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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1671246 - 06/29/03 12:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: zeronio]
    #1671335 - 06/29/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zeronio said:
Take a look at this:
http://www.cnni.co.uk/resources/video.almanac/1989/tiananmen/tianamen.tanks.large.27sec.mov

Another stupid fuck, I guess...



I've been aware of that since it happened.

You can show me as many examples of people standing in front of tanks, bulldozers, or any other object capable of crushing you as you like.

If you, or anyone else chooses to do so, my response will not change.

It takes a incredibly stupid fuck to do so. Period.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1671572 - 06/29/03 03:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You *know* she tried to get out of the way, having believed the dozer would stop, but tripped and fell, right? Are you disagreeing with the right to take direct protest actions?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671580 - 06/29/03 03:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

To me she was a traitor anyway. I don't care if you disagree with policy or not, don't burn the flag. Try to change what it is you don't agree with. The flag represents everyone in America, not just the government. You do have the right to do this if you want. Try it in my front yard and see what happens.

If you are dumb enough to go to the most troubled place in the world, and stand in front of a charging bull dozer, you deserve a Darwin award.


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Anonymous

Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: shakta]
    #1671601 - 06/29/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You allow your self and your peers to be symbolized by a flag? Is it ok to burn different kinds of flags in America? Burning the flag is a symbol of dissent. Something breaking away from a unified, homogenous mass.

I encourage flag burning where it is warranted, and hope others will too.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: shakta]
    #1671604 - 06/29/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Uh oh, the patriotism argument. The last resort, intended to intimidate and leave no room for counterpoint. Fuck that.

1) What are you talking about with burning the flag?
2) In any case, burning the flag is a *right* that is in no way connected to being a traitor. BEing a traitor is doing things like selling nuclear secrets to the chinese, or allowing planes to crash into tall buildings.
3) She was there because of her convictions that the Palestinians were suffering badly, and she wished to help them. The International Solidarity Movement, which she was part of, in case you missed it either won or was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. They are bringing public attention to the issue - they are newsmakers - and as such they do a good job. Stupidity is in no way involved. Stupidity is buying one side of the argument to the exclusion of the other.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671689 - 06/29/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are you disagreeing with the right to take direct protest actions?



I could be wrong here as I'm not 100% familiar with the rights of the Palestinians and people on their soil, but I'm not aware of a right to protest in the Middle East.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672003 - 06/29/03 08:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Man you dodge just about every direct question I throw to you.

Let's use Hitler, since he's such a strong case that we can all agree on. If you lived at the time, and perceived that he was causing misery to, say, the Jews in Warsaw, and decided to go to Warsaw as part of a protest organization to help alleviate the suffering by drawing world and thus political attention to the fucked-uppedness of the reality of the situation, then wouldn't you be justified? How is what she did any different? Whether or not they had "rights" to protest in Warsaw in irrelevant; it is a fundamental right (freedom) to be able to protest, and draw attention to, that which you perceive to be unjust and/or fucked up.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672019 - 06/29/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't dodge any of your questions. You just don't like the answers.

I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Warsaw and protest against Hitler. I like living.

If you're so convinced you have a fundemental right to protest where-ever you like, go to Iran and protest against the rulers.

Or to Zimbabwe and protest against the land being taken from those who have farmed it for years.

Or perhaps to the Sudan to protest against slavery.

How is what she did different? I'm amazed I have to explain this to you but she stood in front of a moving piece of equipment weighing several tons.

What may be a right in some countries is a death or prison sentence in many more.

Clear enough for you?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672045 - 06/29/03 08:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

She was a human rights worker. She was changing the system in her own way. Me, I'm happy doing my thing here; I am not driven towards the human rights movement. I think she was incredibly brave to choose her path, if you like. I don't think she was stupid, and I think to call her stupid betrays a lack of understanding of her motivations.

And, again, she didn't stand in front of the bulldozer until she was crushed. She tried to get out of the way when she saw that the bulldozer wasn't going to stop, and was crushed. It is a tried and tested tactic among human rights workers (one of whose primary functions is to work as newsmakers) to stand in front of tanks, bulldozers, etc, and force them to stop. Unfortunately in this case the soldier driving the bulldozer didn't follow the usual pattern - either he was a fanatic, or he was asleep at the wheel. You can't blame her for his problems.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672046 - 06/29/03 08:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You can explain what she did any way you wish

It was stupid.

The world is a better place with less stupid people.

EDIT:
By the way, if by doing your thing here you mean on this site, you're wasting your time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672055 - 06/29/03 08:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You're one stubborn ass. But that's OK.

No I don't mean on this site. I'm on this site to exchange views and obtain as accurate a picture of reality as is achievable. Being agnostic as most of the left are, I'm open to fresh ideas, each of which I evalutate on its own merit. Having no core ideology, if you present me with a logical argument on some issue, I'll change my mind. I do object to the dogma which many of the right seem to carry around, and which you seemingly try to beat onto others with a stick.

So again, why not address the point, rather than just repeating yours ad infinitum?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672061 - 06/29/03 08:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I've addressed the point a ridiculous number of times here in this thread and in another on this very subject.

If it's not plain to you I'm not sure what else I can add that would make it so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672083 - 06/29/03 09:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Here, I thought I'd save you the trouble...

Quote:

Yup he wasS STUPID.

You must see the difference between standing in front of a moving tank and a soldier getting killed while fighting.

Standing up for your beliefs when there is a chance you might make a difference is brave.

Standing up for your beliefs when there is no chance you might make a difference is stupid.

Standing in front of a moving tank or bulldozer is stupidity, pure and simple.

There are better ways to work for change. If they were still here, they could work for change. How many remember the name of the guy in the square? How many will remember the name of the woman who stood in front of the bulldozer, two weeks from now?

If you give your life piulling someone from a burning car, that's brave.
If you climb into a burning car to make a point, that's stupid.





The link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672097 - 06/29/03 09:17 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you. I thought I addressed that point, so I'm wondering why you were repeating yourself. OK, let me try to present an answer to your dilemma in slightly different terms.

If you see somebody getting mugged in the middle of a desert by forty thieves on horseback, your best bet if you want to help ther person is to hide until the thieves have disappeared, and then see what can be done.

If you see somebody being mugged by forty thieves in the middle of a crowded public arena, and you perceive that the public's attention is not on the mugging, your best bet towards helping that person is to draw the attention to the incident in some manner or another.

With Palestine, as I've said in two other threads, the American public's attention is squarely on the Israeli side. Because of the way our news operates, we believe we have the whole picture, whereas in general there is an Israeli bias. We certainly rarely if ever have a Palestinian bias in our media.

These solidarity movements believe that with their presence in the location, they can draw attention to the problem. I see this as a legitimate form of working to improve the situation.

To stand in front of a tank in the desert when nobody is watching is stupid. When the eyes of the world are on you, your action leaves an indebible imprint in the minds of the world. I'm sure most of us can picture that chinese student standing in Tianemmon square, and that our views of China are partly shaped by that image. His action was thus powerful.

Her action was also powerful.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672100 - 06/29/03 09:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You're not going to sway me on this.

She was stupid.

The world needs less stupid people.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672102 - 06/29/03 09:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Was the chinese student stupid, also?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672115 - 06/29/03 09:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You're making it difficult to be polite. Go read the link I provided, then give this a rest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1672174 - 06/29/03 09:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm just pressing for an explanation from you deeper than "anybody who stands in front of a tank or bulldozer is stupid." My point was that it entirely depends on the context, and your response to my point seems to be "well, she was stupid." As much as I'd like to be able to read your mind to understand why you think she was stupid, I can't - as I see it the context of the situation is one which requires a different word than "stupid" to explain her actions. Clear enough for you?

Now what link?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Israeli soldiers exonerated in death of peace activist [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672189 - 06/29/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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