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LiquidGlass
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Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
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Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest
#16499232 - 07/08/12 11:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hello, this is my first post. I have been using this site for years and until now I never really had a question that couldn't be answered by using the search. I found some post that touched on this subject but nothing that could answer my specific question.
When picking the first fruit of the first flush I gave it to my friend who immediately bit the cap off and i noticed the inside of the stem was a definite green/blue color. So when I picked the next few I cut them in the middle of the stem and they were also green/blue without any time to oxidized.
I know of course that mushrooms blue due to oxidation, but what has me curious is that the inside of the stem was already stained/oxidized before picking. And after observing them after normal oxidation time the green/blue had changed to a very dark navy blue, which tells me not everything was oxidized. So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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carnage11
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16499262 - 07/08/12 11:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not entirely positive, but I believe that the fruits can bruise due to a lack of moisture. Have you noticed the mycelium bruising? Or is it only the fruits. They might also be aborting, though this is less likely for mature fruits.
-------------------- You're breathing so I guess you're still alive Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16499271 - 07/08/12 11:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Note:
Other posters have been concerned that the green/blue was mold, but im experienced enough to recognize it as staining. I been doing popcorn for a bit now and this was my first run adding coffe grounds.
Could it be they're just so potent the mushroom just cant contain all the alkaloids and it just bursting out of it?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16499285 - 07/08/12 12:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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No the sub isn't bluing and they are some pretty healthy looking fruits, some really good size ones too.I suppose tho that the sub could prob be wetter
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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PandaRepublic
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16499293 - 07/08/12 12:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've noticed this happen too when my substrate is drying out. I'm curious as well as to the exact cause.
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LiquidGlass
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16499297 - 07/08/12 12:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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extra note: I always pick them shortly after the tearing of the veil before the caps spread out too much
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Fungal growth
Lootinint
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: carnage11]
#16499367 - 07/08/12 12:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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ive seen it happen, seems like some strains do some don't. what i found interesting was that those strains the lab rats have reported to be weaker turn blue much faster than those they reported to be stronger. so, stronger shrooms=less blueing when cut, ime. i could speculate as to why, but from what i understand it's not the alkaloids that turn blue, so potency and blueing aren't related.
basically, what i'm saying is like crossing an elephant with a rhino. 'ellaphino.
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Mugnath
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Fungal growth]
#16499516 - 07/08/12 01:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fungal growth said: ive seen it happen, seems like some strains do some don't. what i found interesting was that those strains the lab rats have reported to be weaker turn blue much faster than those they reported to be stronger. so, stronger shrooms=less blueing when cut, ime. i could speculate as to why, but from what i understand it's not the alkaloids that turn blue, so potency and blueing aren't related.
basically, what i'm saying is like crossing an elephant with a rhino. 'ellaphino.
Exactly as he said, potency and bluing are unrelated, it all has to do with genetics.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Mugnath]
#16503417 - 07/09/12 10:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Okay now I'm confused. So if the bluing not the oxidation of psilocybin what is it?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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MrBreakingBad
Learn'n from the masters
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16503447 - 07/09/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Okay now I'm confused. So if the bluing not the oxidation of psilocybin what is it?
That's a fair question. But just to clarify, psilocybin is not the alkaloid in question for degradation, but psilocin. psilocybin is very stable and does not oxidize.
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16503482 - 07/09/12 11:22 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16503648 - 07/09/12 12:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
KS_funguy said: Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
You got it. But, psilocin is also present in the shrooms naturally as well. To what degree depends on the shrooms. So, higher amounts of psilocin will likely mean weaker shrooms after drying opposed to if it had higher amounts of psilocybin.
But it was also my understanding that the bluing was due to the breakdown and oxygenation of the psilocin.
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16503662 - 07/09/12 12:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched
you cutting it open is making it stain.
did you know that your blood is blue? and when it's oxygenated it turns red?
but you've never seen blue blood.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16503673 - 07/09/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MrBreakingBad said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said: Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
You got it. But, psilocin is also present in the shrooms naturally as well. To what degree depends on the shrooms. So, higher amounts of psilocin will likely mean weaker shrooms after drying opposed to if it had higher amounts of psilocybin.
But it was also my understanding that the bluing was due to the breakdown and oxygenation of the psilocin.
Was always told that's why orange juice was beneficial to wash down the shrooms. The acid in the juice converts the psilocybin to psilocin in the stomach, reducing the amount of un-converted psilocybin being excreted as waste. But I think we ALL have heard things in the past that may or may not be based on scientific fact. Amounts to old-wives tales passed down from hippy to hippy probably. lol
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16503690 - 07/09/12 12:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
KS_funguy said:
Quote:
MrBreakingBad said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said: Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
You got it. But, psilocin is also present in the shrooms naturally as well. To what degree depends on the shrooms. So, higher amounts of psilocin will likely mean weaker shrooms after drying opposed to if it had higher amounts of psilocybin.
But it was also my understanding that the bluing was due to the breakdown and oxygenation of the psilocin.
Was always told that's why orange juice was beneficial to wash down the shrooms. The acid in the juice converts the psilocybin to psilocin in the stomach, reducing the amount of un-converted psilocybin being excreted as waste. But I think we ALL have heard things in the past that may or may not be based on scientific fact. Amounts to old-wives tales passed down from hippy to hippy probably. lol
there's a couple threads to read that will answer any questions about these.
one is the lemon tek thread.
the other is the tea tek thread.
tea tek is in my sig. lemon tek you can find.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16503732 - 07/09/12 12:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
KS_funguy said:
Quote:
MrBreakingBad said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said: Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
You got it. But, psilocin is also present in the shrooms naturally as well. To what degree depends on the shrooms. So, higher amounts of psilocin will likely mean weaker shrooms after drying opposed to if it had higher amounts of psilocybin.
But it was also my understanding that the bluing was due to the breakdown and oxygenation of the psilocin.
Was always told that's why orange juice was beneficial to wash down the shrooms. The acid in the juice converts the psilocybin to psilocin in the stomach, reducing the amount of un-converted psilocybin being excreted as waste. But I think we ALL have heard things in the past that may or may not be based on scientific fact. Amounts to old-wives tales passed down from hippy to hippy probably. lol
That is mis-information; It doesn't break it down. Psilocybin is broken down into psilocin by enzymes located in the body (not sure which organ). The ascorbic acid found in fruit juice extracts the psilocybin and psilocin out from the shrooms for easier digestion. So, yes it does make you higher faster, but not in the way you thought
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16507795 - 07/10/12 02:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MrBreakingBad said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said:
Quote:
MrBreakingBad said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said: Wow, learn something new every day. I had *always* heard that the degree of bluing was directly related to the potency. So, please forgive my ignorance, but isn't psilocin the chem that psilocybin breaks down into when it metabolizes into the body? So the higher level of psilocin should in turn mean stronger shrooms, n'est-ce pas?
You got it. But, psilocin is also present in the shrooms naturally as well. To what degree depends on the shrooms. So, higher amounts of psilocin will likely mean weaker shrooms after drying opposed to if it had higher amounts of psilocybin.
But it was also my understanding that the bluing was due to the breakdown and oxygenation of the psilocin.
Was always told that's why orange juice was beneficial to wash down the shrooms. The acid in the juice converts the psilocybin to psilocin in the stomach, reducing the amount of un-converted psilocybin being excreted as waste. But I think we ALL have heard things in the past that may or may not be based on scientific fact. Amounts to old-wives tales passed down from hippy to hippy probably. lol
That is mis-information; It doesn't break it down. Psilocybin is broken down into psilocin by enzymes located in the body (not sure which organ). The ascorbic acid found in fruit juice extracts the psilocybin and psilocin out from the shrooms for easier digestion. So, yes it does make you higher faster, but not in the way you thought
my sources (primalsoup) says its citric acid, how similar is it to ascorbic?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16508205 - 07/10/12 07:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
my sources (primalsoup) says its citric acid, how similar is it to ascorbic?
Erowind used ascrobic acid (Vitamin C) to store his extracted alkaloids. Citric acid also seems to have the same effect. I theorize that ascetic acid (vinegar) on shrooms to should also cause alkaloid extraction, and will be testing this shortly.
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16508927 - 07/10/12 10:56 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MrBreakingBad said: I theorize that ascetic acid (vinegar) on shrooms to should also cause alkaloid extraction,
it should.
i feel like its just acidic liquid that does the trick
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16510049 - 07/10/12 02:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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So in theory, an acidic liquid and alcohol could be combined to extract the alkaloid, then evaporated for pure alkaloid, right?
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16510054 - 07/10/12 02:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry, that was off-topic. Not trying to hijack the thread. Sorry guys.
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16511865 - 07/10/12 09:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
KS_funguy said: then evaporated for pure alkaloid, right?
both psilocybin and psilocin (psilocin moreso) are said to be incredibly unstable in open air.
they need to be inside a mushroom. or inside ph altered liquid (acidic)
people try and evap the stuff and blah, i dont think it works.
give it a shot, you should have plenty to play with
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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reinfect
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16513047 - 07/11/12 05:22 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
LiquidGlass said: So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched
you cutting it open is making it stain.
did you know that your blood is blue? and when it's oxygenated it turns red?
but you've never seen blue blood.
You're joking right? I'm not trying to have attitude but blood never turns blue. If you were to vacuum-extract deoxygenated blood it would still be a very deep red. The blue we see in our veins is a color distortion caused by our skin. Again, sorry if you were being sarcastic.
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Oeric McKenna
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Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 5,318
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: reinfect]
#16513057 - 07/11/12 05:35 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Only blood low on oxygen (in veins on its way to the heart) is blue. There is much red blood! (Arteries) Have you guys ever read scientific reports of psilocin oxidizing into certain unknown alks? I can't remember where I read that and how often it occurs. I've been wanting to study beaostacin(spelling?) Since my insane liberty cap trip
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Oeric McKenna]
#16513154 - 07/11/12 07:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oeric McKenna said: Only blood low on oxygen (in veins on its way to the heart) is blue. There is much red blood! (Arteries) Have you guys ever read scientific reports of psilocin oxidizing into certain unknown alks? I can't remember where I read that and how often it occurs. I've been wanting to study beaostacin(spelling?) Since my insane liberty cap trip
I've never heard of psilocin oxidizing into unknown alkaloids. But it does make sense, because once oxidized it may not have the same high producing effect, but it's still there.
Not sure what you mean by 'beaostacin' though.
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16513161 - 07/11/12 07:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
KS_funguy said: then evaporated for pure alkaloid, right?
both psilocybin and psilocin (psilocin moreso) are said to be incredibly unstable in open air.
they need to be inside a mushroom. or inside ph altered liquid (acidic)
people try and evap the stuff and blah, i dont think it works.
give it a shot, you should have plenty to play with
It's a necessary step in concentrating the alkaloid to desired levels, but if the alkaloids are immersed in alcohol, or an alcohol-acid mixture I expect the oxidization to be minimal. You could argue that drying subjects them to far higher levels of oxygenation.
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k00laid
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16513653 - 07/11/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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baeocystin is another active tryptamine found in some mushroom species.
there is much debate about whether or not cubes even contain this alkaloid.
it's very prominent in the pan and other psilocybe mushrooms.
but cubes seem to be lacking it. but we dont really know yet.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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carnage11
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16513842 - 07/11/12 10:56 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Isn't baeocystin the active alkaloid found in the bufo frog? Or am I getting it confused with something else.
To the Google! *cape spin*
edit: yeah, I was confused. I'm thinking of bufotenin, which is the active found in the bufo alvarius frog. Or 5-OH-DMT.
-------------------- You're breathing so I guess you're still alive Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
Edited by carnage11 (07/11/12 11:00 AM)
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Oeric McKenna
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: carnage11]
#16514211 - 07/11/12 12:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its there along^ with bufotenine of course . I know the liberty vaps from Wash. Have it along with (nor) b. They've made me black out before. Verrry potent!
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower
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Posts: 5,288
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Oeric McKenna]
#16525342 - 07/13/12 12:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Im on my PS3 and cant use the quote tool propely but k00laid you said "you cutting it open is making it stain." In my post I tried to make it clear that the inside of the fruits were already blue before being picked. All fruits Ive grown before are white inside when cut, staining blue shortly after. And ive been growing for quite a while
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16525360 - 07/13/12 12:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Im on my PS3 and cant use the quote tool propely but k00laid you said "you cutting it open is making it stain." In my post I tried to make it clear that the inside of the fruits were already blue before being picked. All fruits Ive grown before are white inside when cut, staining blue shortly after. And ive been growing for quite a while
Wow... never seen them do THAT before... That's crazy...
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carnage11
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16525401 - 07/13/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Im on my PS3 and cant use the quote tool propely but k00laid you said "you cutting it open is making it stain." In my post I tried to make it clear that the inside of the fruits were already blue before being picked. All fruits Ive grown before are white inside when cut, staining blue shortly after. And ive been growing for quite a while
Sounds like a lack of moisture, are the stems hollow? Just make sure you're properly dunking for 24 hours and maybe try to increase your FAE.
-------------------- You're breathing so I guess you're still alive Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: carnage11]
#16525989 - 07/13/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Theyre pretty solid and chunky, not too dry. Oh yea its a casing and not cakes
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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carnage11
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16526363 - 07/13/12 03:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Theyre pretty solid and chunky, not too dry. Oh yea its a casing and not cakes
They may be just REALLY potent. There's a strain of albino penis envy out there that grow blue. I've never had the pleasure of trying them, but from what I hear they are extremely potent for cubes.
-------------------- You're breathing so I guess you're still alive Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
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MrBreakingBad
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: carnage11]
#16526432 - 07/13/12 04:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bizarre... It was my understanding that no 'strain' of cubes offer such variation. But if there is, I think we'd all want to get our hands on some spores
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KS_funguy
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: carnage11]
#16526766 - 07/13/12 05:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh god... where on earth can I get THOSE cute little bastards? Those are phenomenal! Never seen blue ones like that!
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LiquidGlass
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Posts: 5,288
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: KS_funguy]
#16526812 - 07/13/12 05:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well I haven't tried any, but other ppl are saying that they are some of the best. They were south american spores given to me by a friend.
I would love to get my hands on some penis envy, albino or otherwise . . .
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Treefeeler
Skill Collector
Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 889
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: reinfect]
#16526891 - 07/13/12 05:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
reinfect said:
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k00laid said:
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LiquidGlass said: So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched
you cutting it open is making it stain.
did you know that your blood is blue? and when it's oxygenated it turns red?
but you've never seen blue blood.
You're joking right? I'm not trying to have attitude but blood never turns blue. If you were to vacuum-extract deoxygenated blood it would still be a very deep red. The blue we see in our veins is a color distortion caused by our skin. Again, sorry if you were being sarcastic.
The color shift is from a bright red (characteristic of highly oxygenated blood) to a deep maroon (blood that's depleted of oxygen). When the central heme group within the hemoglobin protein complex shifts it's charge, it induces a change in the type of light wavelengths reflected. No blue, but a color shift non the less.
I was always under the impression that psilocybin is dephosphorylated into psilocin inside of the stomach. But a shroomery member (albeit without listing a source) said this is false, and that it actually occurs in the liver. I asked for some follow up information, never got it, so the jury is still out. I'm personally still of the opinion that it occurs in the stomach, as dephosphorylation doesn't necessarily need to be enzyme mediated, since the oxygen bound to the indole can be protonated directly and shed it's phosphate. This is supported by the success of lemon tek.
-------------------- With the exception of grammatical corrections, everything I say is completely false and without foundation.
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Project
Ride the Spiral
Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16526911 - 07/13/12 05:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Okay now I'm confused. So if the bluing not the oxidation of psilocybin what is it?
I can tell you that bluing has NOTHING to do with potency. You may see fruits bruise like crazy and not be potent and you may see no bruising with very potent fruits. RR said something to the effect of, bruising is more strain dependent than potency dependent.... I think that's what he said. Anyway, he definitely said that it has nothing to do with potency.
Personally, I could care less if mushrooms bruise or not. Though sometimes bruising does look kind of neat, I guess.. Haha
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower
Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Project]
#16527084 - 07/13/12 06:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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What about when you have fruitings of the same strain using different sub and one harvest blues more than the other?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Project
Ride the Spiral
Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16527114 - 07/13/12 06:28 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: What about when you have fruitings of the same strain using different sub and one harvest blues more than the other?
If it came from a MS syringe then you may as well disregard the name of the strain you thought you had. A single MS syringe may give rise to numerous strains... Unless it's something like PE, or something similar, strain names on an MS syringe are arbitrary.
Consider a MS syringe a melting pot of spore genetics.
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MrBreakingBad
Learn'n from the masters
Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 172
Loc:
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Treefeeler]
#16527167 - 07/13/12 06:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Treefeeler said:
Quote:
reinfect said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
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LiquidGlass said: So I'm wondering what could make these stain without being touched
you cutting it open is making it stain.
did you know that your blood is blue? and when it's oxygenated it turns red?
but you've never seen blue blood.
You're joking right? I'm not trying to have attitude but blood never turns blue. If you were to vacuum-extract deoxygenated blood it would still be a very deep red. The blue we see in our veins is a color distortion caused by our skin. Again, sorry if you were being sarcastic.
The color shift is from a bright red (characteristic of highly oxygenated blood) to a deep maroon (blood that's depleted of oxygen). When the central heme group within the hemoglobin protein complex shifts it's charge, it induces a change in the type of light wavelengths reflected. No blue, but a color shift non the less.
I was always under the impression that psilocybin is dephosphorylated into psilocin inside of the stomach. But a shroomery member (albeit without listing a source) said this is false, and that it actually occurs in the liver. I asked for some follow up information, never got it, so the jury is still out. I'm personally still of the opinion that it occurs in the stomach, as dephosphorylation doesn't necessarily need to be enzyme mediated, since the oxygen bound to the indole can be protonated directly and shed it's phosphate. This is supported by the success of lemon tek.
I can't vouch for where it happens, but I can say that an enzyme is required for dephosphorylation. So, I think it highly unlikely, probably impossible, for that process to happen in the stomach.
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Treefeeler
Skill Collector
Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 889
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16527896 - 07/13/12 09:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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It was speculated before but dry conditions (either loss of water in the substrate because you're on the 3rd/4th flush, or lack of humidity) can cause bluing. If you're running two different substrates maybe one is more effective at retaining water than the other. I know on my FIRST attempt I got lots of stunted mushies and aborts because the humidity was nowhere near what it should have been, they were all very blue.
-------------------- With the exception of grammatical corrections, everything I say is completely false and without foundation.
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k00laid
NEMO
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: MrBreakingBad]
#16528336 - 07/13/12 11:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Treefeeler said: This is supported by the success of lemon tek.
im so positive that the lemon tek has NOTHING to do with dephosphorylated alkaloids.
acids help to break down the mushroom chitin. allowing for faster absorption.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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MrBreakingBad
Learn'n from the masters
Registered: 06/29/12
Posts: 172
Loc:
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: k00laid]
#16530562 - 07/14/12 02:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
Treefeeler said: This is supported by the success of lemon tek.
im so positive that the lemon tek has NOTHING to do with dephosphorylated alkaloids.
acids help to break down the mushroom chitin. allowing for faster absorption.
QFT
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Project
Ride the Spiral
Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: LiquidGlass]
#16530629 - 07/14/12 02:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: What about when you have fruitings of the same strain using different sub and one harvest blues more than the other?
With a MS syringe, you're not just getting one specific strain. Therefore you're probably looking at different strains. But they're still cubensis, so it doesn't really matter all too much.
Like I said, the name that was on your syringe when you ordered it was arbitrary. Yeah, there are some exceptions, like PE and all the other PE-like strains. I've even seen B+ from an MS syringe give larger fruits than average, but compared to my other tubs (that weren't labeled B+), the end weights were all similar anyway. But for the most part, strain names are arbitrary.
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Indigo-Child
Stranger
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Re: Oxidizing of alkaloids before harvest [Re: Project]
#16531047 - 07/14/12 04:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I just skimmed through this, someone may have brought this up, it might not be relevant, and it is certainly off topic, but...
Although I have heard that the bluing is caused by psilocin oxidation, I'm quite sure this isn't what causes the bruising. Extraction of the goodies via EtOH/H2O (80/20 seems about right) 48h soxhlet yields a remarkably beautiful crystalline substance (I wish my camera could do these justice), said crystalline substance does not turn dark blue on standing (and certainly not after handling), but rather an orangish and finally reddish color (weeks later, the stuff is not as unstable as people seem to think), similar to the oxidation products of other tryptamines I've encountered. Refluxing a small amount of this product in 30% H2O2 (effectively oxidizing the product fully) still does not push it past this dark red color. Oxidation of psilocin is certainly NOT responsible for the discoloration upon handling.
Also, using fresh fruits/mycellium that have been blended/food processed (talk about bruising, this turns the whole mass black) before extraction in the soxhlet remain black after the extraction and the solvent takes on very little color. Clearly whatever causes the bluing is too non-polar to be extracted using this method. A mixture of an alcohol and water would easily remove the oxidation product of any amine/zwit. Not too surprisingly, soxhleting while using anhy. Et2O pulls out a ton of dark coloring, distilling the ether away yields a dark goo that STINKS of....well..."mushrooms in general" (its like mushroom concentrate0.
Lastly, many non psychoactive mushrooms also bruise a similar color (boletes come immediately to mind). The indoles aren't the only compounds found in hallucinogenic fungus. I can tell you that after spending enough time around chemicals, you can easily recognize something very "synthetic" smelling in the mushroom concentrate (and mushrooms in general after you know what you are sniffing for), that musky smell is indicative of phenolic compounds (many of which are brilliantly colored, BTW). I suspect the bruising is caused by something like this...Hope this clears some things up.
P.S. As far as lemon juice goes, I'd wager that psilocybin could easily be converted to psilocin with a strong enough acid or base (hydrolysis). Not sure that concentrated citric acid has a low enough pKa to do this quickly let alone lemon juice , but it may have some effect on conversion (especially if heat is added).
Tony.
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