatever the practicality or possibility of tracking/listening are...it would require a warrant in the United States.  In addition, it would not be legal for them to listen and record 24/7. That wouldn't be legal with a planted bug, either.  This is, of course, something about which I am an expert.



On all this I agree, and acknowledge that this is your turf. Forthwith, aren't the people who track this stuff above the law, and/or do they have easy access to rubber-stamp warrants? How would one go about proving that these laws had been violated?

REALLY interesting to me is the body of law that's been developed to protect the citizen in these matters. This is what I want to go to law school for. Would mind citing the law in this? Is it Federal/FCC, State, or other?

Regardless, this has been a very fruitful discussion. Would you agree to the following rank for device security, from weakest to strongest?

1. NORMAL OPERATION: Most Insecure. Geolocator installed in phone enables location tracking, malware can enables remote microphone activation,  location is displayed on Google Maps, etc.
2. AIRPLANE MODE: Insecure. E911 call proves this. Phone can be "popped out" of airplane mode if necessary.
3. PHONE OFF: Jury's out
4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out
5. PHONE OUT, BATTERY OUT: Jury's out
6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure


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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 04:24 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196254 - 11/10/12 03:51 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1. NORMAL OPERATION: Most Insecure. Geolocator installed in phone enables location tracking, malware can enables remote microphone activation,  location is displayed on Google Maps, etc.




Also it doesn't matter if the GPS is off, the time difference between when your signal hits the 3 cell phone antennas triangulates you.

Quote:

2. AIRPLANE MODE: Insecure. E911 call proves this. Phone can be "popped out" of airplane mode if necessary.




Airplane mode is probably secure, however a malicious software update could change that.  Unlikely they would do that though - most people take the battery out rather than use airplane mode.

Quote:

3. PHONE OFF: Jury's out





The phone doesn't transmit when it's off, but a malicious software update could change that.

Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out





The jury isn't out on this one - The phone definitely won't transmit with the battery out.  It wouldn't be cost / space effective to add a separate battery just so it can transmit with no battery.  It would be easy to take a phone apart and verify this, but trust me, they use every millimeter they can in those phones, there won't be any unnecessary components.  I have taken apart hundreds of cell phones.

Quote:

6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure




Your phone would likely work fine in the blocking case if you were very close to a tower.

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17196290 - 11/10/12 04:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

4. BATTERY OUT: Jury's out





The jury isn't out on this one - The phone definitely won't transmit with the battery out.  It wouldn't be cost / space effective to add a separate battery just so it can transmit with no battery.  It would be easy to take a phone apart and verify this, but trust me, they use every millimeter they can in those phones, there won't be any unnecessary components.  I have taken apart hundreds of cell phones.




Everyone keeps saying this, but no one is providing an intelligent counter-argument to the technical innovation that I proposed, which I restate here:

Transmit a strong burst of energy at a frequency that will cause the oscillator in the device to reflect a small amount of energy, and listen for this emission. This could be done from either a tower or a car with a radar-gun like device. Similar to a "radar detector-detector," except that the small amount of measurable energy is a reflection of the burst (as opposed to energy from a car's cigarette lighter that powers a radar detector).

To make an analogy, think of shining a floodlight on the ground looking for the reflection of a coin that you've dropped. The floodlight is the burst; your eye, the radar detector-detector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_detector_detector

Honestly this seems pretty simple and easy to me, and I bet that a standard radar detector detector could be modified to accomplish this.

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

6. RF BLOCKING CASE: Most secure




Your phone would likely work fine in the blocking case if you were very close to a tower.

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.




:hmm: What gaps are you talking about?

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 04:10 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196426 - 11/10/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"Forthwith" means "immediately."

As far as people "above the law", I've known several people who believe this kind of thing, but I don't engage in that kind of speculation.  I have never seen anything to indicate that there is anything resembling a shadowy group of people who are above the law.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17196565 - 11/10/12 05:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
"Forthwith" means "immediately."

As far as people "above the law", I've known several people who believe this kind of thing, but I don't engage in that kind of speculation.  I have never seen anything to indicate that there is anything resembling a shadowy group of people who are above the law.



Do you have any citations to law(s) defining and/or protecting the electronic privacy rights of the citizen, at the Federal or State level?

Probably a stupid question; I can't see the powers at be rushing to provide the individual with electronic privacy rights. I'm sure it will take some landmark court cases in the next 10-20 years to establish a precedent for these laws.

I wonder if there's any money in this. :money:

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (11/10/12 05:12 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17196750 - 11/10/12 05:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Transmit a strong burst of energy at a frequency that will cause the oscillator in the device to reflect a small amount of energy, and listen for this emission. This could be done from either a tower or a car with a radar-gun like device. Similar to a "radar detector-detector," except that the small amount of measurable energy is a reflection of the burst (as opposed to energy from a car's cigarette lighter that powers a radar detector).





Technically impossible for several reasons.  And even if the oscillator does transmit radio waves when energized with other radio waves, which is unlikely, that would only tell them that there was a phone, not which phone it was.

Quote:

Honestly this seems pretty simple and easy to me, and I bet that a standard radar detector detector could be modified to accomplish this.




No.  And if it was possible, which it isn't, a radar detector would be the wrong device for the task.  The correct device is high power transmitter, a sensitive receiver, an expensive duplexer and big directional antennas.  And the range would be very short - less than 20 meters.


Quote:

Quote:

Wrapping your phone in tinfoil would be more secure than a RF blocking case, as the gaps are smaller.




:hmm: What gaps are you talking about?




The flap where you open the case.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17198642 - 11/11/12 12:25 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Wrapping a Smartphone in lead to Remove it From the Grid*

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: s240779]
    #17200200 - 11/11/12 09:29 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

There is no reason to use lead instead of tinfoil.  Phones don't communicate with radioactive particles.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #17322405 - 12/02/12 06:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

And you fuckers all gave me the tinfoil hat for this thread... :tinfoil:

@6:56, "...what probable cause did they have to [begin surveillance on this person]"

This shit is completely above the law. Probable cause is laughable at that level.

Privacy will be the next "big thing."

Oh, and by the way, don't trust this motherfucker either. I bet that he's bought and paid, and his whole position is a puppet show. What he DIDN'T bring up, what I believe, and what is most disconcerting, is that your location and patterns of movement are also being logged.



--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/02/12 06:47 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17322543 - 12/02/12 06:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Lol..he makes a lot of claims, but not a lot of it makes any sense.  We certainly haven't seen any of this ubiquitous surveillance used against people in court


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17322824 - 12/02/12 07:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol..he makes a lot of claims, but not a lot of it makes any sense.  We certainly haven't seen any of this ubiquitous surveillance used against people in court



How does it not make sense? They're logging personal information that is, I assert, protected under our 4th amendment rights.

As far as being used in court, if, through the use of this information, it is determined that someone is a terrorist under the Patriot act, they can be detained without any court intervention.

There's several different topics here:

1. What is the entirety of the data being logged? Emails? Text messages? Voice conversations? Patterns of movement logged by GPS signals? Purchases? Facial recognition data? All of the above? Where does it end?
2. What limits, if any, are there on the government to collect this information about individuals?
3. What is ( and isn't) protected under our 4th amendment rights?
4. Is there any kind of "electronic search warrant" that is required to access this information?
5. In this sea of data, what is admissible in court?

All these issues will take at least a decade to sort out, and I betcha this goes to the supreme court, but of two things I am certain:

1. There's a mint of money to be made here
2. Because of this idiotic drug war, this information puts a lot of decent people at a great deal of risk.

I guess it really depends on how they use this information. If it enables the FBI, CIA, et. al. to prevent terrorist attacks on me and my home, then I'm all for it. On the other hand, if it's used as a basis for a no-knock warrant, then I'd be against it.

What a legal quagmire.

Supreme court rulings aside, the groups involved (FBI, CIA, NSA) are pretty much going to do whatever the hell they want to.



Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/02/12 09:19 PM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17323497 - 12/02/12 09:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

The question is, what ARE you going to do about it? I assume that answer is nothing. Your little tin foil bullshit is not going to protect you from anything. You think a little fuck named chicken.soup is going to circumvent the NSA if they are actively profiling you? Hell no. Quit wasting your breath on trying to convince other people what you believe and just do you, man.

:stoned:


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325094 - 12/03/12 05:53 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Most of your questions have long been answered by the courts...

The real question is, if they have all of this information, when do they plan to use it?  I've never seen a criminal case where such information was used...so...when are they going to start?  You think they're waiting a decade or two so that they can prosecute people after the statute of limitations has run?

There are really only two possibilities:

1.  The information is being collected and stored, but not used, and
2.  The information isn't being collected or stored.

I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17325644 - 12/03/12 09:20 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Most of your questions have long been answered by the courts...

The real question is, if they have all of this information, when do they plan to use it?  I've never seen a criminal case where such information was used...so...when are they going to start?  You think they're waiting a decade or two so that they can prosecute people after the statute of limitations has run?

There are really only two possibilities:

1.  The information is being collected and stored, but not used, and
2.  The information isn't being collected or stored.

I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.




So then, it's OK for the police to search our homes, take pictures, and log everything into database; all without a warrant and/or probable cause.

Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, there's no practical difference; this information might as well not exist, right?


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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325650 - 12/03/12 09:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
So then, it's OK for the police to search our homes, take pictures, and log everything into database; all without a warrant and/or probable cause.



Are you asking or telling?

If you're asking, it's not okay, but I see no indication that it's happening, either.
Quote:


Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, there's no practical difference; this information might as well not exist, right?



I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist except in the minds of a few :tinfoil: types.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325720 - 12/03/12 09:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You been watching Minority Report?


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17325962 - 12/03/12 10:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

QFT (Quoted for Truth :smile:)
Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't see much of a practical difference it makes to you and me.  Unless/until prosecutions start happening with this information, it might as well not exist.



Correct me if I am wrong, but with this statement, you approve government collection and logging of electronic information--without warrant and/or probable cause--in the absence of prosecutions.

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment States:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]




My assertion and counterpoint is that the collection of this information is a violation of 4th amendment rights, irrespective of its use.


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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17325976 - 12/03/12 10:48 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with this statement, you approve government collection and logging of electronic information--without warrant and/or probable cause--in the absence of prosecutions.



You're wrong.
Quote:


Quote:

The Fourth Amendment States:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]




My assertion and counterpoint is that the collection of this information is a violation of 4th amendment rights, irrespective of its use.



I agree.  I never said otherwise.

I just don't think anyone is collecting the data.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: unknown1123]
    #17326125 - 12/03/12 11:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment States:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]




My assertion and counterpoint is that the collection of this information is a violation of 4th amendment rights, irrespective of its use.



I agree.  I never said otherwise.

I just don't think anyone is collecting the data.



The vid of the NSA whistleblower (posted above) refutes this point.

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
The question is, what ARE you going to do about it? I assume that answer is nothing. Your little tin foil bullshit is not going to protect you from anything. You think a little fuck named chicken.soup is going to circumvent the NSA if they are actively profiling you? Hell no. Quit wasting your breath on trying to convince other people what you believe and just do you, man.

:stoned:



You'll get no argument from me in that I don't stand a chance against the NSA; but then again, I have nothing really to hide.

I have no interest in convincing anyone to think anything; my interest in this is in making a lot of money.
:money:  :money:  :money:

The reason that I keep arguing these points is that I see this data collection as a very real violation of the U.S. Citizens' Constitutional rights; particularly, 4th amendment rights. I've seen this this issue really coming for years, and the Petraeus scandal seems to have triggered some discussion.

What I do NOT see is how I can profit from this. Where is the money in defending the rights of the U.S. Citizen against data collection by the NSA et. al? Usually there's very little cash on the side of the individual... it tends to degrade into some type of "Not-for-profit" group. :projectile:

And, as an aside, I do very much appreciate the insightful arguments from Enlil et al.


--------------------

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"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/03/12 11:23 AM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17326129 - 12/03/12 11:22 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

That vid is hardly a smoking gun.  It's just some talking head making claims out of his ass.  I doubt much of it is true.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17326150 - 12/03/12 11:25 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That vid is hardly a smoking gun.  It's just some talking head making claims out of his ass.  I doubt much of it is true.



Perhaps, but, even setting aside the government :tinfoil:, there is a lot of data collection going on even from a marketing perspective. Think "Big Data." Are there any legal rights of the consumer to, say, see what Google has in their database about our searches and Web sites visited? Do we have a legal right to view their files on us?

Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (12/03/12 11:26 AM)

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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17326156 - 12/03/12 11:26 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

well lets start a non profit and start making a profit :awegroove:


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17326158 - 12/03/12 11:27 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Marketing data is not nearly as intrusive as logging emails, but it is annoying as fuck...and there is no 4th amendment protection from it since it is being done by a private company.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17326179 - 12/03/12 11:30 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Marketing data is not nearly as intrusive as logging emails, but it is annoying as fuck...and there is no 4th amendment protection from it since it is being done by a private company.



Well, in sum, do you see any money in protecting the electronic privacy of individuals, either from Big Brother Google and/or Uncle Sam?


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17326185 - 12/03/12 11:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Of course there is.  I'm sure that there are companies that make money producing and distributing software for the purpose of reducing the amount of information gathered about your browsing.


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Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: Enlil]
    #17326335 - 12/03/12 12:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.

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Offlinenumonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 15 days
Re: Wrapping a Smartphone in Tin Foil to Remove it From the Grid [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up]
    #17366005 - 12/10/12 07:44 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ch1ck3n.s0up said:
Don't wrap it while parked in front of your lover's door before you go in--that's just plain stupid.




Words to live by.

~Monk

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