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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Is there such a thing as a soul?
    #1658131 - 06/24/03 11:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I was going to summarize this post in my own words but it was clumsy and did not do justice to what J. Krishnamurti was trying to say so I typed this up in full instead. Enjoy!

To understand this question of death, we must be rid of fear, which invents the various theories of afterlife or immortality or reincarnation. Thos is the East say that there is reincarnation, there is a rebirth, a constant renewal going on and on - the soul, so the so-called soul. Now please listen carefully.

Is there such a thing? We like to think there is such a thing, because it gives us pleasure, because that is something that we have set beyond thought, beyond words; it is something eternal, spiritual, that can never die, and so thought clings to it. But is there such a thing as a soul, which is something beyond time, something beyond thought, something that is not invented by man, something that is beyond the nature of man, something that is not put together by the cunning mind? Because the mind sees such enourmous uncertainty, confusion, nothing is permanent in life - nothing. Your relationship to your wife, your husband, your job - nothing is permanent. And so the mind invents a something which is permanent, which it calls the soul. But since the mind can think about it, it is still within the field of time - naturally. If I can think about something, it is part of my thought. And my thought is the result of time, of experience, of knowledge. So, the soul is still within the field of time...

So the idea of a continuatity of a soul that will be reborn over and over and over again has no meaning because it is the invention of a mind that is frightened, of a mind that wants, that seeks a duration through permanency, that wants certainty, because in that there is hope.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1658158 - 06/24/03 11:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So the idea of a continuatity of a soul that will be reborn over and over and over again has no meaning because it is the invention of a mind that is frightened, of a mind that wants, that seeks a duration through permanency, that wants certainty, because in that there is hope.

Fear of the unknown/being alone.

It's as simple as that. :wink:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658164 - 06/24/03 11:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Do You Realize? by the Flaming Lips

Do You Realize - that you have the most beautiful face
Do You Realize - we're floating in space -
Do You Realize - that happiness makes you cry
Do You Realize - that everyone you know someday will die

And instead of saying all of your goodbyes - let them know
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning round

Do You Realize - Oh - Oh - Oh
Do You Realize - that everyone you know
Someday will die -

And instead of saying all of your goodbyes - let them know
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning round

Do You Realize - that you have the most beautiful face
Do You Realize


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658172 - 06/24/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Do You Realize - that everyone you know someday will die

Some people have a hard time accepting this and see the soul as a means of reuniting with your loved ones in an afterlife. Yet another way to attain permanent relationship with people because they are afraid to be alone. Great song



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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1658175 - 06/24/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Fear of being alone.

A blow-up doll helps more than any mental construct...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCockyMandrill
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Swami]
    #1658190 - 06/24/03 12:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I used to not beleive in the the soul, but after many psychedelics and out of body experiences I couldn't fight the fact that my conciousness could be seperate from my physical brain/body. Why did I know this was a fact? Well, after going out of my body on high doses of mushrooms/DMT, I would feel completely sober, thinking quite straight, while in completely alien worlds. I knew I couldnt possibly be thinking normally if I was still using my brain which had peaking levels of pschedlics in it, so I concluded that My mind is actually seperate from my brain. The brain seems just to be the proccessing unit, much like a computer, and is controlled by the soul.


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Offlinenubious
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Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: CockyMandrill]
    #1658279 - 06/24/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If only I could find DMT... *sigh*


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineJackal
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1658306 - 06/24/03 01:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have a story which I think is valid here.

My mate Peterson once bought a pair of shoes with artificial intelligence.  Smart Shoes, they were called. It was a neat idea. No matter how blind drunk you were, they would always get you home.

Then he got ratted one night in Oslo and woke up the next morning in Burma.  See, the shoes got bored just going from his local to the flat.  They wanted to see the world.

He had a helluva job getting rid of them. No matter who he sold them to, they'd show up again the next day. He tried to shut them out, but they just kicked the door down.

Last thing he heard, they'd sort of robbed a car and drove it into a canal.  They couldn't steer, y'see.

Peterson was really, really blown away by it. He went to see a priest.  The priest told him, it was all right, and all that, and that the shoes were happy, and that they'd gone to heaven. Y'see, it turns out shoes have soles.

:cool:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: nubious]
    #1658310 - 06/24/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quit yer whining. Buy some mimosa hostilis and and do an extraction. Spark a bowl and then report back to us on the nature of the soul. You have one month to complete your assignment. In lieu of an extraction, do some ayahuasca - same thing (almost) but longer lasting.

Had an ayahuasca vision of my girlfriend who was far away. It was the most beautiful thing that I had ever witnessed. She was all white and it seemed like I was seeing her true essence (whatever that is!) I knew after that, that whenever I saw her in real life as sick, angry, sad or in any way unattractive, that I could recall this vision and see through the surface to her true magnificence.

Oh shit! Swami's cover as a hardcore skeptic is forever blown!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Swami]
    #1658362 - 06/24/03 01:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Oh shit! Swami's cover as a hardcore skeptic is forever blown!




Oh no! :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :grin:


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Swami]
    #1658391 - 06/24/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I knew after that, that whenever I saw her in real life as sick, angry, sad or in any way unattractive, that I could recall this vision and see through the surface to her true magnificence.




I had a significant experience like this on mushrooms. I was floating along in hyperspace, contemplating deep and important cosmic things, and suddenly I saw a vision of a beautiful eye that looked at me, and it was my absent girlfriend's eye, and it just radiated pure unconditional love back to me. After that, everytime I look her in the eye, whether she is happy, angry, tired or sick, I remember that vision.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1658425 - 06/24/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cool!

The downside to my vision is that we are no longer together, yet I have great difficulty in letting go and moving on because of this experience. Some might say that I should be able to see this gloriousness in everyone, yet the emotions and significant imprinting of the vision are attached to one specific person.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: CockyMandrill]
    #1658434 - 06/24/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I used to not beleive in the the soul, but after many psychedelics and out of body experiences I couldn't fight the fact that my conciousness could be seperate from my physical brain/body.




I agree, I don't think consciousness is required to stay within the human skull. It's just a popular place that consciousness likes to visit. But when you realize that consciousness goes deeper than your own fragile and temporary brain, it's a mistake to think that "you" own this consciousness in some way. That kind of thinking is just the ego part of the mortal soul/brain trying desperately to convince itself that there is a way to cheat (ego) death.


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Offlinebluesky
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1658455 - 06/24/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that every conscious being has a soul, because I believe that pure consciousness is the soul. As cockymandrell said :"The brain seems just to be the proccessing unit, much like a computer, and is controlled by the soul." Without electricity, the computer is dead. If you are without a soul, you're dead too. I don't see how people can ignore this, people wonder where is the soul? What is the soul? It very well could be right under your nose. Just the simple fact that you are questioning this could very well be proof of your question.


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: bluesky]
    #1658644 - 06/24/03 03:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Can you please re-read my original post and reply specifically to the part where the human mind which is bound by time, that is thought, experience, memories, knowledge, etc. could ever possibly contemplate a soul, which is the divine, the timeless, the eternal. Out of body experiences do not prove there is a soul, as the person above mentioned he was thinking and behaving normal whilst travelling places. How can people invent a soul, and then say their soul will go to heaven for eternity. You cannot understand the eternal through thought.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1658781 - 06/24/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

chodamunky said:
Can you please re-read my original post and reply specifically to the part where the human mind which is bound by time, that is thought, experience, memories, knowledge, etc. could ever possibly contemplate a soul, which is the divine, the timeless, the eternal. Out of body experiences do not prove there is a soul, as the person above mentioned he was thinking and behaving normal whilst travelling places. How can people invent a soul, and then say their soul will go to heaven for eternity. You cannot understand the eternal through thought.




Nor experience then, correct? Because experience is a product of sensations delivered by the body.


Ultimately, the existance of a soul is just theory.


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OfflineCockyMandrill
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1658805 - 06/24/03 05:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I do not call it a soul, I just Know that I have an energy body, that under certain circumstances, has existed seperately from my real body, and therefore I believe that it will survive physical death.

Why can people comtemplate a soul? Maybe its because that its not just our brain that is thinking all of the time, we may think using our energy body, which makes more sense to me if teh brain really does work just like a computer and process and collect our thoughts.



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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: Swami]
    #1658875 - 06/24/03 05:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Cool!

The downside to my vision is that we are no longer together, yet I have great difficulty in letting go and moving on because of this experience. Some might say that I should be able to see this gloriousness in everyone, yet the emotions and significant imprinting of the vision are attached to one specific person.




yeah, during my 'intense' tripping phase I was given a tour of the neitherworld by none other than my recently X-ified girlfriend. so... I'm wrapped up in blissful communion with my anima personified, only to keep remembering that she's not with me. it kinda sucked.

when I asked her about it (not the real her, but my tour guide/ anima) she explained that I was just using my feelings for this mundane person as a stepping stone into the non-mundane (divine?). Like the leonard cohen quote about everything being cracked so the light can get in.

anyway, the point of this post was to commiserate with swami.... as for the soul, are we talking individual or monistic?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Is there such a thing as a soul? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1659036 - 06/24/03 06:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That was a good read... Thanks for typing it up!

It pretty much says what I feel as well.


--------------------
Namaste.


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