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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1666975 - 06/27/03 09:43 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

the idea that paying people to not work is good for the people that do work is absurd.

Any reasoning behind that? You've seen the math. What exactly are you disputing?

Take away welfare and you have desperate people willing to do any job for 10 cents an hour. What do you think will happen to people already employed in those jobs who earn 10 bucks an hour? Will their wage increase or decrease?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667045 - 06/27/03 10:07 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

his theory about welfare would be sound if it were possible to pull wealth out of thin air. as it is, there is a limited amount of wealth. it is possible to pull money out of thin air, but money is not wealth, and this is the distinction that both you and mr. newman are missing.

he is saying that by taking wealth away from some people and giving it to others, we end up with a net amount of more wealth: both welfare recipients and workers get more wealth.

if i add 1 and 5, it equals six. if i subtract 2 from the 5 and add it to the 1, the sum of the resulting two 3's will still equal 6, not 7 or 8 or 9.

i'm not going to do his math because his argument ignores the fact that market attributes are all interrelated and changing one results in a change in the others. he ignores the fact that minimum wages and welfare, while increasing wages for the poor, also drive up the cost of everything and at the same time cause unemployment.

if it were possible to just eliminate poverty by decreeing that everyone just be given more, his theory would be sound. if we could just print extra money, or pull consumer goods out of the sky, it would work.

once when i was about 5 years old, i came up with a great idea to solve poverty. it involved simply paying everyone alot of money. since then, i've learned a little more about economics.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667080 - 06/27/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

his theory about welfare would be sound if it were possible to pull money out of thin air

Have you even read the article? You must have missed this:

So where are these increased wages coming from? Some of it comes
from increased growth due to higher consumer demand, some from increased costs passed onto consumers, but in the end, in highly competitive markets employing minimum wage workers, the largest chunk come out of the profits and executive compensation of corporate stockholders. And there's the reason why both welfare payments and the minimum wage are opposed so vociferously by corporations and their legislative allies.

It's no coincidence that conservatives support both eliminating
welfare payments and lowering the minimum wage. Moving people from
welfare into the workplace drives down wages, and the last thing
conservatives (supported massively by low-wage employers) want is to have the government prevent wages from falling. And by keeping welfare payments low or non-existent, they can create fear of unemployment from raising the minimum wage or supporting other policies to raise wages.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667096 - 06/27/03 10:34 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

the fundamental flaw in mr. newman's vision is that he argues that by paying people to NOT work (not produce wealth) there will be more net wealth in society. this should be a tipoff to any thinking person that he has overlooked critical variables and that his idea is flawed.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667101 - 06/27/03 10:41 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Could you elaborate on that a little? You're still not offering anything that even remotely begins to contradict anything he's said.

What do you think will happen to wages when you have large numbers of desperate people willing to work for 10 cents an hour?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667109 - 06/27/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know how people can say welfare just perpetuates laziness other bad stuff. Welfare has a time limit. You can't stay on it forever. You have to get a job inevitably. I told my mom I was going to live off of welfare and she said you can only be on it for a year or something. I think welfare would be good for people who can't find a job right now.... to tide them over until a democrat gets into office and we can get jobs again.  :smile:

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667113 - 06/27/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Could you elaborate on that a little? You're still not offering anything that even remotely begins to contradict anything he's said.

my last post needs no elaboration. it clearly and concisely contradicts what he's saying. how is it that paying people to not produce goods will result in a greater amount of goods produced?

money is just paper. i'm talking about wealth: actual goods and services. paying people more money has no effect on their purchasing power unless there is a corresponding increase of actual goods and services on the market. i learned that before i entered preschool.

paying people to sit on their ass does not increase the amount of wealth we have to go around. if that were the case, we could just pay almost everyone to not work, and we'd all live like kings.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667162 - 06/27/03 11:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

but in the end, in highly competitive markets employing minimum wage workers, the largest chunk come out of the profits and executive compensation of corporate stockholders.



What a load of crap.

Corporations would merely raise the price of it's goods to recoup the losses. Since all corporations would be in the same boat, there would be no fear of lost business to stop them.

The author is, quite simply, foolish.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667329 - 06/27/03 02:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

my last post needs no elaboration. it clearly and concisely contradicts what he's saying

No it doesn't. He is saying how does placing thousands of desperate people into the job market to work for 10 cents an hour have any positive effect on wages? I'm sure the executives who can pay someone 10 cents an hour instead of 10 bucks an hour will make increased profits, but the vast majority of people in the country will see their wages plummet.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1667336 - 06/27/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The author is, quite simply, foolish.

Thanks for that reasoned, intellectual response.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667352 - 06/27/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

wages will go down. productivity will go up. prices will go down.

i don't know how i can make this any more clear:

It does not MATTER how much paper money people are paid. The amount of paper people have is not an indicator of WEALTH or BUYING POWER. What matters is the actual amount of GOODS and SERVICES produced in the market to be distributed amongst the people. If there are MORE goods and services, the people as a whole will be wealthier. If there are LESS, the people as a whole will be poorer. The scheme he's talking about (paying people to NOT work so as to increase wages for everyone else) will certainly increase wages, but it will cause LESS goods and services to be produced. People may get paid more, but there is more to WEALTH than how much you're paid.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667362 - 06/27/03 02:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You're welcome.

It doesn't change the fact the guy is a putz.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667376 - 06/27/03 02:29 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

So you're now agreeing that making thousands of people enter the job market for 10 cents an hour will drive down wages?

But that we shouldn't worry about our wages dropping from 10 bucks an hour in january to 10 cents an hour in february because actually we'll be better off?

It's a novel argument I'll give you that.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667381 - 06/27/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

if bread costs $10 a loaf and you're getting paid $10 an hour, you're worse off than in a situation where bread costs $3 a loaf and you make $5 an hour.

paying people to NOT WORK reduces the amount of goods and services we produce. people getting paid more really doesn't matter.

unless paying a portion of our population to not work actually causes us to be more productive as a society (i'd like to see that one explained), prices (and taxes) will go down more than wages will if welfare is cut.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667384 - 06/27/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

paying people to NOT WORK reduces the amount of goods and services we produce

Remember we're not paying them to NOT WORK. We're paying them to NOT WORK FOR TEN CENTS AN HOUR. There is a difference.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: Xlea321]
    #1667388 - 06/27/03 02:34 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

forget it alex. i have a great idea founded on the principles of Newmanism. tommorow, everyone will stop working. the only people with jobs will be those working at the cash presses. they will be payed $100 an hour for their work and everyone else will receive a welfare check matching this. poverty is solved, and we're all rich.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Welfare in tribal societies [Re: ]
    #1667391 - 06/27/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well that's got absolutely nothing to do with the point we're discussing but if you want to, you go ahead  :thumbup: 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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