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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
"Show Me" Time!! Yay!
    #1658479 - 06/24/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Okay... I'm ready for it all.
I'm ready for a complete shift in my consciousness.
I'm ready for a transformation.

Help me believe.

Post all evidence in this thread, right here, right now.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658494 - 06/24/03 12:43 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Deleted by admin

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658508 - 06/24/03 12:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Let none deceive another,
Or despise any being in any state.
Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.
Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings:
Radiating kindness over the entire world
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outward and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.
Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.

--Shakyamuni Buddha

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1658589 - 06/24/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Okay... so I can't join the club then?

Is it because I haven't paid my dues?
I have a frickin' receipt for them!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658598 - 06/24/03 01:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

OK fine. I'll demonstrate some of my paranormal powers. stand back now...

I prophesy that nobody will be able to present you with any evidence.



whew, that took a lot out of me. I must rest.


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658718 - 06/24/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Okay... so I can't join the club then?




No, no, no, I just dug into my bag of quotes (before seeing Enter's response even) and thought that this one might contain some of the stuff that you were asking for. It was just a reaction to your call "Show Me".

Of course you can join the club. All I'm trying to say is that it takes more than a couple of grams of mushrooms to produce the shift in consciousness that you are asking for. You also need to be in a receptive state of mind.

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1658770 - 06/24/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, it's all you man, the balls in your court. you can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drunk. etc.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Malachi]
    #1658811 - 06/24/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drunk




Yeah water doesn't work to good for that. Try giving him an IV of vodka or everclear.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (06/24/03 03:12 PM)

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OfflineCockyMandrill
addict

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 404
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Malachi]
    #1658812 - 06/24/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I think, therefore I am

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: CockyMandrill]
    #1658849 - 06/24/03 03:27 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

elightenment has to be a paradox wrapped in an enigma being juggled by a koan. how could it be straightforward?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Malachi]
    #1659070 - 06/24/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

It appears that infidelGOD's prediction was correct.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1659454 - 06/24/03 07:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

What is there to believe?
What evidence do you need of change?

what if you changed and you didnt know? To me a shift in conciousness is like waking up in a dream, "going lucid". for one reason or another you "wake up" cause at first its a belief that you are in control, then it is a reality.

To me you believe what you want, cause you do it anyway, its not that i believe in that, its just thats how life is. People go around believing what they want, skepticism is the end product, isnt a belief just the trust of an idea? the same as what you hold to your own ideas?

I have changed because i have been able to and i have seen that oppurtunity and noticed that i should take it. Because i believe in the evolution of myself and the world around me. Know that you believe, be skeptical of what you believe in, believe that you are skeptical, change is a fact not a belief.  :bong:

if im not getting what your getting at LET ME KNOW!!! pleease  :grin:


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What?

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1659473 - 06/24/03 07:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Here's some right off the bat.

http://www.noetic.org/ions/archivelisting_frame.asp?ID=428

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/Ebon1.html

I ask you what is evidence. True evidence would be something like telekinesis, performed right in front of you, or an offical goverment document (signed and sealed). So i ask you what agian is evidence?
I could show you websites with studys all day and you probiblily won't believe.

Quote:

Common Misconception #3: There are only two sides, Psionics exist, or they don't.

Many diehard skeptics like Randi will say that there is no way it can exist, and they will ask for 100% repetitive accuracy that can be reproduced by anyone anytime. These criteria are impossible to meet. Psionics is still a controversial field, current evidence can lead you to either condition. We at this website are going under the scientific fact that Psionic abilities have been reproduced in government labs all around the world. Therefore, we cannot argue with the fact that they exist. So how am I skeptical? I am not skeptical of the ability, but of the person who claims to have it. Until there is some kind of evidence that he possesses the ability he claims, I consider him "possibly capable of doing what he does". "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Common Misconception #4: There is no scientific evidence for the existence of Psi.

Instead of going on in length about the Ganzfeld experiments, Soviet Research, and the CIA, I simply point you to our Scientific Research Section, which has links to many abstracts and conclusive projects that prove the existence of Psi.





www.Psipog.net


( Johnnyfive NOTE/JOKE: Its magic, if this isn't magic, what is, of course there will be no solid evidence of it. ITS MAGIC! ) magic is science and vis versa,... get it?


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

Edited by johnnyfive (06/24/03 07:19 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1659491 - 06/24/03 07:21 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Many diehard skeptics like Randi will say that there is no way it can exist, and they will ask for 100% repetitive accuracy that can be reproduced by anyone anytime.

How can I possiby believe ANYTHING on this website after this blatant lie? The Randi Million Dollar Challenge does NOT ask for 100% accuracy at all; nor under any and all conditions.

In fact, he is willing to help design the test in conjunction with the claimant.

What he does demand is, that he and his boys are allowed to check out and witness every facet of the experiment to rule out fraud and that the results so far exceed chance as to be irrefutable; otherwise everyone would just guess like in a lottery, until someone won.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/25/03 02:17 AM)

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1660280 - 06/25/03 12:32 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Damm i didn't read it,lol. I agree only with the fact that yes the website can be fraudulant. Other than that...

I agree with enter : "No one can show you the matrix. You have to see it for yourself."



--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

Edited by johnnyfive (06/25/03 07:58 PM)

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1660524 - 06/25/03 02:42 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Hokum's Maxim: Trickery must (and will) be at least suspected until subjective experience proves otherwise.

Sclorch - complete change in consciousness & transformation you say? 1) Find a *biiiiig* hammer; 2) Aim for that dent on the top of your skull....

Evidence aside, does anyone know *anyone* who had a radical and sudden *positive* complete change in consciousness? I know my consciousness has changed since I was say, 9 years old. But I can't recall any radical shifts (unless you count my first experience with dimitri, and even that changed only metaphors). My point is maybe it's just a gradual thing to be expanded?



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1661192 - 06/25/03 11:46 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

More questions and excuses, still no evidence for anything extraordinary... I guess I can't yet join the Believer's Club.

I'll bring up this thread in the future when someone claims to have evidence for {insert esoterica here}.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! *DELETED* [Re: Sclorch]
    #1661334 - 06/25/03 12:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by johnnyfive


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1661921 - 06/25/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

evidence of what? enlightenment is a feeling, sure i could describe exactly how its done, but then again would you even take my advice?, well i am gonna tell you any ways: base of spine, chin, upper lip,ears,a star will appear out of the blinking light, quite your mind, merge with it, then you will have all the evidence you need.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Anonymous

Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1662565 - 06/25/03 07:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Well I had quite a radical shift in consciousness about a year ago, in the matter of about 48 hours. It started when I came upon the Shroomery forums and there was much debate between Swami and Shroomism about aliens at that time. I had never entertained such "nonsense" before and sided mentally with the skeptics. However, my curiosity was immediately sparked and after intense nonstop research into the subject that lasted a couple days I had a tremendous spiritual awakening. I experienced altered consciousness for the first time without drugs or meditation, I saw and felt things so incredibly bizarre, thoughts that felt so "right" that they couldn't be ignored, not just about the existence of other life in the universe but about the nature of "God", our reality and existence. It was like I was alseep up until then and all of a sudden I was hit over the head with a sledge hammer. My view of reality was permanently changed, though I have refined my beliefs according to knowledge and experience I've been steadily gaining since then. I will never forget that point in my life, it changed my entire life and outlook. And all thanks to the local residents of the Shroomery S&P forum! *Raises beer in toast*

So, in conclusion, it's possible Sclorch that you might one day realize something you may have ignored or refused to "believe", but everyone learns differently and not everyone learns the same things. It's probable that not everyone is even likely to awaken so quickly as I feel I have. I don't consider myself special but I do feel lucky as my life has been generally nothing but posivity and joy ever since. Good luck to you as your quest for the Truth continues! Just never stop asking:

"Why do I exist?"

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1662977 - 06/26/03 01:46 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

whats extra ordinary?! what do you want that is out of the realm of the attainable. if it is why do you ask? its just two different mindsets with a different approach to each. we are playing god here. we have lives and we change. i dont understand this post at all. what do you want? lol. should i send an email? should i put it on your action items list or something? just let go... just let GO!!!!!!!!!!

it seems to me i see people kicking and screaming. what more can you ask yourself? state your side, explain why you believe what you do, then compare that to the other side. then ask what you are looking for, cause i cant see it from where im standing. (im not claiming a side, i just want to know what this post is really about).

maybe i should ask for evidence of a basis for this thread. cause i cant see it. (insert esoterica here)


--------------------
What?

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1663022 - 06/26/03 01:46 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Great post Zero7a1


See the movie phenomena, its similar to the expamles and ideas that cross this forum alot!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1664028 - 06/26/03 08:51 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

it seems to me i see people kicking and screaming. what more can you ask yourself? state your side, explain why you believe what you do, then compare that to the other side. then ask what you are looking for

Side A believes in the scientific method and that electron theory is basically correct. This "opinion" is transmitted electronically to others on the shroomery.

Side B believes that science is screwed up and that telepathy exists. This "opinion" is also transmitted ELECTRONICALLY via the internet.

Any questions?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinec_mathimatics
kaok
Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 59
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1664264 - 06/26/03 11:16 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Ready?

Put all that which you think you know and all that which you know aside for just one moment in order to possibly see something new without judging it. (Don't worry, you can pick right up with all your original ideas after.)

Relax.

Take 1/4 of mushrooms.  Peyote is 1derful. :smile:

Lay still on your bed.

Close your eyes.

Watch the pictures that appear, do not judge, just listen.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: c_mathimatics]
    #1664357 - 06/26/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You see... it's cryptic bullshit like this that I can't stand.

1. First of all, you assume (incorrectly) that I've never done what you've described above (I've taken more than a quarter ounce of dried p.c.... all I could do was lay there).

2. You're implying that entheogens encode some type of information (that either enlightens or "unlocks"), though the molecules themselves DO NOT code for anything (indicating that it's not the drug, but the brain).

3. Your use of the word "judge" as if it were a negative thing.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1664563 - 06/26/03 01:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

No not really any more questions. I have more ideas though. i see what your getting at. TO me i think this argument would be closer to dreamers vs realists. instead of "believers" vs "skeptics". although i think they are more closely related. or do you not think so?

because to me it seems that you and (im not trying to generalize or anything) Sclorch have a real cultivated scrutiny to your investigations. which is smart. but for me i dont have enough time or the dedication (right now) to go and try to figure out an explanation and support evidence for how i think telepathy might exist. or how i think it can relate to science. not that i cant relate it, or that i wont.

I think that in fact if it were possible it could be explained. or at least i think that the phenomena i have witnessed could be explained through a set of complex scientific explanations or understandings. but to get down to the facts would be to change my perception, and might impair my openess to such events... or hender me from finding the answers to such a problem.

i think we could all use a little bit more of eachother. but we dont all have the same experiences, the same cultivated ability to understand what we experience. but because we experience things that may seem un real doesnt neccessitat the fact that those events dont exist. it just means that we simply dont have the means to explain or to understand that which we dont. But to try and udnerstand what we dont is our ulitmate goal. and i think it would be much easier if we could communicate better, showing to one another how such and such works. instead of argueing why eachother is right or wrong. Points will never be cleared unless we can stop for a moment. But now that swami has cleared it up i see what sclorch was getting at. there has been no concrete evidence. only the retort of experiences and justifications for the understandings of those experiences.

to me the ultimate problem here, is the lack of communication and understanding on the "opposing" "sides". sometimes i think we tend to get too wrapped up in our own ideas, and that we forget to see that we are all human, and we all share simmilarly the same characteristics, abilities, problems, desires, etc.


--------------------
What?

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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1664596 - 06/26/03 01:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Side A believes in the scientific method and that electron theory is basically correct. This "opinion" is transmitted electronically to others on the shroomery.

Side B believes that science is screwed up and that telepathy exists. This "opinion" is also transmitted ELECTRONICALLY via the internet.






flase dilemma. just because you hold an uncommon opinion doesn't mean you don't follow the scientific method.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Malachi]
    #1664623 - 06/26/03 01:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Insert "some" in the side B part. The fact remains that those who believe in telepathy are not transmitting their message telepathically while those who believe in science are using that science to transmit their message.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1664718 - 06/26/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

We live in a positivist world. When the aquarian age dawns and mass paradigm shifts render in a new age of irrationality, the daily news will be broadcast via telepaths. [/sarcasm]

Perhaps the reality is that science works best for some stuff, and suspended ego-judgement (following the maxim that sufficiently advanced, or insufficiently understood, knowledge/technology is comparable to magic to its observers and practitioners) is better for other stuff.

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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Swami]
    #1664826 - 06/26/03 02:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

in conjunction with the claimant.




How do you know that the claimant isn't lieing? Whats evidence?, it all has the potential to be false, the only true evidence is something like telekinesis performed RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, or a goverment document signed and sealed (even that could be false). THERE IS NO EVIDENCE, to make one BELIEVE, however there are psi/psychic studys in which would consitute as evidence!


I said it before and ill say it agian. So there no such thing as telepathy, kinesis, future telling, or any of that, its the dellusions of millions. right?


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1669781 - 06/28/03 03:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

J5: I said it before and ill say it agian. So there no such thing as telepathy, kinesis, future telling, or any of that, its the dellusions of millions. right?

This is what we call common practice pseudoreasoning.

Ten million French people CAN be wrong.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1669825 - 06/28/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You can call it what you will, but no label negates the justness of any particular phenomena.

Anything being reported by millions of people should be seriously researched, not laughed at, suppressed, and pushed away.






The transformation starts from within.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Shroomism]
    #1670105 - 06/28/03 07:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You can call it what you will, but no label negates the justness of any particular phenomena.

Justness? Do you mean validity?

Anything being reported by millions of people should be seriously researched, not laughed at, suppressed, and pushed away.

And this is exactly why psychiatrists the world over study and come up with treatments for schizophrenia like they do.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1670231 - 06/28/03 08:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

If you're being sarcastic, forgive my reading you straight.

You'd seriously prefer to attribute metaphysical, transpersonal and parapsychological phenomena to the hallucinations and delusions of the mentally ill than acknowledge that perhaps there is something here that science should approach?

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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1670269 - 06/28/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I AM GOD.





that is all :P

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Shroomism]
    #1670557 - 06/28/03 11:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Are you implying that it was never seriously researched before it was laughed at, repressed, and pushed away?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1670614 - 06/29/03 12:18 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You'd seriously prefer to attribute metaphysical, transpersonal and parapsychological phenomena to the hallucinations and delusions of the mentally ill than acknowledge that perhaps there is something here that science should approach?

The title of this thread is "Show Me" Time!! Yay!, is it not?

Unless you have REAL evidence for -{whatever}-, take your weak rhetoric elsewhere.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1672103 - 06/29/03 07:22 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unless you have REAL evidence for -{whatever}-,




Whats your opinon of evidence?

Quote:

take your weak rhetoric elsewhere




A little harsh!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1672124 - 06/29/03 07:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The title schmitle. You dismiss the experience of millions with a sweeping generalization. If you don't share their experience, fine - but don't assume that they are inferior because you are not familiar with what they are talking about.

I can't show you because if you don't notice these types of phenomena you're not going to be swayed by a description of my subjective experience. But you're not going to convince me that positivism holds all the answers unless you can show me how positivism explains the phenomena that I've experienced.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1672345 - 06/29/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

First of all, who said ANYTHING about positivism?
I'm not fond of positivism either (I dislike the dualism of a priori/a posteriori).

You dismiss the experience of millions with a sweeping generalization.
No... these "millions" have not been able to garner a micron of hard evidence. They've dismissed themselves. And I am DAMN tired of having to inform people when they're using pseudoreasoning (hint hint).

but don't assume that they are inferior because you are not familiar with what they are talking about
I said nothing of inferiority. I'm rather adverse to hierarchies in general. The only thing I would call inferior is the "compelling evidence" many around here rave about.

I can't show you because if you don't notice these types of phenomena
No... I'm extremely observant. I don't think that is the issue here.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1672933 - 06/30/03 02:14 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The hint hint's a low ball.

OK, positivism was an assumption. I'm sure you've noticed the online assumption of character which later surprises you when the person is different from your imagined projection. In this case, the initial impression I got from your posts was that you are very concrete and down to earth, and possess an apparent immediate reaction to the "far out" or to subjects generally loved by the new agers. Thus, my labelling you as positivist. While the unquestioning attitude of much of the new age towards the freak show side of life seems to me to be too far on the other side of rationality, I still find it hard to dismiss some of the things that they are talking about, and actually am fascinated by the field of modern & ancient esoteric knowledge. Don't get me wrong in that of course too I find science deeply fascinating; but I also notice a dogma throughout science that the implicit ground-rules are correct and that empiricism etc is a valid way to proceed and build frameworks on top of. This dogma is of course particularly strong in its rejection of the field of esoterics, given the history of the various movements involved (scienctific method developing as antithesis to irrationality) -- and I believe this to be deeply unfortunate.

I'm not questioning your observation skills -- you're obviously perceptive. All I'm saying is that the "inner disciplines" from the limited few that I know about require work to obtain results. For example, I've done enough yoga to know that the chakras are something that I can reliably observe and to some extent predict, and I've received external corroboration of my internal experience in terms of body energy. You wouldn't buy it so it's neither here nor there whether I detail it. But nothing I have read from a mainstream approach to science approaches the chakras with anything but upfront skepticism. I can't tell you whether working on body energy is something that will make any difference to your satisfaction with or understanding of life, or not; all I can tell you is that it is real.

On that basis, while I make no claims for psychokinesis or telepathy, I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on the basis that they are lumped together by skepticism with body energy, which, as above, is as real to me as the keyboard I'm typing on. Do I think science should have a change of heart and adopt everything willy-nilly? No. But I do think it should be less inclusive in its rejection of esoteric knowledge, and that when somebody mentions these subjects the initial reaction shouldn't be a 60 foot high concrete block wall with embedded glass shards on top.

You, or perhaps Swami, mention the fact that nobody has yet claimed the "psychic prize" of a million bucks as evidence that this stuff doesn't exist. My answer to that is that most people who join serious spiritual (for want of a less reactionary word) discliplines are required to pledge secrecy before real initiation. I don't know how much you know about esoteric societies, and I don't know how common they are, but every one I've ever read about, or every one from which I've met people from, was this way. They say, time and time again, that they don't want to reveal their "secrets" to the general public. But again you're already thinking about rebuttal, I bet, and will attribute it to romantic hearsay, insiderdom or cultdom. You could be right, but why in that case wouldn't there be so many exposes as to level the field? Why would gurus and swamis persist? (Different question from why would religions continue to exist, in that they cater to a different audience. The serious seeker is going to feel deeply betrayed if after their long term search and study they are initiated into squat.)

Edited by somebodyelse (06/30/03 02:21 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: "Show Me" Time!! Yay! [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1673574 - 06/30/03 08:57 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

So... you're against the freedom of information?

I AM open to all esoterica... but all I ever hear is TALK.
All bark and no bite means little to me in the realm of esoterica.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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