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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1674121 - 06/30/03 04:00 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'll tell you why it is on topic then, shall I? Two clear historical examples of presidents misleading their public to lead them into war. Therefore, entirely conceivable that Bush did the same.




Noone's debating if it's conceivable. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You're not familiar with evidence are you? With your logic i can link you with any crime imaginable because you hold the same traits as that person doing the crime. You wouldn't last 2 seconds in a court room.

Quote:

Thus your protestations of "how could you think such a thing" or "that's such a radical thought.....mommmmmy"




noone said those things, now you're just being a knob. see above

Quote:

betray nothing but historical ignorance on your part.




Historical ignorance is that you assume that everything you hear is fact. It's pretty comical that even if your accusation of a past president is correct (which can be debated until the cows come home) you assume it is correct for all those after him. Come back to reality lil feller.

Quote:

There is exceptionally good evidence that there was either a breakdown in the chain of command, or a good measure of corruption.




If it was exceptionally good evidence you'd know if it was a breakdown in the chain of command (which would mean that Bush is innocent) or a good measure of corruption. You are soooo lucky you're not a lawyer, you'd get torn apart.

You have no idea what bush was told and you know it. This basically means you don't know shit, pure and simple


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1674258 - 06/30/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Did I say it was conceivable *therefore* it happened? No, so stop projecting . My point is/was with the historical examples that you guys attempted a diversion of topic by the use of tin foil hat etc jokes; thus my rejoinder was intended to show that we're talking about things well within the realms of possibility as evidenced by past reality -- and thus get with the discussion instead of criticizing the discussion itself.

I'm not arguing the case for Bush knowing in the last few posts - I'm arguing the case for you to stop using meta-diversionary tactics and stick to the point at hand. As I've said previously, offer me evidence instead of reactionary rhetoric, and I'll be more than pleased to listen.

Let's break this down into simple statements that you can either attack with evidence or concede:

1) What was supposed to take place in an emergency situation did not happen for an inexplicably long period of time. This inexplicably long period of time allowed the second plane to hit, the pentagon to be hit, and the pennsylvania plane to continue to wherever it was going before it , um, crashed. NORADs response was delayed beyond reason. Why?

Again, for the 15th time, please read the cooperativeresearch timeline before responding, as posted several times on this thread.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1674401 - 06/30/03 05:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Did I say it was conceivable *therefore* it happened? No, so stop projecting




you're making some awfully strong claims for someone who has no idea what proof is. You're back-tracking which is of no surprise.

Quote:

My point is/was with the historical examples that you guys attempted a diversion of topic by the use of tin foil hat etc jokes; thus my rejoinder was intended to show that we're talking about things well within the realms of possibility as evidenced by past reality -- and thus get with the discussion instead of criticizing the discussion itself.




I'm sorry if you think i was criticizing the discussion because in fact I was criticising your ilk and NOT the discussion. The discussion is actually pretty interesing (though lacking in absolutly anything that could be construde as proof.). Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

I'm not arguing the case for Bush knowing in the last few posts -




How about the ones before that?

Quote:

I'm arguing the case for you to stop using meta-diversionary tactics and stick to the point at hand




There you go again. The only person trying to divert is yourself. There isn't a comment that i made that incorporates any sort of diversionary tactic. I've said it from the beginning that you have absolutly no proof as to what was told to Bush at the time of the attck. You seem to think that you have first-hand knowledge of what when on. Ofcourse you don't. It is up to you (the accuser) to find evidence to the contrary, and to this date you have not. I would even accept it if you said "Hey I hate Bush, therefore he did it". Atleast you'd be honest.

Quote:

As I've said previously, offer me evidence instead of reactionary rhetoric, and I'll be more than pleased to listen.





Evidence of what? That Bush is innocent?

Quote:

Let's break this down into simple statements that you can either attack with evidence or concede:




son, you have neither the brain power nor the knowledge to make me concede.

Quote:

1) What was supposed to take place in an emergency situation did not happen for an inexplicably long period of time.




How do you know this? What was Bush told? Did you just want him to freak out like some spaz in front of a classroom full of children? My God have you ever been in charge of anything?


BTW I read the Timeline and think you're still full of shit. The burden of proof is on you. Thsi was the first time we were ever attacked in this fashion abd using hind sight logic to explain wrong doing is quite laughable.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1674425 - 06/30/03 06:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Your argument is essentially "aw, the poor president was confused and didn't know what to do?" In other words, you place your marker on the "incompetence" answer.

Well, the incompetence in this case caused the deaths of 1500+ people. Don't you think that is more powerful grounds for impeachment than a blow job?

I agree with you that we can't know what Bush was told. However on his own account Card told him of the attacks. Also, he initially claimed that he saw the attacks on a TV outside of the classroom. And, in any case, whatever. What is the NSC for, and the position of the vice president for, if not to take action when the president is busy with matters of state? (Although reading about goats at a press conference doesn't seem particularly pressing matters of state.)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1674468 - 06/30/03 06:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Your argument is essentially "aw, the poor president was confused and didn't know what to do?"




I guess i'm not making this abundantly clear to you so i'll be blunt:

My argument is/was that you have no idea what the fuck was told to Bush and your whole premise is based on sub-circumstantial evidence.

Quote:

In other words, you place your marker on the "incompetence" answer.




I asked for proof, you had none. It's really quite simple if you THINK about it.

Quote:

Well, the incompetence in this case caused the deaths of 1500+ people. Don't you think that is more powerful grounds for impeachment than a blow job?




This is the exact diversionary "rhetoric" i was discussing before, you are the epitomy of it. Either way you have no clue.

As for Klinton i couldn't care less if you blew him in office or Monica for that matter. Evidence is just that evidence and you have none. We did however have evidence that Klinton lied under oath (since you asked about Klinton)

Quote:

I agree with you that we can't know what Bush was told.




Great, then your whole argument is BS. Yopu based all your accusation on his reaction and now you're backing down. Why?

Quote:

However on his own account Card told him of the attacks. Also, he initially claimed that he saw the attacks on a TV outside of the classroom.




So what? I watched it on the TV at my work. Just about every TV in the land had it on. I'm sure the school had it on too.

Quote:

What is the NSC for, and the position of the vice president for, if not to take action when the president is busy with matters of state? (Although reading about goats at a press conference doesn't seem particularly pressing matters of state.)




It will never be argued that something should of been done but hind-sight is always 20/20. If the screeners at the airport would of done their job we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we? Where is your outrage for them. Can it NOT be argued that if anyone is at fault it is the security at the airport? I'm not blaming anyone in particular because i don't know all the ins and outs of what went on (just as you don't) but to say that this was done with the prior knowledge, to me atleast, is utter BS with no proof whatsoever.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleshroomQT
psilly gurl

Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 249
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1674530 - 06/30/03 06:47 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

why isn't anyone being fired or
reprimanded as a result of the
single largest failure in national
(air) security since the begining
of time?

the investigations into the 'whys'
of september 11th were blocked by
the president.

any way you cut it, the whole deal
stinks to me.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1674585 - 06/30/03 07:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Is a lobotomy necessary to understand your reasoning?

Quote:


My argument is/was that you have no idea what the fuck was told to Bush and your whole premise is based on sub-circumstantial evidence.





a) Bush told us what Card said, i.e. that Card notified him of the initial attacks.
b) Bush told us that he knew before he went into the classroom. (Which seems like a lie based on circumstantial evidence - see the timeline.)
c) Bush read about a goat for 15 minutes following Card's whisper.
d) NORAD, which hadn't responded, still didn't respond for an painfully long period of time which allowed the remaining three planes to complete their trajectories.

Yes, this is not hard damning evidence that Bush allowed this to happen. But, this *is* hard damning evidence of something stinking - either the administration and chain of command are incompetent, or they were complacent beyond reasonable belief. Either demands further investigation, and explanation.

Quote:


Great, then your whole argument is BS. Yopu based all your accusation on his reaction and now you're backing down. Why?





I base none of my accusations solely on his response. I base them on the inaction of him *and* his administration. What Card whispered to Bush (perhaps it was about how nice the weather was outside? What do you think?) is pretty much irrelevant, because it is clear that Bush and his aides had time to prevent the remaining three planes from impacting, but didn't.

Let me ask you this as a supplementary question, which might make our relative positions clearer in this argument: do you support the stated goals and objections of PNAC?


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1674611 - 06/30/03 07:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You're wasting your time trying to convince Inny...Anyone that questions the almighty Bush is just a "conspiracy nut" or "Bush hater".


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (06/30/03 07:11 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Rono]
    #1674660 - 06/30/03 07:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

hm..
a mighty bush doesn't sound THAT bad, does it?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: ]
    #1674666 - 06/30/03 07:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No Bush sounds even better...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Rono]
    #1674688 - 06/30/03 07:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

actually, ive never had a shaved one
hmm
ill look into that


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Offlineerjone
el cap-e-tan!

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 113
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
    #1674910 - 06/30/03 09:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Click here.

Quote:

Not only did the leader of the free world sit as his country was attacked, the Secret Service also
did nothing. Bush was appearing in public at a previously announced photo-op. He was a sitting
duck. The attacks were ongoing at that point (planes had yet to hit the Pentagon or the field in
Pennsylvania), and nobody knew how much more destruction was going to happen. Were there
two, three, four, eight more planes hijacked and on their way to crash into prominent buildings?
Was one headed for the school, where anyone who checked the President's public itinerary would
know he was located? Were other terrorists planning to detonate dirty nukes? Were they going to
release anthrax or smallpox or sarin? Was an assassination squad going to burst into the school and
get Bush? Was a suicide bomber going to ram a truck full of explosives into that classroom?

During the midst of the attacks, any of these things could've happened. Yet there sits Bush,
seemingly unconcerned. His Chief of Staff likewise doesn't think that America in flames warrants
the President's immediate attention. And the Secret Service utterly fails to do its job by grabbing the
President of the United States and getting him to safety. It's truly inexplicable.







Isn't it obvious to you that Bush did nothing because he knew exactly what was going to happen that day?

I'd like to hear the pro-Bush people defend these non-actions.





before that day, it was inconcievable of a attack like that happening on our soil. I am not a bush supporter as i think he is a horrible president, but im sure when news of the crashes got to him, he and all around him thought that the attacks on the towers were all that could happen.


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: erjone]
    #1675081 - 06/30/03 10:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Here's some evidence of prior knowledge.

Washington Post
Quote:

"Federal authorities have been aware for years that suspected terrorists with ties to Osama bin Laden were receiving flight training at schools in the United States and abroad, according to interviews and court testimony."







and CLICK HERE for the Prior Knowledge Archive




--------------------
--------------------------------


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
    #1675624 - 07/01/03 01:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Learyfan, just so you know, you are definately not alone in claiming Bush knew. Your job here is well done, even if people outright reject this idea, you have planted the seed and just maybe some day it will spurt with some clear headed, propaganda free thinking.


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Anonymous

Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1676012 - 07/01/03 04:40 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't bother to read past this:

Quote:

I have to admit something here. When Bush was elected I was pissed. I was buying all the 'he stole the election' bullshit, and after a week or so I didn't care anymore. Then 9/11 happened. I felt like my world had been shattered. The effect that event had on me changed my life. I sat by the TV for a couple weeks, watching what was happening in the world. The President gave that speach to the nation in Congress a day or two after it happened. It helped me. It gave me hope, and it showed me that we had a very strong, dedicated President that was determined to try to stop this from happening again. So far he has been successful.




That is one of the saddest things I have ever read....

The brainwashing machine is in full effect....


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 4 months, 27 days
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
    #1676094 - 07/01/03 05:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Assuming Bush is not in on it, here is my attempt at a rational explanation of why Bush didnt do anything for 5 minutes:

-He didnt know what to do. For five minutes.



--------------------
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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1676197 - 07/01/03 06:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yes, this is not hard damning evidence that Bush allowed this to happen. But, this *is* hard damning evidence of something stinking




it's like a broken record, you have no idea what he said to bush. You apparantly don't know what "evidence" is. Something's only stinking if you see it that way. I don't believe for one sec that he new that the attacks were going to happen, it just doesn't make sense logically. You're basing everything you find on hind sight logic ie: "since americans are up in arms at the radical muslims (due to 9-11) it is apparant that bush planned it that way".

Quote:

I base none of my accusations solely on his response. I base them on the inaction of him *and* his administration.




another accusation from the instant fratification generation. The United States gets threatened just about everyday from terrorists and to say that this was any different is laughable. We can all agree that if all the security (including the screeners (which none of you have breought up) did their job this would of never happened or greatly reduced.

Quote:

What Card whispered to Bush (perhaps it was about how nice the weather was outside? What do you think?)




I would have to say that i don't know, just as you don't.

Quote:

is pretty much irrelevant, because it is clear that Bush and his aides had time to prevent the remaining three planes from impacting, but didn't.




i don't even think they could of stopped them if they had double the time. This isn't a video game.

Quote:

Let me ask you this as a supplementary question, which might make our relative positions clearer in this argument: do you support the stated goals and objections of PNAC?




This is exactly what i'm talking about. This is the Third time during our portion of this debate that you tried to misdirect the conversation. It's pathetic.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
    #1676205 - 07/01/03 07:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"Federal authorities have been aware for years that suspected terrorists with ties to Osama bin Laden were receiving flight training at schools in the United States and abroad, according to interviews and court testimony."




you people should learn what evidence is. The US gets these sort of threats everyday....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: ]
    #1676634 - 07/01/03 12:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:
I didn't bother to read past this:

Quote:

I have to admit something here. When Bush was elected I was pissed. I was buying all the 'he stole the election' bullshit, and after a week or so I didn't care anymore. Then 9/11 happened. I felt like my world had been shattered. The effect that event had on me changed my life. I sat by the TV for a couple weeks, watching what was happening in the world. The President gave that speach to the nation in Congress a day or two after it happened. It helped me. It gave me hope, and it showed me that we had a very strong, dedicated President that was determined to try to stop this from happening again. So far he has been successful.




That is one of the saddest things I have ever read....

The brainwashing machine is in full effect....




Just because I am not an anarchist conspiracy theorist does not mean I am brain washed. I am so sorry that I like the job our president has done, and am not as cool as you. Besides, what from that indicates brainwashing? There has not been another attack has there? I was relaying my feelings at the time. Why don't you try contributing something to the discussion instead of just spewing crap that does not make any sense, so you can look cool.


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Anonymous

Re: 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1676864 - 07/01/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I have to admit something here. When Bush was elected I was pissed. I was buying all the 'he stole the election' bullshit, and after a week or so I didn't care anymore. Then 9/11 happened. I felt like my world had been shattered. The effect that event had on me changed my life. I sat by the TV for a couple weeks, watching what was happening in the world. The President gave that speach to the nation in Congress a day or two after it happened. It helped me. It gave me hope, and it showed me that we had a very strong, dedicated President that was determined to try to stop this from happening again. So far he has been successful.




You are correct that not being an anarchist conspiracy theorist does not = being brainwashed. Of course, that wasn't why I was calling you brainwashed. You made that post, not me, and it's pretty clear which one of is asleep here.


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