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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5009805 - 12/03/05 10:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh and if anyone is wondering, no I still don't have a HV probe...

I set up a measured spark-gap to try and guage how much voltage I was getting from the transformer - should have produced good 1cm sparks at 30kV. It didn't produce ANY sparks at all, so I knew I had a problem :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5010202 - 12/03/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Tried changing the timer to 200kHz but it had little to no effect (still only 1-2 volts out on the HV).

Then I realized a small capacitor I had in the circuit was inverting the waveform on the base of the transistor. Removed the cap entirely and I get a good 60v DC on the HV now (plus the transistor runs HOT, before it wasn't even getting warm).

Looking at the signal on the primary now leads me to believe the 27kHz I had originally used was the right one - at 200kHz the voltage is still rising across the primary when the drive voltage goes low, so I'm getting a sawtooth wave instead of something more sinusoidal.

I'll try switching it back to 27kHz later on and see how that works now that I have that cap removed.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5010729 - 12/03/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

SUCCESS!!!! :smile:

Well, at least on getting some HV :smirk:

I can draw about 1 inch long plasma streamers, of which I'll post pics shortly.

I'll get the lifter set up later and test it out again.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5010762 - 12/03/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)
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A video of a good arc is attached. The pic doesn't do justice, especially on a digital camera.



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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineChuangTzu Happy Birthday!
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5011075 - 12/03/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hot : )


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5011132 - 12/03/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I tried out two separate lifters, one about 4g and one about 2g in weight.

Neither showed any signs of movement.

I tried setting the smaller one on my pocket scale to take weight measurements while the HV was on...and instead of losing weight it actually went up about 1/4 of a gram. That may be due to RF interference, as it is a digital scale, but I would expect to see more erratic behavior if it was interference. The weight would go up from 2.22g to 2.56g over a span of 5 seconds after applying voltage, and then drop back down to 2.22 within 5 seconds of turning off the power. The weight change was consistent across 5 attempts.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5013518 - 12/04/05 11:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well I tried boosting the supply voltage on the primary to 24 volts...but apparently the transistor I was using couldn't handle the extra voltage because it only lasted about a second :smirk:

Each time the transformer flies back I get a voltage spike across the primary that is well over 600v, even when using just 12v supply. I expect these spikes reached well over 1000v when I changed over to 24v supply, and the transisor just couldn't handle that much.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5016845 - 12/05/05 08:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

> Now I've got my 555 set to about 27kHz...

Sounds too fast... drop back down to around 15kHz and see what happens... Most flybacks seem to like somewhere between 8kHz and 20kHz.

Remember, for high voltage, the system will be drawing a lot of current... between two and five amps... your components have to be able to handle these large currents or the magic smoke will escape.

Can you post a picture of the schematic for your supply? Where is diploid? He is (almost) infintely better at this stuff than I am.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
    #5017235 - 12/05/05 10:57 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I tried dropping the frequency but I stop getting ANY HV at all if I go below about 25kHz or above 30kHz.

I installed a trimmer in place of the resistor I had on the 555 so that I can change the frequency while the whole thing is running. I did so while watching the intensity of the arc it produced, and 27kHz certainly seems to produce the best arc.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5017483 - 12/05/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I used this basic design, only making a couple of modifications:
http://tacashi.tripod.com/elctrncs/555sstc/555sstc.gif

Here's mine:


The only thing I changed was to add the trimmer instead of the 2.2K resistor, as well as a 2680uF/250v capacitor bank to help reduce RF feedback into my +12v supply.

I expect that my supply voltage of 12v is just too low to get the 30kV I need. Other than that the circuit seems to work perfectly.


Had some fun yesterday with a small xenon flash tube:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5017671 - 12/05/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Check out: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_flytest.html

Make sure you flyback is good. What are you using for Q1? The only thing I probably would have changed is putting a diode and resistor across the primary.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
    #5017722 - 12/05/05 12:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)
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I'm using a KSE13007 NPN power transistor, rated at 80W. No specific reason why I'm using this one, except that I had a few of them laying around.

Attached is the spec datasheet for Q1.

What value resistor would you place in line with the primary?

Oh and I'm quite positive that my flyback is working fine, as it came out of a monitor that was working fine before I scrapped it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (12/05/05 12:50 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5017848 - 12/05/05 01:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

> What value resistor would you place in line with the primary?

...something like a 5W/120 ohm, with a diode such as an UF4008.  Probably not needed.  Where is diploid?  :grin:

> Oh and I'm quite positive that my flyback is working fine

Yeah, I wrote that before I saw that you had something working.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5027609 - 12/07/05 09:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Cool project!

I expect that my supply voltage of 12v is just too low to get the 30kV I need. Other than that the circuit seems to work perfectly.

Just a guess: when Q1 abruptly shuts off, it might be seeing a voltage spike coming back off the flyback primary winding in excess of the transistor's breakdown voltage and dissipating some of the energy that should be driving the high-voltage side. Try changing Q1 to something with a higher Vceo.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Diploid]
    #5027765 - 12/07/05 09:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)
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I've got the HOT out of the monitor that I got the flyback from, I'm pretty sure it's still OK and the Vceo is 700v. It's a Phillips BU2508DF. I'll have to give it a try on v2.0 of the power supply.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5027895 - 12/07/05 10:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Never underestimate the component saving power of a heatsink and a good fan.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
    #5027970 - 12/07/05 10:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Already have that:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: trendal]
    #5028176 - 12/07/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Not a bad looking box.  :smile:


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OfflineEightball
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Seuss]
    #6251323 - 11/05/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

im glad my original post sparked such enthusiasm. i just wish ya'll had more success. my project was scrapped when i had to move a year ago and tossed any unnessesay shit (ie monitor with wires soldered into it) ive seen some really cool videos of 3 ft wide lifters producing tons of lift so the potential is out there. good luck


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: building a electrokinetic device aka Lifter [Re: Eightball]
    #6252403 - 11/06/06 03:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

> producing tons of lift

I would be very surprised to see a 3ft wide lifter producing 4000+ pounds of lift.


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