Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny
    #16646947 - 08/05/12 12:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So I have some questions about phylogeny but I want to make this thread into a welcoming atmosphere for everyone to ask questions and comment freely. Here's the definition of phylogeny phy·log·e·ny fīˈläjənē:

"(It's) the history of the evolution of a species or group, especially in reference to lines of descent and relationships among broad groups of organisms.

Fundamental to phylogeny is the proposition, universally accepted in the scientific community, that plants or animals of different species descended from common ancestors. The evidence for such relationships, however, is nearly always incomplete, for the vast majority of species that have ever lived are extinct, and relatively few of their remains have been preserved in the fossil record. Most phylogenies therefore are hypotheses and are based on indirect evidence. Different phylogenies often emerge using the same evidence. Nevertheless, there is universal agreement that the tree of life is the result of organic descent from earlier ancestors and that true phylogenies are discoverable, at least in principle."

So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,697
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
    #16647085 - 08/05/12 12:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think the question is more or less moot to begin with. A species as we witness it is nothing more or less than a genetic snapshot, taken at one particular place and at one particular time. Sometimes, we see a lot of similarities between snapshots, and then we call something a 'species'. But it's all just a bunch of genes, really.

Which is my way of saying: this is probably going to be an interesting debate, but most of it will go right over my head :lol:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,724
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 33 minutes, 24 seconds
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: koraks]
    #16648680 - 08/05/12 05:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I suspect mushrooms that have highly specialized habitats, like many psilocybes, probably evolve into distinct species rather quickly due to population isolation.  I think of a population of ovoids, which pretty much are bound to the riparian zone of a single creek/river system probably rarely share genetic material with populations on other creeks/river. Downstream, when creeks merge, there will be intermingling, but ovoids seem to propagate in one direction and the further upstream the more isolated the genotypes.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: koods]
    #16660416 - 08/07/12 01:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

For anyone interested in reading more about this subject: http://www.biology.duke.edu/fungi/mycolab/agaricphylogeny_start.html

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTimmiTM
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
    #16665165 - 08/08/12 09:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

I have attached a good article (from Fungal Genetics and Biology 31, 21–32 (2000)) that you may find interesting. Your questions are very hard to answer and may be more complicated than you expected. It comes down to the very definition of a species.

An excerpt from the paper that may help answer one of your questions:
"None of the methods of species recognition can
recognize the moment that individuals in an ancestral
species are split into progeny species"


Your question about time is equally hard to answer. There's no way to measure speciation as that would require two distinct points in time. Also, evolution does not occur at a constant rate but is influenced by many factors.


--------------------
"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiverDweller1
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 4,347
Trusted Identifier
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: TimmiT]
    #16665191 - 08/08/12 09:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hi Timmi, something isn't working with the link.  Thanks for posting it, looking forward to reading it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,390
Loc: Melbourne Flag
Trusted Identifier
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: RiverDweller1]
    #16665213 - 08/08/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRiverDweller1
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 4,347
Trusted Identifier
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Stopwhispering]
    #16665228 - 08/08/12 09:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

aha!  ty.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTerry M
Stranger in a Strange Land
Male


Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
Loc: Rhode Island
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
    #16665303 - 08/08/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gsharpnolack said:
So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?



I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGanzig
It's for the street cred
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon Flag
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Terry M]
    #16665562 - 08/08/12 10:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

gsharpnolack said:
So my first question is this: If we trace the lineage of mushrooms and begin with a species like Psilocybe semilanceata for instance, we have to find its producer. How did its producer initiate P. semilanceata? How long is it likely to have taken before it could produce P. semilanceata?



I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.




:thumbup:

This is one of those topics where a bit of education is needed before
actually getting to some really meaty discussion.
So many concepts will come up and will need to be explained and defined
in virtually every sentance. It will be too much work. Get your nose
in some books. An intro biology class or anthropology class at your local
community college would do the trick.


--------------------
I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this.

Edited by Ganzig (08/08/12 10:54 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Ganzig]
    #16667557 - 08/08/12 07:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TimmiT said:
I have attached a good article (from Fungal Genetics and Biology 31, 21–32 (2000)) that you may find interesting. Your questions are very hard to answer and may be more complicated than you expected. It comes down to the very definition of a species.

An excerpt from the paper that may help answer one of your questions:
"None of the methods of species recognition can
recognize the moment that individuals in an ancestral
species are split into progeny species"


Your question about time is equally hard to answer. There's no way to measure speciation as that would require two distinct points in time. Also, evolution does not occur at a constant rate but is influenced by many factors.




Excellent and concise! Thank you for responding with substance, T!


Quote:

Stopwhispering said:
Here's a webpage link to it.

:grin:




Team work like this always goes overlooked! Not today. Thank you to my Australian friend!


Quote:

Terry M said:
I don't think there's any way to determine this. All species of every living thing evolve via variation and natural selection. To learn how this works, I'd go right to the source: Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." You can get it from any library in the world. It's really very readable, and provides a ton of insight into how Nature works.




I started reading it a few days ago.


Quote:

Ganzig said:

This is one of those topics where a bit of education is needed before
actually getting to some really meaty discussion.
So many concepts will come up and will need to be explained and defined
in virtually every sentance. It will be too much work. Get your nose
in some books. An intro biology class or anthropology class at your local
community college would do the trick.





I respectfully and strongly disagree!

I've found that people who want to exchange knowledge find a way to do it!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGanzig
It's for the street cred
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 8,206
Loc: Oregon Flag
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: The Lightning]
    #16667606 - 08/08/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I respectfully and strongly disagree!

I've found that people who want to exchange knowledge find a way to do it!




Never claimed it could not be done. Nor did I claim that one could not gain
benefits by doing so. Just saying that there are many concepts that are
difficult (IMO) and taking a class will get one prepared to have heady discussions.

But heck yes, I get your point. There is no reason not to talk about it.

Better than not talking at all. Carry on. It will be a rad convo no matter what I am sure. :sunny:


--------------------
I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
I must keep reminding myself of this.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
Re: A Beginning Discussion About Phylogeny [Re: Ganzig]
    #16682130 - 08/11/12 01:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Does anyone have a copy of Observations on the evolution of Psilocybe and description of four new hallucinogenic species from Mexican tropical forests?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Psilocybe semilanceata (Liberty Caps) for New Hunters
( 1 2 3 4 all )
ivi 137,556 63 04/29/10 11:57 AM
by German Kahuna
* New paper on Psilocybe phylogeny Alan RockefellerM 945 4 08/11/13 07:07 AM
by Bobzimmer
* P. Semilanceata or what? Pictures inc...
( 1 2 all )
papayafuzz 3,558 20 10/21/03 10:10 AM
by Mitchnast
* Semilanceata hunting in colder areas Grib_iz_Pitera 834 2 09/12/05 01:06 PM
by GoKart
* Psilocybe Semilanceata in Western Norway Krishna 5,537 4 10/03/15 05:54 AM
by Toadsdrool
* More P. Semilanceatas? Pictures inc.. confirm please... papayafuzz 2,106 16 10/10/03 08:43 AM
by T0aD
* The season begins. mshrm 1,690 14 09/10/02 07:22 AM
by UKBeatnik
* P. Semilanceata, im 99% SURE!! ShroomyJ 2,098 13 09/11/03 08:31 AM
by ShroomyJ

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: ToxicMan, inski, Alan Rockefeller, Duggstar, TimmiT, Anglerfish, Tmethyl, Lucis, Doc9151, Land Trout
1,058 topic views. 1 members, 15 guests and 16 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.