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OfflineCyber
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Cloning an Abort
    #16634876 - 08/02/12 04:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I was wondering, are aborts genetic or environmental? If they are genetic, then cloning an abort will produce more aborts and if they are not genetic, then the clone of the abort will produce mushrooms.

Are clones of aborts less stable, could the clone be less stable than one of say a fully formed fruit in that it produces more aborts?

Lets see, I just started tissue clones of a couple of aborts as well as a couple of fruit bodies. They are on agar and once grown out Ill do cakes of each and measure the output.

Comments?

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Invisibleuncle_rico
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16634957 - 08/02/12 04:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I like to work with cultures that thrive in the conditions I provide.

Aborts, for whatever reason, are not thriving.  Might be an 'old' culture that is in decline or a culture that is not tolerating some aspect of my conditions.


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Offlinehyphalover
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: uncle_rico]
    #16634998 - 08/02/12 05:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Its a mix of genetic and environment, or either. There plenty of reasons why a mushroom would abort, but you could try clone one. Under different conditions the mushrooms genes may do better.


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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: hyphalover]
    #16635028 - 08/02/12 05:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with hyphalover.

More than half of all human pregnancies end with miscarriage, spontaneous abortion, often early enough nobody notices.
Sometimes the fetus is defective, sometimes conditions aren't right for implantation, sometimes the mother's body rejects it.

IOW, clone and post pics. :rockon:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16636242 - 08/02/12 08:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I doubt seriously one could clone dead tissue.  Give it a try though and let us know how it goes.
RR


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16641291 - 08/03/12 07:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So, some want some pictures..

This is 48 hours after taking the core samples and putting them on agar.

The first two are examples of clones from aborts. There is some growth but the amount of growth is minimum.





This is a core taken from the healthy mushroom. As you can see it has far more vigorous growth.



More to come, it is interesting as I am not sure anyone has tried this before.

BTW RR, there does not have to be much live material for a mycelia clone to take off. Even if the abort is dead a few live cells should be enough to start the process. This abort had the standard black head but had not reached the point of being soft. The first picture was a sample taken from the bottom 1/2 of the abort and the second picture was taken from the top 1/2 of the abort.

Edited by Cyber (08/03/12 07:24 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16643898 - 08/04/12 09:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If you want a whole flush of aborts, forget genetics and simply run your hands over a nice flush of early primordia.  Doing so will disturb them and cause nearly all to abort.
RR


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16649996 - 08/05/12 09:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

RR, I know you can damage primordia and force aborts. The question was if some sub-strains are more prone to abort. Is there a genetic variable?

I am not trying to create all aborts. Though if it does, I would take a close look at the mycelia of the strain that had a propensity to abort.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16652312 - 08/06/12 08:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Aborts are a natural phenomenon.  A given substrate can only support so many pins, and extras will automatically abort. That's just the way it is.  It's sort of an immune system to use a human metaphor.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineMateo
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16653547 - 08/06/12 01:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It takes a couple of days for the mushroom to abort and if you cloned early in this process you probably get something growing i think.

And most mushrooms who aborts do so because they have been disturbed or because of some environment factor.
I dont think some mushrooms have "abortion" in their DNA and i don't think you will be able to get mushrooms that all aborts by cloning an abort.
So even if you manage to get mycelium growing cloned from an abort i think chances that you get a good clone are the same as if you cloned an healthy mushroom.
But this is only what i think, others more experienced might have better info to give you.

/Mateo


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16654880 - 08/06/12 04:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Aborts are a natural phenomenon.  A given substrate can only support so many pins, and extras will automatically abort. That's just the way it is.  It's sort of an immune system to use a human metaphor.
RR




I can see this but that does not explain why in some instances 99% of a BRF cakes product will abort. I have done multi spore inoculations of multiple BRF cakes and had all but 1 give great flushes with the 1 producing 99% aborts. I know there is, and do not discount, environmental factors that can cause aborts. However, I believe that there is a DNA/sub-strain factor involved in the process.

Well it is coming along nicely so well will see.

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16658222 - 08/07/12 01:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Cyber: However, I believe that there is a DNA/sub-strain factor involved in the process.

Do you think so?
Can it not be that something in this BRF cake is a little different?
Ph, moisture, minerals or something?
Or maybee the mushroom organism deliberately made this cake abort so that the others get better chance of prospering?

Just a thought.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #16659863 - 08/07/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:


that does not explain why in some instances 99% of a BRF cakes product will abort. I have done multi spore inoculations of multiple BRF cakes and had all but 1 give great flushes with the 1 producing 99% aborts.




A 1/2 pint brf cake can only support about ten or so fruits to maturity.  If the cake makes 1000 primordia, it's normal for 99% to abort.

As far as being strain related, some strains are prolific primordia producers.  If your mycelium makes more primordia than the substrate can support, most will abort.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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OfflineGod Stamet
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16671937 - 08/09/12 03:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

want a ton of aborts? use 5 colonized jars of grains only and put them into a tray by themselves and case them immeadiately. 7 days later put that tray in the FC. did that as a newb and got a few good looking mushies and a hundreds of aborts under them. it was only on the first flush. after that lots of goodies came in later flushes


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Cloning an Abort [Re: Cyber]
    #18291291 - 05/20/13 06:34 AM (11 years, 1 day ago)

Just to update this thread and close it out, the mycelia from the clone grew to about the size of a quarter then began to slow and thin out. I tried several transfers to different types of agar nutrient recipes but the sub-strain of mycelia never did produce a good growth. As such I tossed it.

I tried it a second time with a different abort and had a similar outcome. I am left with the conclusion that there is more to an abort than just environmental reactions and that some of them may be week sub-strains when done with a multi-spore inoculation. It could also be that the mycelia mass produces something that causes the pin to abort and that the "signal" (Chemical or genetic) is stopping it from producing strong growth in the attempted clone.

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