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Eightball
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building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter
#1650911 - 06/21/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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heres my frame so far. i have also constructed a 27,000 V powersupply out of an old 17" monitor to power the lifter. ill have more pics soon.
more information about lifters can be found here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Anonymous
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1650915 - 06/21/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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whats a lifter
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1651563 - 06/21/03 04:40 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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got the foil capacitors glued on. (lifter is upside down in photo) need to add a corona wire still and should be ready to fly
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Anno
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: ]
#1651650 - 06/21/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1651864 - 06/21/03 06:47 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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corona wire added. 30 guage, silver coated copper.
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1652171 - 06/21/03 09:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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preflight
\ houston we have a problem
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator
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Posts: 5,248
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter *DELETED* [Re: Eightball]
#1654124 - 06/22/03 05:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1654204 - 06/22/03 06:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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added foil to center triangle and corona wire. still wont lift but moves around the table a bit and makes noise. room stinks like ozone too.
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Anno
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: poke smot!]
#1655115 - 06/23/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Read the links above.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1658693 - 06/24/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Have you looked at the waveform from your powersupply? You may have the correct peak voltage, but if the waveform is sloppy then the actual power will be greatly reduced.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zeta
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1660789 - 06/25/03 06:41 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wow, that looks damn cool. Can you tell us a bit more about the power supply?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: zeta]
#1661902 - 06/25/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Basically a 555 timer to create a square wave hooked into a flyback transformer from a computer monitor to pump up the voltage. The link he gave has a section on the powersupplies they use.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: Seuss]
#1663957 - 06/26/03 07:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Anonymous
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: ]
#1665415 - 06/26/03 06:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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LOL, that is a funny story
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zeta
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1666508 - 06/27/03 02:29 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was wanting Eightball to tell us a bit more about the specirfic powersupply he's using. Are you using the one where you just drill a few holes in the monitor and attach cables to the wire with the boot and the braided one?
I've got a flyback that looks much like this How much trouble do you think it would be to use it in a HV power supply? I'm a little deterred by all those inputs.
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Xibalba
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: zeta]
#1700429 - 07/09/03 05:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:44 AM)
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Xibalba]
#1700518 - 07/09/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah man, im sure the first internal combustion engine could move a car. lol. you obviously dont understand the reprocussions of this newly found way to produce a force or physics at all for that matter.
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Xibalba
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#1701700 - 07/10/03 02:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 12:45 AM)
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matts
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: matts]
#1705225 - 07/11/03 07:17 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am certain this is how they built the pyramids. This device, and alien power crystals.
Yep... once we figure out how to create element 115 we too will be able to build pyramids.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#1705345 - 07/11/03 08:58 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yep... once we figure out how to create element 115 we too will be able to build pyramids.
I'd be glad to sell you some. Just send either US Bearer Bonds or Cash (100.00's will do) in the amount of 15 million dollars and I'll ship it within 48 hours or receipt of payment. Yeah.... 48 hours.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Edame
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1706132 - 07/11/03 01:58 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wired have a good article on these over here. Apparently NASA have a patent on this now, and are looking into using it as a propulsion system. Unfortunately, so far it doesn't look like these will work in space. This whole concept kind of reminds me of the hovercrafts in the Matrix films, I wonder if that's what they're supposed to be using?
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
Edited by Edame (07/11/03 01:59 PM)
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Edame]
#1707004 - 07/11/03 07:48 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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yup, i read some slashdot'd article on lifters the other day. aparently they dont work in a complete vacuum =( still potential like the matrix hover craft idea.
as for my experiments, i believe my power supply may be to blame for the lack of lifting. it started resetting itself a lot in the last attempt. gotta rip out the transformer and tweak it.
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Ego Death
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#4863070 - 10/28/05 10:31 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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What controls how much the device can lift?
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Ego Death]
#4863178 - 10/28/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the lifting force is proportional to the voltage applied to the device.
I haven't checked any of the links, but from what I understand these type of "lifters" use an ionic wind to create the lifting effect.
Basically you have a thin wire on top of the device which you charge up to many thousands of volts. This ionizes the air surrounding the wire, making it electrically conductive. On the lower half of the device you have a plate (tin foil) usually held at ground potential. The ionized air is accelerated towards this plate due to the voltage potential - the higher your voltage is the stronger this acceleration will be. The ionized air loses its charge (or most of it? hopefully all of it) as it passes this plate.
It is this movement of air from the corona wire to the plate that causes the lifting effect.
This is essentially a VERY scaled-down and low-tech version of a ion drive (like the one used on that comet probe). In those an inert gas (like xenon) is ionized and accelerated towards the back of the engine where it exits and produces thrust.
The thrust produced in this manner is very small - less than the acceleration you put on yourself each time you take a step. However it is very efficient and can hold up acceleration for MUCH longer periods of time than most (any?) other engines we have.
The part about charged capacitors weighing less is still being investigated, from what I hear. It is not yet understood.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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ThePredator
Your a eunich ifyou don't useunix!
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4864740 - 10/28/05 07:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that the theory is flawed. Their seems to be no link between electrons and gravity because gravity is exerted from the nucleus.
Trendal is correct or it uses magnetism which would mean it would only work in the upper hemispheres or it would only work in the lower.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: ThePredator]
#4873975 - 10/31/05 05:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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> gravity is exerted from the nucleus
Really? Our understanding of physics must have changed since I was in school...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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TheCow
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4875530 - 10/31/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: I think the lifting force is proportional to the voltage applied to the device.
I haven't checked any of the links, but from what I understand these type of "lifters" use an ionic wind to create the lifting effect.
Basically you have a thin wire on top of the device which you charge up to many thousands of volts.
Can you explain this more? What do you mean charge a wire up to many thousands of volts. There is no voltage drop on the wire, so one cannot really charge up a wire to many thousands of volts. And where does the capacitor come into play? The only thing I can come up with, however Im highly intoxicated, is that the high voltage sets up a strong magnetic field, which induces currents in the foil. As it doesnt seem like the copper wire is attached to the foil at all. Id then assume that the strong magnetic field, on one side interacts with the ground side producing some manner of movement,
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ThePredator
Your a eunich ifyou don't useunix!
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: TheCow]
#4875535 - 10/31/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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The wire positivly charges the air around it and the negativly charged platform is pulled up to it.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: TheCow]
#4875913 - 10/31/05 04:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you attatch a wire to the + pole of a 25kV power supply, that wire is "charged" to 25kV - each point on the wire is at 25kV potential. The wire is just an extention of the + pole.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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TheCow
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4877942 - 10/31/05 11:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well I understand what you mean, just the way you phrased it was confusing. As voltage is usually referred to as the potential difference between two points. If you integrate the electric field dot dl, over a to b, this will give you the potential difference which would be zero.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: TheCow]
#4878635 - 11/01/05 06:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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To be "charged" means to have an electrical potential - which is the same thing as voltage. In particular, "charged" refers to a physical state in which an object either has a deficit or excess of electrons in its structure - creating an electric potential between the object and its surroundings.
Normally air at surface pressure is not conductive. At a high enough voltage any insulator will break down and begin to conduct (poorly) - air is the same. That's what causes sparks, the voltage (charge) in one object is high enough to break down the resistance of the surrounding air.
This happens due to ionization. The electric field in the object is so great that it can either give extra electrons to the surounding gas atoms or take some away. Either case results in charged ions of gas. The wire gives some of its charge to the air. Ions can carry a current, so a spike of ions forms moving towards a neutral object which is nearby. Once it connects you get a "spark". Same thing with lightning.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
Edited by trendal (11/01/05 09:02 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4878799 - 11/01/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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> At a high enough voltage any conductor will break down
Correction: At a high enough voltage any non-conductor will break down
(I assume this is what you meant...)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#4878825 - 11/01/05 09:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I meant to say "insulator". Thanks seuss
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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TheCow
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4884284 - 11/02/05 03:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I am saying, is that voltage is a potential difference. Sure every dl, is at a certain potential on that wire, but this is different then voltage.
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trendal
J♠
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#4965717 - 11/21/05 08:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've decided to give this a try myself. I've just constructed a simple lifter device:
How much did your device weigh? Mine is 4g total (including HV and ground wires).
How did you set up your power supply? I'm also going to use a flyback from an old monitor - I was just going to drive it with a DC supply and 555 timer...how did yours work?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Alford
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4966035 - 11/21/05 09:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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That is so cool
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yousuck
Stranger
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Alford]
#4968081 - 11/22/05 12:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh i get it! everyone who doesnt understand what it is he's making:
see, it will work, you just got to add some wisdom and courage in addition to your power supply.
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trendal
J♠
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4968327 - 11/22/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Got most of the power supply set up today. Now all I need is a flyback and I'll be ready to give this a try.
*hunts around the neighborhood for a dead tv*
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Gomp
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#4971765 - 11/23/05 07:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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holy fuck!
Now I really think I can levitate...
see... we are already there... two surfaces never ever touches..
go figure? :P
-------------------- -------------------- Disclaimer!?
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Legoulash
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Gomp]
#4974279 - 11/23/05 09:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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what all this phisics talk.. All i wanna know is when i can have one onn my skate board.?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Legoulash]
#4982763 - 11/26/05 10:51 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think they would work self-contained, yet.
They reqire a lot of power for very little lift.
It would be great if this was anti-grav in the making, though.
Trendal, I see NASA has boldly stated 'we know what this is, its ion wind'.
Would you be able to prove / disprove what is causing the effect?
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Ego Death]
#4982905 - 11/26/05 11:40 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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is this for real? That is so cool...
if I had the time or ambition to undertake such a project, I would... but I'm already doing battle with failed reishi grow and I know nothing about electronics..
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trendal
J♠
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Posts: 20,815
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Ego Death]
#4982948 - 11/26/05 11:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll have to wait until I get mine working, but I saw a video of one where a smoke device was placed over a working lifter. The smoke was very clearly accelerated downwards as if blown down by a wind. I'll see if I can do the same thing and make a video of it.
Now I've also seen experiments of stationary capacitors charged up to very high voltage, in which their weight was taken and shown to decrease with charge. The decrease was on the order of micrograms, I think, and they were using voltages well over 100kV. So there may very well be an "anti-gravity" effect with HV caps, but I think it is probably far too small to lift anything with today's technology (or anything you could build in your home). Lifters are far too big to rely on such a small effect.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4982961 - 11/26/05 12:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I also want to see what effect it would have to try and concentrate the ion flow. Have the outside strip be non-conductive (plastic tape) instead of tinfoil, and have a smaller tinfoil triangle inside the tape one.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4988988 - 11/28/05 08:12 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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The world of high-voltage / high-frequencey is a playground of strange happenings. There is a lot left to discover.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#4989247 - 11/28/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I've managed to hack together most of the power supply, but I'm still missing the flyback transformer and have no broken TVs to remove one from
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4989349 - 11/28/05 11:35 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just tossed a bunch of 'em in the trash a few weeks ago because I had to move. Lemme see if I have any more laying around. They are expensive to buy... in the $90 plus range, at least down here.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#4989424 - 11/28/05 12:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah I looked to buy a new one and they are about the same price here
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#4999688 - 11/30/05 05:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Finally got a working flyback from an old monitor, and have just finished the power supply:
I'm a little tired and quite stoned right now, neither of which makes a good combination with high-voltage (in my personal experience) so I'm going to put off testing the supply until tomorrow or Friday. I'll hopefully be able to give my lifter its first test flight by this weekend
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Cosm
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5001291 - 12/01/05 02:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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i dont think ioninc winds will be enough to lift anything heavy,however if you use magnitics in conjunction with, you might be able to get better force from this device.just a thought
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Cosm]
#5001646 - 12/01/05 08:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Heavy? It weighs 4 grams
How would magnetics cause the craft to lift?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5001683 - 12/01/05 09:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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> How would magnetics cause the craft to lift?
Magnets work by releasing sub-atomic particles called magnetrons. Magnetrons reflect ionic wind, thus causing lift, at least north of the equater. You will obviously need to add some polyconic magnetic shields to the parabolic diploid of the magnet or highly toxic z-rays will be released.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#5001689 - 12/01/05 09:15 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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/me melts into a puddle of simple hydrocarbons from the highly energetic z-rays
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5003414 - 12/01/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just gave it my first attempt - nothing happened.
Of course, nothing exploded or caught on fire, either...so that's good
At this point I can't be sure if I'm even getting the 30kV needed, as I don't have a high-voltage probe to test it with.
Any ideas?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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TheCow
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5005511 - 12/02/05 02:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Just gave it my first attempt - nothing happened.
Of course, nothing exploded or caught on fire, either...so that's good
At this point I can't be sure if I'm even getting the 30kV needed, as I don't have a high-voltage probe to test it with.
Any ideas?
Hook it up to a breadboard and LED, if the LED turns on, your cooking with at least 3 volts.
Get a few resistors of like a gigaohm, and some fairly normal sized resistors, and just create a voltage divider. Measure the voltage drop across a test resistor you have, and you can tell what the initial voltage was. Of course,that might not be feasible.
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FlusH
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#5006729 - 12/02/05 01:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wonder if there is a way to focus the energy from the HV(high voltage) device to any specific object without using a wire or cable as a conductor,
like if a magnetic field could be arranged in between the HV device output and the target and act as an insulator so the voltage would not just jump everywhere in the room. This way you could remotely control your electrokinetic device and freak out the neighbors!
hmmm, Maybe I should smoke a bowl and do some reading...
Edited by FlusH (12/02/05 02:08 PM)
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TheCow
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: FlusH]
#5006959 - 12/02/05 02:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yea you could do that, just make a huge Tesla Coil, which would induce a voltage in the other transformer to step it up to 30kV. Of course you might have currents running through your teeth if you had cavities, or random metal objects throughout your house.
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Cosm
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5008563 - 12/02/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Heavy? It weighs 4 grams
How would magnetics cause the craft to lift?
we want to build flying craft that will transport people right,that would be heavy. magnetic fields could be used to inhance the thrust of the ionic wind/force. would using magnetic fields create a greater force? i know that magnetic fields will direct the ionic discharge like it does in a picture tube in a tv.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5009780 - 12/03/05 09:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've traced the problem to my power supply - it's just not putting out any HV at all (only a couple of volts DC plus some ripple).
I took this pic of my scope, the bottom square wave is the drive signal on the base of the transistor, the top is the signal from the HV output on the transformer. The scale is at 5v/div and 10us/div in time. The HV signal ripples around 2 volts.
And another shot, with the top line being the signal on the primary of the transformer. The signal in this pic is around 12v.
Now I've got my 555 set to about 27kHz...but the transformer seems to be resonating at around 200kHz.
Is that normal for a flyback of this type?
Would I get more HV if I set the timer to run at 200kHz as well?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5009805 - 12/03/05 10:08 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh and if anyone is wondering, no I still don't have a HV probe...
I set up a measured spark-gap to try and guage how much voltage I was getting from the transformer - should have produced good 1cm sparks at 30kV. It didn't produce ANY sparks at all, so I knew I had a problem
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5010202 - 12/03/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tried changing the timer to 200kHz but it had little to no effect (still only 1-2 volts out on the HV).
Then I realized a small capacitor I had in the circuit was inverting the waveform on the base of the transistor. Removed the cap entirely and I get a good 60v DC on the HV now (plus the transistor runs HOT, before it wasn't even getting warm).
Looking at the signal on the primary now leads me to believe the 27kHz I had originally used was the right one - at 200kHz the voltage is still rising across the primary when the drive voltage goes low, so I'm getting a sawtooth wave instead of something more sinusoidal.
I'll try switching it back to 27kHz later on and see how that works now that I have that cap removed.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5010729 - 12/03/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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SUCCESS!!!!
Well, at least on getting some HV
I can draw about 1 inch long plasma streamers, of which I'll post pics shortly.
I'll get the lifter set up later and test it out again.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5010762 - 12/03/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
A video of a good arc is attached. The pic doesn't do justice, especially on a digital camera.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5011075 - 12/03/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hot : )
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5011132 - 12/03/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I tried out two separate lifters, one about 4g and one about 2g in weight.
Neither showed any signs of movement.
I tried setting the smaller one on my pocket scale to take weight measurements while the HV was on...and instead of losing weight it actually went up about 1/4 of a gram. That may be due to RF interference, as it is a digital scale, but I would expect to see more erratic behavior if it was interference. The weight would go up from 2.22g to 2.56g over a span of 5 seconds after applying voltage, and then drop back down to 2.22 within 5 seconds of turning off the power. The weight change was consistent across 5 attempts.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5013518 - 12/04/05 11:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I tried boosting the supply voltage on the primary to 24 volts...but apparently the transistor I was using couldn't handle the extra voltage because it only lasted about a second
Each time the transformer flies back I get a voltage spike across the primary that is well over 600v, even when using just 12v supply. I expect these spikes reached well over 1000v when I changed over to 24v supply, and the transisor just couldn't handle that much.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5016845 - 12/05/05 08:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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> Now I've got my 555 set to about 27kHz...
Sounds too fast... drop back down to around 15kHz and see what happens... Most flybacks seem to like somewhere between 8kHz and 20kHz.
Remember, for high voltage, the system will be drawing a lot of current... between two and five amps... your components have to be able to handle these large currents or the magic smoke will escape.
Can you post a picture of the schematic for your supply? Where is diploid? He is (almost) infintely better at this stuff than I am.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#5017235 - 12/05/05 10:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I tried dropping the frequency but I stop getting ANY HV at all if I go below about 25kHz or above 30kHz.
I installed a trimmer in place of the resistor I had on the 555 so that I can change the frequency while the whole thing is running. I did so while watching the intensity of the arc it produced, and 27kHz certainly seems to produce the best arc.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5017483 - 12/05/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I used this basic design, only making a couple of modifications: http://tacashi.tripod.com/elctrncs/555sstc/555sstc.gif
Here's mine:
The only thing I changed was to add the trimmer instead of the 2.2K resistor, as well as a 2680uF/250v capacitor bank to help reduce RF feedback into my +12v supply.
I expect that my supply voltage of 12v is just too low to get the 30kV I need. Other than that the circuit seems to work perfectly.
Had some fun yesterday with a small xenon flash tube:
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5017671 - 12/05/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Check out: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html
Make sure you flyback is good. What are you using for Q1? The only thing I probably would have changed is putting a diode and resistor across the primary.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#5017722 - 12/05/05 12:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
I'm using a KSE13007 NPN power transistor, rated at 80W. No specific reason why I'm using this one, except that I had a few of them laying around.
Attached is the spec datasheet for Q1.
What value resistor would you place in line with the primary?
Oh and I'm quite positive that my flyback is working fine, as it came out of a monitor that was working fine before I scrapped it.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
Edited by trendal (12/05/05 12:50 PM)
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5017848 - 12/05/05 01:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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> What value resistor would you place in line with the primary?
...something like a 5W/120 ohm, with a diode such as an UF4008. Probably not needed. Where is diploid?
> Oh and I'm quite positive that my flyback is working fine
Yeah, I wrote that before I saw that you had something working.
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Diploid
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5027609 - 12/07/05 09:10 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool project!
I expect that my supply voltage of 12v is just too low to get the 30kV I need. Other than that the circuit seems to work perfectly.
Just a guess: when Q1 abruptly shuts off, it might be seeing a voltage spike coming back off the flyback primary winding in excess of the transistor's breakdown voltage and dissipating some of the energy that should be driving the high-voltage side. Try changing Q1 to something with a higher Vceo.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Diploid]
#5027765 - 12/07/05 09:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
I've got the HOT out of the monitor that I got the flyback from, I'm pretty sure it's still OK and the Vceo is 700v. It's a Phillips BU2508DF. I'll have to give it a try on v2.0 of the power supply.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5027895 - 12/07/05 10:10 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Never underestimate the component saving power of a heatsink and a good fan.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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trendal
J♠
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#5027970 - 12/07/05 10:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Already have that:
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
#5028176 - 12/07/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not a bad looking box.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
#6251323 - 11/05/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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im glad my original post sparked such enthusiasm. i just wish ya'll had more success. my project was scrapped when i had to move a year ago and tossed any unnessesay shit (ie monitor with wires soldered into it) ive seen some really cool videos of 3 ft wide lifters producing tons of lift so the potential is out there. good luck
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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Seuss
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#6252403 - 11/06/06 03:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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> producing tons of lift
I would be very surprised to see a 3ft wide lifter producing 4000+ pounds of lift.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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tak
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#6351061 - 12/09/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Holy fuck back from the dead. It's been over a year! Where are you???
-------------------- The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Eightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: tak]
#6378002 - 12/16/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey tak, livin with my parents at the moment. sucks. i qualified to do special force qc (green barets) but decided i wanted to try to finish my degree first, but then i didnt get into the college. so ive wasted a year not including the 5 years of college...ah well..ill shoot you an im sometime when i see you online
to stay on topic.... mythbusters built a lifter on last weeks episode where they were testing antigravity devices. it didnt work in a vacuume (but then again they didnt retest the wire connections after they moved it into the vacuume chamber)
-------------------- If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away. But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels Freeing you from the earth.
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trendal
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
#6378742 - 12/17/06 07:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's what I thought....the lifter is working by ionic wind.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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