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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny
#16646947 - 08/05/12 12:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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So I have some questions about phylogeny but I want to make this thread into a welcoming atmosphere for everyone to ask questions and comment freely. Here's the definition of phylogeny phy·log·e·ny fīˈläjənē:
"(It's) the history of the evolution of a species or group, especially in reference to lines of descent and relationships among broad groups of organisms.
Fundamental to phylogeny is the proposition, universally accepted in the scientific community, that plants or animals of different species descended from common ancestors. The evidence for such relationships, however, is nearly always incomplete, for the vast majority of species that have ever lived are extinct, and relatively few of their remains have been preserved in the fossil record. Most phylogenies therefore are hypotheses and are based on indirect evidence. Different phylogenies often emerge using the same evidence. Nevertheless, there is universal agreement that the tree of life is the result of organic descent from earlier ancestors and that true phylogenies are discoverable, at least in principle."
So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
#16647085 - 08/05/12 12:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the question is more or less moot to begin with. A species as we witness it is nothing more or less than a genetic snapshot, taken at one particular place and at one particular time. Sometimes, we see a lot of similarities between snapshots, and then we call something a 'species'. But it's all just a bunch of genes, really.
Which is my way of saying: this is probably going to be an interesting debate, but most of it will go right over my head
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,724
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: koraks]
#16648680 - 08/05/12 05:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I suspect mushrooms that have highly specialized habitats, like many psilocybes, probably evolve into distinct species rather quickly due to population isolation. I think of a population of ovoids, which pretty much are bound to the riparian zone of a single creek/river system probably rarely share genetic material with populations on other creeks/river. Downstream, when creeks merge, there will be intermingling, but ovoids seem to propagate in one direction and the further upstream the more isolated the genotypes.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: koods]
#16660416 - 08/07/12 01:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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TimmiT
Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
#16665165 - 08/08/12 09:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
I have attached a good article (from Fungal Genetics and Biology 31, 21–32 (2000)) that you may find interesting. Your questions are very hard to answer and may be more complicated than you expected. It comes down to the very definition of a species.
An excerpt from the paper that may help answer one of your questions: "None of the methods of species recognition can recognize the moment that individuals in an ancestral species are split into progeny species"
Your question about time is equally hard to answer. There's no way to measure speciation as that would require two distinct points in time. Also, evolution does not occur at a constant rate but is influenced by many factors.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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RiverDweller1
Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 4,347
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: TimmiT]
#16665191 - 08/08/12 09:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi Timmi, something isn't working with the link. Thanks for posting it, looking forward to reading it.
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Stopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,390
Loc: Melbourne
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: RiverDweller1]
#16665213 - 08/08/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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RiverDweller1
Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 4,347
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Stopwhispering]
#16665228 - 08/08/12 09:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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aha! ty.
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
Loc: Rhode Island
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
#16665303 - 08/08/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
gsharpnolack said: So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?
I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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Ganzig
It's for the street cred
Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Terry M]
#16665562 - 08/08/12 10:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terry M said:
Quote:
gsharpnolack said: So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?
I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.
This is one of those topics where a bit of education is needed before actually getting to some really meaty discussion. So many concepts will come up and will need to be explained and defined in virtually every sentance. It will be too much work. Get your nose in some books. An intro biology class or anthropology class at your local community college would do the trick.
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I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
Edited by Ganzig (08/08/12 10:54 AM)
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Ganzig]
#16667557 - 08/08/12 07:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TimmiT said: I have attached a good article (from Fungal Genetics and Biology 31, 21–32 (2000)) that you may find interesting. Your questions are very hard to answer and may be more complicated than you expected. It comes down to the very definition of a species.
An excerpt from the paper that may help answer one of your questions: "None of the methods of species recognition can recognize the moment that individuals in an ancestral species are split into progeny species"
Your question about time is equally hard to answer. There's no way to measure speciation as that would require two distinct points in time. Also, evolution does not occur at a constant rate but is influenced by many factors.
Excellent and concise! Thank you for responding with substance, T!
Quote:
Stopwhispering said: Here's a webpage link to it.
Team work like this always goes overlooked! Not today. Thank you to my Australian friend!
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Terry M said: I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.
I started reading it a few days ago.
Quote:
Ganzig said:
This is one of those topics where a bit of education is needed before actually getting to some really meaty discussion. So many concepts will come up and will need to be explained and defined in virtually every sentance. It will be too much work. Get your nose in some books. An intro biology class or anthropology class at your local community college would do the trick.
I respectfully and strongly disagree!
I've found that people who want to exchange knowledge find a way to do it!
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Ganzig
It's for the street cred
Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
#16667606 - 08/08/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I respectfully and strongly disagree!
I've found that people who want to exchange knowledge find a way to do it!
Never claimed it could not be done. Nor did I claim that one could not gain benefits by doing so. Just saying that there are many concepts that are difficult (IMO) and taking a class will get one prepared to have heady discussions.
But heck yes, I get your point. There is no reason not to talk about it.
Better than not talking at all. Carry on. It will be a rad convo no matter what I am sure.
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I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Ganzig]
#16682130 - 08/11/12 01:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Does anyone have a copy of Observations on the evolution of Psilocybe and description of four new hallucinogenic species from Mexican tropical forests?
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