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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Registered: 06/12/03
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Group Minds
    #1660543 - 06/25/03 04:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Group minds: do they exist?

Ants seem to have a super-mind which acts much more intelligently, and with a great deal more purpose, than individual ants.

Starlings etc can fly in groups performing intricate acrobatics without bumping wings.

Both are exhibits of a whole being greater than the sum of its parts, i.e. the synthesis of a system.

The standard positivist response is to say "ants communicate via chemical signals blah blah" but this doesn't really get to the root to the phenomenon. The cells in your body also communicate via chemical signals, and clearly your body is a greater system than any one of its component cellular parts.

On a macro level, some (i.e. Howard or Harold Bloom, the less famous one) applies the same idea to nations - superorganisms, group minds of humans, acting as a kind of oversoul, superego, whatever.

Assuming you answer yes to everything so far, is "gaia" in that case just the group mind of all consciousness on earth?

And, how conscious are group minds? Or are they just metaphors that are handy to describe and predict the actions of the group?



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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Group Minds [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1660738 - 06/25/03 07:05 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

As Douglas Hofstadter put it: "Is the soul greater than the hum of its parts?"

I think group minds are possible. I don't know if ant hills actually have minds though. And I think groups of humans exhibit a shared group mentality (within each individual mind) rather than a mind that emerges from the interactions between the group members. There are synergy effects in group interactions of course, but just like Hofstadter I think there must also be some kind of representational system in order to talk about a "mind", and I don't think groups of people have representational systems that are not already present in the components themselves (the individuals).


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Group Minds [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1660862 - 06/25/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've always wondered what EXACTLY those little buggers are sending when they touch antennae (That is when the 'communication' takes place right?). Are they sending actual positions in space? Are they sending some type of emotional initiative to do something? What?

And even more food for thought: imagine if a species like ants were to evolve into a more intelligent and complex lifeform (and bigger too.). What would you end up with?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Group Minds [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1660955 - 06/25/03 11:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Starlings etc can fly in groups performing intricate acrobatics without bumping wings.

This may not completely remove the mystery, but about 10 years ago (sorry, no link) a researcher in artificial lifeforms out of Sante Fe, NM discovered three simple rules for flocking, swarming and schooling. Each fish or bird or insect or bat keys off the ones to the side and front of it which allows movement without collision. There is no need for a group mind to explain this particular activity.

Human traffic also flows without any group mind, but by following some basic rules.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Swami]
    #1661037 - 06/25/03 12:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I've always wondered what EXACTLY those little buggers are sending when they touch antennae (That is when the 'communication' takes place right?). Are they sending actual positions in space? Are they sending some type of emotional initiative to do something? What?




Actually they're eating - they trade food back and forth when they can't find something for themselves. The chemicals they leave for each other as paths to food or away from danger or what not are perceived via something kinda like smell.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineKenny Bus
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Re: Group Minds [Re: nubious]
    #1661134 - 06/25/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

if there is a gaia wouldnt there be a clear common goal?


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KB


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Kenny Bus]
    #1661425 - 06/25/03 03:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe the common goal is to get the fuck off this planet?


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Swami]
    #1661430 - 06/25/03 03:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That's what I figured, too. I'm gonna do some research on this because I have often been extremely amazed and intrigued when I see huge flocks of birds performing incredible aerial acrobatics, almost seeming as if the flock has become "one."

Another thing along these lines that intrigues me is colonial animals. I've seen shows and read about certain marine invertebrates where many individuals actually live connected together and act and seem as if they are one single organism.

Nature certainly holds many mysteries. One of the reasons I'm studying to be a biologist is to hopefully solve some of them.

Peace,

RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Group Minds [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1661453 - 06/25/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Forgot to mention that the researcher actually created a computer program that very closely simulated flocking using artificial life entities. That was how he derived and tested the three rules.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Swami]
    #1661798 - 06/25/03 05:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I dont think there is a group mind, but I think a group mind can be defined as arising out of the interactions of the collective. An interesting book about this: Global Brain by Howard Bloom.

Craig W. Reynold invented the Boids flocking algorithm:
http://www.red3d.com/cwr/

If you want to see a demo, check this out:
http://aiplanet.sourceforge.net


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Adamist]
    #1664185 - 06/26/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe the common goal is to get the fuck off this planet?




I don't think Gaia was aware of that option until recently. But just like a thermostat has the goal and intention to keep a steady temperature, I think Gaia has been trying to keep this planet hospitable to organic life during all these years.

But now there are new options available and new goals will replace the old ones.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Group Minds [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664234 - 06/26/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one conciousness experiencing ourselves subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Group Minds [Re: barfightlard]
    #1664420 - 06/26/03 02:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I share your outlook - but my question really addresses the possibility of "ground minds" arising within the dream, so to speak.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Group Minds [Re: barfightlard]
    #1664510 - 06/26/03 02:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration




Sorry, but that's the opposite of the truth.

The truth is that matter is energy of extremely high frequency vibration, like for example 123.7 billion gigahertz for an ordinary electron in its ground (lowest energy) state. Do the math: the electron mass is 9.11e-31 kg, and its frequency equals the energy divided by Planck's constant, 6.626e-34 Js.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1665499 - 06/26/03 09:20 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Rhizoid and somebodyelse, bellylard's contention is not his own. It's taken from a Tool album skit. Someone else may have said it before though, I'm not sure.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineGixxer_boy
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Re: Group Minds [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1665523 - 06/26/03 09:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Does anyone get the feeling when your around others that there is a general mood in the group? Like, I can feel the boredom or fear or excitement or whatever in the people I'm around without any communication. I think its pheremones or something, and thats the kind of stuff that causes mob mentality's and such, so in a sense even humans have group minds, I think all social animals do.


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"Why do women have breasts?"
......
....
...
..
.
"So you can have something to look at when you're talking to them!" -Peter Griffin


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Group Minds [Re: barfightlard]
    #1665609 - 06/26/03 10:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one conciousness experiencing ourselves subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.




I must commend your amazing ability to quote Bill Hicks verbatim.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #1665971 - 06/27/03 12:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

See, I figured someone had said it first.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Group Minds [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #1689835 - 07/06/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Albino_Jesus said:
Quote:

bellylard said:
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one conciousness experiencing ourselves subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.




I must commend your amazing ability to quote Bill Hicks verbatim.




I would have said who it was from but I didn't know who said it, I just heard it in a tool song and thought it was interesting.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Group Minds [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1690278 - 07/06/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This message board is a small, but very visible portion of human collective consciousness.

The internet is merely preparation for real 'group mind'.


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