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OfflineAdamist
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All men are created equal...?
    #1649537 - 06/20/03 10:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I tend to think this statement is false. I think humans are made up of many, many layers; consisting of multiple types of intelligences, such as mathematical intelligence, emotional intelligence, physical, artistic, etc...

Could it be, though, that every human's intelligence is equal, just dispersed in different areas?

This question arose when I started thinking about how I honestly feel above "the common man" in terms of intelligence, (which I know is a very common thought in young males...) and then condemned those feelings as egocentric and thus, false (or at the least, illusory).

But are they false? Are we really all the same? Does Joe the plumber possess no less substance to his being than Swami Gee the guru?  :confused: 


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OfflineCrapula
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1649553 - 06/20/03 10:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yes....I think we are all equal. The only limits we have are the ones that we set in our mind.


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Crapula]
    #1649613 - 06/20/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Are we all the same?

Does it really matter?



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Anonymous

Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1649620 - 06/20/03 10:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

theres no way to answer your question accurately

imo,

everyone is born, lives, and dies. Nothing changes that

*quality* of the living is equal according to how opposite sides swirl around and now im getting off track and looney.
im done


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1649632 - 06/20/03 10:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

as strumpling says... insert an I think.... HERE, that we, as humans, our genes create a rather diverse univeres for us to respond to. Our genes play a big role in who we are, but then again i think upbringing is very important. If i hadnt had some of the things happen in my life.... i would be a totally different person...Totally different. You would have to know that all of a selected group of men were given the same chances, with the same resources. Then you might say all men are created equal. but then you would have to rule out aliens affecting our DNA chain, or that by chance all men are truely the same. What if one day, a certain gene common to a whole bunch of humans decides to turn into a time bomb...

It seems like the "walking with cavemen" depicts homo sapiens as the race that had the imagination to sustain. But now... look at the world today... you really think that the majority of humans really know what it takes to create a peaceful society? much less try to work towards that goal? Well... then i think that you may see a split in our race. and maybe the truely smartest and good willed will survive, cause they will understand that if we dont get over our pety difference we will never make it. So in that respect, maybe man is created equal. that is his free will, the choice to survive and open oneself up to the unknown and to adaptation. or to choose to live in fear and stagnation resisting change, and falling apart to ruin in a new world. We can choose to do the right thing, most people just dont and they make excuses for their action as if the universe was contained soley within their personal bubble.

but about the dispersion.. yeah i kind of feel like that man. sometimes it seems like an RPG game. You know you are a certain race and class and all and you have all these character alignments. and you have a small range to pin point who you are.


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What?


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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1649729 - 06/20/03 11:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I also think that people are for the most part intelligent (just some more than others) but what REALLY makes the difference is the upbringing and the desire for knowledge, most people who have so desire to become smarter never will.

this is a little off-track, but follow me here for a second.

I think that humans are now "de-volving" since we have a society set up that protects the weak members of the species, (both physically and mentally, but ESPECIALLY mentally) natural selection has slowed down, it's all fucked up now, even the most inept of humans can survive now that we've become such a large species. Not much we can do about it though.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1649741 - 06/20/03 11:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I think that we are all created equal in the sense that we all have an equal capacity to become intelligent, loving beings when we are first born. However, as people mature, they are on different levels in many different ways because of the different societies they are brought up in. Still, I say we are created equal.


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Namaste.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1650101 - 06/21/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

we can all suffer equally.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Malachi]
    #1650191 - 06/21/03 03:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe we are created equal, and I don't believe we are offered the same chances. I'd like to believe in reincarnation but I have no evidence for it. I do believe in something beyond the body, though, so I could live with ideas like "we are given different and unique opportunities which can benefit us positively, in a relatively equal manner - i.e. there is always room to better one's situation, if one only knew how".

Our psyches, I think, are initiated by our genetic makeup; we are then limited largely by our physical makeup and environment, and opportunities born of luck. Silver spoons and good genes get the leg up, and the lower classes and inbred lag the field. It's unfortunate, but I think it is true also of groups of other mammals, at least as commonly presented on TV shows. However as humans I think we have the potential to, through willpower and "tool-using" ingenuity, break out of the limitations in some manner.

This is rapidly boiling down to a nature vs nurture post, and the dichotomy for me as usual ends up as "both and neither." Both, in that both give us our opportunities, but neither, in that potentially neither need be a limit. I think there are enough examples of genetically "impure" finding their ways to higher stratas of society, and the same is obviously true also of the developmentally unpriviledged (how's that for a nice PC term...re my earlier "de-programming" post, my generation were definitely programmed with PCitudes.)

Gurdjieff (or somebody) spoke about "hungry ghosts" (or was that Buddha, or both? Too lazy to check a book. One or the other or neither. Or both.) The vast multitudes of the robotic, or souless. I don't know if I buy that, since although I do meet stupid people (nominates for "hungry ghosts"), I don't meet the multitude that would be expected by the idea. On the other hand, at various nocturnal events there is a definite distinctual quality to the attending crowd that isn't present in e.g. a place of corporate business. Is "hungry ghostism" equated with being mainstream (as opposed to counter) culture? Or do people just repress that part of themselves while in their "serf" roles?

But do I think that life is fundamentally "fair"? No, in that each of our dealt hands are different in many ways including whatever is meant by the term "luck." Some people are born "with it", and others struggle all their lives against disaster after disaster.






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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1650320 - 06/21/03 05:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Equal in WORTH or ABILITY?
Define WORTH.
Define ABILITY.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1650517 - 06/21/03 10:05 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're taking that out of context. "All man are created equal" is not to mean that we are of equal abilities, intelligence etc. but that all are created with equal rights, no man should be held above any other regardless of his greater or lesser qualities.


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OfflineKenny Bus
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1650524 - 06/21/03 10:10 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i like to think so, but i'm optimistic. but i would have to say that its not upbrining or intelligence that matters, its morals. of course you could say how you were raised affects your sense of right and wrong but i think thats a hole other arguement.if we were all created equal wouldnt we all be the same? or am i being to literal?


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KB


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1650596 - 06/21/03 11:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

but some are more equal than others.....lol


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineMurex
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1650718 - 06/21/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)


I think that humans are now "de-volving" since we have a society set up that protects the weak members of the species, (both physically and mentally, but ESPECIALLY mentally) natural selection has slowed down, it's all fucked up now, even the most inept of humans can survive now that we've become such a large species. Not much we can do about it though.

I agree with this.

I really think a lot of factors play into this mix. DNA, upbringing, self-determinism and knowledge all vary depending on the person. Nobody is equal imo. Most people usually have a 'special' trait about them that makes them superior in their own way. Everyone also have a trait that is far below average as well (for the most part I think so).

There is no standard for good and bad anyways, so why make one up? Reality is in the eye of the beholder.


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1650892 - 06/21/03 02:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Worth: the standard unit of worth should be one human life (animal lovers, go away.). One human life is worth more if other human lives are dependent on it.

**Questions im still pondering...
What about ones lifespan (shouldnt a child be worth more than a frail old man)?
What about one's potential for saving lives(eg. would a doctor be worth more than child?)?
Does intellegence factor in?
Does capacity for suffering factor in? Heck, IS THERE more capacity for suffering in some people?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1650898 - 06/21/03 02:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

And as for ability, it's obvious that all men are NOT created equal in that arena or I would have graduated from college at 11 years of age (like that one genius little bastard.)


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focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineShroomFarmer
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Adamist]
    #1651488 - 06/21/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Adamist said:
I tend to think this statement is false. I think humans are made up of many, many layers; consisting of multiple types of intelligences, such as mathematical intelligence, emotional intelligence, physical, artistic, etc...

Could it be, though, that every human's intelligence is equal, just dispersed in different areas?

This question arose when I started thinking about how I honestly feel above "the common man" in terms of intelligence, (which I know is a very common thought in young males...) and then condemned those feelings as egocentric and thus, false (or at the least, illusory).

But are they false? Are we really all the same? Does Joe the plumber possess no less substance to his being than Swami Gee the guru?  :confused: 




All men are CREATED equal. What happens to us after creation is up to us and our upbringing. Somebody that has a PHD does not equal someone who has dropped out of high school. Stop hating yourself. You ARE better than other people. Keep that mindset and you'll go places. Don't put yourself down for because you fell sorry for somebody that doesn't have what you do. Lift them up, but don't lower yourself.


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crinkle crinkle


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1651529 - 06/21/03 06:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I think that humans are now "de-volving" since we have a society set up that protects the weak members of the species, (both physically and mentally, but ESPECIALLY mentally) natural selection has slowed down, it's all fucked up now, even the most inept of humans can survive now that we've become such a large species. Not much we can do about it though.



What kind of long-term effects do you think this will have on the human race, and the planet we inhabit??  :shocked: 


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1651548 - 06/21/03 06:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Well, I think that we are all created equal in the sense that we all have an equal capacity to become intelligent, loving beings when we are first born.



But what about humans born severely handicapped, with IQs equal to monkeys? Do they have the same capacity to become an intelligent, loving being as everyone else?

Quote:

However, as people mature, they are on different levels in many different ways because of the different societies they are brought up in. Still, I say we are created equal.


I think that society does have alot to do with it, but you're leaving out genetics... Many extremely intelligent people have been born and raised in the worst imaginable conditions. Likewise, many idiots come from ideal environments.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: All men are created equal...? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1651570 - 06/21/03 06:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This is rapidly boiling down to a nature vs nurture post, and the dichotomy for me as usual ends up as "both and neither." Both, in that both give us our opportunities, but neither, in that potentially neither need be a limit.


Great answer! I take a similar stance...

Quote:

Gurdjieff (or somebody) spoke about "hungry ghosts" (or was that Buddha, or both? Too lazy to check a book. One or the other or neither. Or both.) The vast multitudes of the robotic, or souless.


Yes I believe you are referring to Gurdjieff's belief that most of humanity is in a 'deep sleep', and that most of the time we walk around in predictable, predetermined patterns (like robots) and rarely do we break out and really experience what it means to be alive. Even rarer are the people who are consistently in this state.

(At least I think that's how it goes... If anyone knowledgeable on Gurdjieff wants to expand upon that, feel free.)


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