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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: 4-AcO-MET]
    #16596662 - 07/26/12 10:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

4-AcO-MET said:
You all realize that we have the largest gold reserve in the world, right?




I dont think Fort Knox hasnt been fully audited in decades either.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlined33p
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #16596693 - 07/26/12 11:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
My point exactly. It happened in 1907 with J.P. Morgan because we had no central bank then. That panic started the road to the Federal Reserve system.




There was massive gov intervention in the banking sector before the FED(the FED wasn't even the US's first central bank). The national banking acts of 1860s and associated legal tender laws established a currency monopoly and a de facto cartel of national banks that were required to secure their note issuance through the purchase of gov bonds. In the years before the 1907 panic the US treasury secretary was buying back gov bonds and messing with reserve requirements which fostered an inflationary boom/bust. This shit does not occur due to magic, animals spirits, or free market failures. Business cycles can be explained through proper economic reasoning, and in every case the primary cause turns out to be gov intervention that distorts relative prices and in turn, the structure of production.

Here's some reading: http://www.libertyclassroom.com/panics/




True. However, I'm not discussing the causes of the panic, merely the response to it and the renewed call for a central bank. By 1907 the US had been without a central bank for more than 60 years, the second bank of the US closed in 1841, I think. Panics and recessions happen in cycles in this country about every 20 years, it's nothing new, so it is wise to have a back up.

We learned that lesson in 1907 with a particularly bad economic downturn. If J.P. Morgan had not invested and pledged vast fortunes of his, other banks wouldn't have either, and the panic would have gotten much worse. Had there been a central bank at the time, the government would have been able to do what Morgan did. Morgan actually saved us again that year when US Steel bought TC&I. The government was powerless to help in both situations, and got lucky that Morgan decided to get involved.

Relying on the money of private banks to come around whenever there is a panic is risky business. That's why after the panic we got the Aldrich–Vreeland Act and, eventually, the Federal Reserve.




*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Offline4-AcO-MET
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: d33p]
    #16596816 - 07/26/12 11:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I dont think Fort Knox hasnt been fully audited in decades either.




:tinfoil:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16596947 - 07/26/12 11:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

Shins said:
327 - 98

The senite is stalling on voting however.

Do you think the Federal Reserve needs more transparancy and accountability to congress and the american people?  Or do you think it needs secrecy in order to best fulfil its stated dual mandate of employment and low inflation?





Of course it needs complete transparency. Its never been audited before and has such a huge
impact on the economy.






What's your source for that?  The fed member banks are audited all the time, as are the policies/actions the board of governors takaes.  Is this another one of those claims you make and can't back up?

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: johnm214]
    #16596973 - 07/27/12 12:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Not a information in the audits is disclosed or complete.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: d33p]
    #16597024 - 07/27/12 12:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.



The Federal Reserve causes panics???  I can't wait to read your evidence.  :popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: Shins]
    #16597162 - 07/27/12 01:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly- deadhearts is either misrepresenting the reality or has no idea what he's talking about.

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: d33p]
    #16597212 - 07/27/12 01:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.




I am advocating for policies that will allow the government to sure up the economy if/when it tanks. Relying on private banks to do so is risky.

And that's a pretty broad generalization you made there. Lots of things cause panics, having a central bank is not necessarily one of them. It's policies can cause panics, but just having one does not.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: BoldAsLove] * 2
    #16600523 - 07/27/12 03:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

d33p said:
*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.



The Federal Reserve causes panics???  I can't wait to read your evidence.  :popcorn:




Did you read my first post that addressed gov policies causing panics before the FED? The unsustainable credit expansion enabled by the Federal Reserve System mirrors that which occurred due to the actions of the US Treasury and the national banking cartel in the early 20th century. Similar gov policies caused most of the panics in the 19th century.

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

d33p said:
*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.




I am advocating for policies that will allow the government to sure up the economy if/when it tanks. Relying on private banks to do so is risky.

And that's a pretty broad generalization you made there. Lots of things cause panics, having a central bank is not necessarily one of them. It's policies can cause panics, but just having one does not.




All you can do is repeat platitudes about wanting to "sure up the economy" during panics. Your favored solutions cause them! Homogenization and centralization of the banking sector by the gov facilitates widespread credit expansion beyond what can be supported by savings leading to panics. Free banking would create a more robust economy that is resistant/adaptable to panics, in large part due to it's more heterogeneous nature which prevents contagion.

"A cause of panics" would have been clearer I suppose. And that's a pretty weak rationalization you made there. 'Lots of things cause problems, having a despot is not necessarily one of them. It's policies can cause problems, but just having one does not.' You are supporting a gov currency monopoly and central bank administered by a quasi-private banking cartel. That 'central banks cause panics' is not an analytic proposition is irrelevant. With a reasonable set of assumptions, one can logically deduce that they cause boom/bust economic cycles.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #16601212 - 07/27/12 05:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

d33p said:
*facepalm* You are advocating for polices to remedy/prevent panics, when those policies are in fact the cause of panics.




I am advocating for policies that will allow the government to sure up the economy if/when it tanks. Relying on private banks to do so is risky.




:facepalm:
The Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank. The Federal Reserve Board of Governors is a separate and public entity. If you do not want private banks running the show you should support the abolition of the Federal Reserve Bank and it's replacement with the power of the treasury to produce money as the constitution gives it the power to.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: d33p]
    #16603711 - 07/28/12 01:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Federal Reserve causes panics???  I can't wait to read your evidence.  :popcorn:




Did you read my first post that addressed gov policies causing panics before the FED? The unsustainable credit expansion enabled by the Federal Reserve System mirrors that which occurred due to the actions of the US Treasury and the national banking cartel in the early 20th century. Similar gov policies caused most of the panics in the 19th century.



Yes, I read your post, where you talk about the 1907 panic. Do you realize that's exactly what led to the creation of the Federal Reserve?  And the credit expansion is not unsustainable.  Yes, Government taking on too much debt is a problem, but that has nothing to do with the Fed.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,827
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16605041 - 07/28/12 09:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The Federal Reserve causes panics???  I can't wait to read your evidence.  :popcorn:




Did you read my first post that addressed gov policies causing panics before the FED? The unsustainable credit expansion enabled by the Federal Reserve System mirrors that which occurred due to the actions of the US Treasury and the national banking cartel in the early 20th century. Similar gov policies caused most of the panics in the 19th century.



Yes, I read your post, where you talk about the 1907 panic. Do you realize that's exactly what led to the creation of the Federal Reserve?  And the credit expansion is not unsustainable.  Yes, Government taking on too much debt is a problem, but that has nothing to do with the Fed.





Yeah the FED really helped out by steering the country away from panic and debt in 1927
only 20 years after it was created huh?

So you are saying the FED has nothing to do with interest rates that helped cause the
great depression in 1927?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16605075 - 07/28/12 10:06 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Interest rates caused the depression?:facepalm:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/26/eight-co-sponsors-of-audit-the-fed-bill-vote-against-it-without-explanation/

Quote:

But lost in the bipartisan revelry was the fact that eight co-sponsors of the legislation actually voted against it.

Spokesmen for each of these congressmen were contacted by The Daily Caller on Thursday, and none were keen on providing an explanation.

The bill would allow the Government Accountability Office to conduct a thorough audit of the Federal Reserve System, tremendously increasing transparency and accountability, in theory.

All House Republicans voted in favor of the bill, except for New York Rep. Bob Turner. Ninety-seven Democrats β€” notably including the party’s House leadership β€” voted against the bill, and 89 Democrats voted in favor.

The eight co-sponsors, all Democrats, that voted against their own legislation not only sponsored the 2012 bill, but each also co-sponsored its 2009 incarnation.

.............................

The eight House Democrats who switched their stance on the issue without an explanation find themselves in good company, with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid also pulling off a mystifying pivot.

In 2010 and 1995, Reid boasted that he had tried in vain to pass legislation to audit the Fed. The Nevada senator, however, is now refusing to bring the bill, which would fulfill his self-professed yearning, to a Senate vote.

Like the eight congressmen, Reid has ignored requests for comment.




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InvisibleDeadHearts

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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16605111 - 07/28/12 10:13 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think I said they caused the GD did I?. I said they helped.

If you don't think the fed had anything to do with it ya nuts.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16605277 - 07/28/12 10:46 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Should the fed be used to prop up an unsustainable government or businesses though?

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InvisibleDeadHearts

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Posts: 21,827
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: teknix]
    #16605303 - 07/28/12 10:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I dont know. What I do know is that with so much (influence) for lack of a better word the
people should be able to know how and why they conduct business the way they do. What are they
hiding? The audit makes these people tremble in their boots and for what?

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16605326 - 07/28/12 10:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Honestly, I thought failures are supposed to fail in a capitalist economy, to make way for more innovation and sustainable methods. What is being done is the condoning of misdeeds by propping them up, imo.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16605328 - 07/28/12 10:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think any of them are trembling.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16605365 - 07/28/12 11:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Really there is only a feigned risk for big bankster investors, either they win or they win. If they don't win legitimately then they steal it back from the taxpayers. Which in turns retains the status quo.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Audit the Fed bill vote passes the house. [Re: DeadHearts]
    #16605533 - 07/28/12 11:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Yeah the FED really helped out by steering the country away from panic and debt in 1927 only 20 years after it was created huh?



The Fed can to blamed for not doing what they were supposed to do; they allowed huge numbers of banks to fail.

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
So you are saying the FED has nothing to do with interest rates that helped cause the great depression in 1927?



How did interest rates cause the Great Depression???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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