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OfflineNoitartst
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I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With
    #16471617 - 07/02/12 06:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm currently emotionally apathetic, unemployed, and 33 years old.  I used to be depressed, but psychedelics cured me.  Trouble is, I'm apathetic, and therefore umotivated.

I'm working with certain agencies and therapists to get a job, but I'm seeking more specific help I can't provide.  I gutted myself emotionally, because I didn't find anyone willing to truly listen, and it was nightmarish. 

Now, I'm seeking to revisit the traumas of my past from a more confident, resourced place.  Ergo, I wish to argue, but from a place of mutual respect and understanding. 

I've blogged about it, here: http://noitartst.wordpress.com
I think I've articulated my positions well, and am now reaching out to recapture the passion I hold towards life.  The blogs lead somewhere; start with the older and then follow to the newer, and you'll see my position emerge.

SOme have balked at my requests because they the think I demand I talk about them, but your personal life isn't what I wanna talk of at all; rather, I simply seek to ensure that you don't stonewall citing your personal life as an excuse. (I'm quite forgiving of such weakness, as ego besets us all, but make no mistake it is weakness, and as much as ego prevents us from facing the truth, it is both cowardly and pathetic.)


I'm truly seekin' aid, folks.

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Offlinewithoutawire
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst] * 1
    #16474048 - 07/03/12 08:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You need more psychedelics.


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:tigerbunny:

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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: withoutawire]
    #16475699 - 07/03/12 03:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

withoutawire said:
You need more psychedelics.



:ancientaliens:


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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16477392 - 07/03/12 09:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You're looking for an indulgent therapist?


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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: CherryBom]
    #16495248 - 07/07/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Not an indulgent threrapist--what gave you that idea?  What good would a sycophant do me, anyways?  I'm apathetic, and while psychedelics has cured my depression, it hasn't fixed my apathy.

Big problem, that.

Edited by Noitartst (07/07/12 01:42 PM)

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Offlinewithoutawire
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16495387 - 07/07/12 02:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Find some hobbies, exercise, get passionate about something. Stimulate your mind from within, not from arguing with other people.


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:tigerbunny:

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: withoutawire]
    #16495781 - 07/07/12 03:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ANd you think I I haven't?  Friend, I have!  Instead, I think it's time to reacquaint with some of the initial trauma, but from a better space. 

Call me stupid, obsessive, unforgiving or whatever, but apathy has to be dealt with.

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OfflineLastBreath
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16496294 - 07/07/12 06:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone here want to argue with me about politics and religion?


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OfflineKroovy
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: LastBreath]
    #16502427 - 07/09/12 03:15 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Why don't you state a topic before you go asking for an open argument? How can we argue with you if we don't know what you stand for?


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InvisibleNifflerz
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: LastBreath] * 1
    #16502586 - 07/09/12 05:19 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

[off-topic post removed]


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Aka Pudge (the real one, not the bitch ass fake one from 2020)

Edited by geokills (07/10/12 06:25 PM)

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: LastBreath]
    #16503989 - 07/09/12 01:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LastBreath said:
Anyone here want to argue with me about politics and religion?




Why not?  I just want people to respect the golden rule, in return, and not whine 'n bash the bitch outta their egos with question marks.  (For more specifics, you can check my blog at Wordpress.com, of whose link I left in the first post here.)

Me, I think I'd like to argue about Creation vs. Evolution, for one, though I'm open to others.  Another topic to dispute is feminism. 

How 'bout feminism?  I think it's dumb, unnecessary, not grounded in reality, and while I like "strong" women, they can take all kinds of forms.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst] * 1
    #16504986 - 07/09/12 05:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With




No you're not.

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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: tito123]
    #16507732 - 07/10/12 01:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I like feminism and consider myself feminized. There is always a real-thing going on beneath the surface, Evita Peron is one interesting - true - feminist, I don't remember any other names. While the mainstream, wealthy, feminist media pets are all traitors and only harm the cause, there are real-feminists who have constructive ideas.

I really like the idea of eliminating medical intervention with child birth, let more children and mothers die, its natural. Over population is the biggest problem, the solution is to let people die. While I oppose the war on drugs, I support the regulation of procreation. A global government should enforce 1 child per 1 couple. Compulsory abortions might be necessary for the greater good.

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16508163 - 07/10/12 06:30 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Hi Noit.  I browsed through your blog.  I dig your writing style even though parts can be hard to comprehend as tired as I am.  I can appreciate the ways you are frustrated in dealings with other people, but I think in general you're being too hard on others and yourself.  I know how it is to be stubborn with ideas but sometimes we need to fake a little humility in order to get along :grin:  When there is mutual respect and understanding it is not arguing as much as a debate.  There are better forums at the shroomery for debate.

I really don't think that psychedelics "cured" anything.  Apathy and depression are basically inseperable.  Regular use of psychelics could even cause depression.

Quote:

How 'bout feminism?  I think it's dumb, unnecessary, not grounded in reality, and while I like "strong" women, they can take all kinds of forms.




That is a broad, offensive statement, and you don't make the slightest effort to back it up.  I can see why people don't like to argue with you :smirk:

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16509840 - 07/10/12 02:01 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tito123 said:
Quote:

I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With




No you're not.




What maketh you say that?

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
I like feminism and consider myself feminized. There is always a real-thing going on beneath the surface, Evita Peron is one interesting - true - feminist, I don't remember any other names. While the mainstream, wealthy, feminist media pets are all traitors and only harm the cause, there are real-feminists who have constructive ideas.

I really like the idea of eliminating medical intervention with child birth, let more children and mothers die, its natural. Over population is the biggest problem, the solution is to let people die. While I oppose the war on drugs, I support the regulation of procreation. A global government should enforce 1 child per 1 couple. Compulsory abortions might be necessary for the greater good.




Notice where people get fat: the first world--and yet, for largely self-interested reasons, first-world birth rates are low, and prime US farmland keeps shrinking, and finds itself used for other purposes because it ain't needed. 

Notice that the birth explosion is occurring in Africa(which has some great farmland), where starvation and disease is rampant.  It shouldn't be that way, should it?  Why is isn't it the other way around?  The third world's population should be decimated, and the first's skyrocketing. 

Another thing you've ignored are the dangers of an aging population.  Birth control has largely granted the eugenics' with, but without resorting to any draconian measures.  Assuming the third world becomes first, this danger will be all too apparent.

You know, it's a real irony that as it's become more acceptable out of wedlock.  Birth control makes sex less enjoyable in any number of ways, and at any rate, sex is best with one partner in a long-term relationship, and today's society simply is not good at fostering them, is it?

Today's society discourages women from having children in any number of ways, to the chagrin of many.  It's made two-family incomes expected, keeping women busy in the workspace rather than focusing on having kids, and also making them wait longer before having them.  If you ask me, the pro-feminist societal forces are a eugenicist's best friend. 

Feminism from an economic perspective makes sense, but then, when you extrapolate that into social, and even worse, romantic, spheres, then you run into increasing problems.  Okay, so if women are more "liberated" then ever before, why are they also more stressed out than ever before?  If feminism's really that sweet, then why does it bring so much discontent in its wake.

Feminism wants to ignore the fact that men an women are genetically, neurologically, chemically, and emotionally hardwired to be different, and instead say it's all social programming, basically, and that's what riles me. 

Feminism is opposed to the natural order, demanding antiseptic equality, in all respects, and portraying the relations twixt genders as war.  Listen: I may be opposed to misogyny, too, but it's superior to feminism as much as it embraces the natural order, in contrast to fighting it. (One goes against the grain, the other fights it, even if both mar the pattern.)

Read any books on body language at the library? Dating?  To generalize, the man must show dominance, the woman submission.  Thing is, feminism finds this threatening, and that's why I'm against it. 

A lot of so-called feminists seem to embrace the natural order instinctively without realizing it.  I've watched some "Teens React to" videos recently on you tube, and there was this one cute, happy girl there, who made some feminist statements on Twilight and The Hunger Games, but when it came to "Facebook Parenting," where a certain laptop was shot, my impression from her reaction was that if she didn't want to marry that dad, then she blame well wanted to marry someone just like him.

Given such, forgive me if I find feminism to be ridiculous.

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16509954 - 07/10/12 02:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Hi Noit.  I browsed through your blog.  I dig your writing style even though parts can be hard to comprehend as tired as I am.  I can appreciate the ways you are frustrated in dealings with other people, but I think in general you're being too hard on others and yourself.  I know how it is to be stubborn with ideas but sometimes we need to fake a little humility in order to get along :grin:  When there is mutual respect and understanding it is not arguing as much as a debate.  There are better forums at the shroomery for debate.

I really don't think that psychedelics "cured" anything.  Apathy and depression are basically inseperable.  Regular use of psychelics could even cause depression.

Quote:

How 'bout feminism?  I think it's dumb, unnecessary, not grounded in reality, and while I like "strong" women, they can take all kinds of forms.




That is a broad, offensive statement, and you don't make the slightest effort to back it up.  I can see why people don't like to argue with you :smirk:




Well, I hope I backed it up to your satisfaction now, friend.

I'm doing better, seem to have found some necessary help, and am working hard through my lack of motivation.  As for psychedelics, I definitely triggrered something, allowing me to finally start moving forward.

I used to be super emotional, and talkative, but now, I'm not, and am trying to rectify that.  Apathy means reconnecting with what you're passionate about, and that's what I'm trying to do.

And as for humility, prefer it in the form of getting my face beaten in figuratively.

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16510269 - 07/10/12 03:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well, I hope I backed it up to your satisfaction now, friend.



Feminism is not about economics or eugenics as much as that women are human beings who deserve the same rights and respect as men.

Quote:

Feminism wants to ignore the fact that men an women are genetically, neurologically, chemically, and emotionally hardwired to be different



We are all each individually hardwired to be different, even between men.  You can choose to view someone as inferior based on gender, race, wealth, sexual orientation or anything else you please, but your views do not equal the "natual order".  Change is an undeniable part of nature, and I consider a change which allows more freedom of expression a good thing.

Humans and the societies we form are very diverse and there is no way of telling an individual's potential worth to society based on any one of these qualities, that is why eugenics doesn't work.  We don't even know what we are doing here and it is up to the individual to decide what is important.

There are many cultures that greatly limit a woman's choices in life.  Do these societies create happier or more productive people?  Doesn't seem like it to me.

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OfflineLastBreath
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16512729 - 07/11/12 01:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus is the Lord and savior of all eternity and anyone who disagrees with that is a heathen and an inferior being who will rot in hell for all eternity because he did not believe in god's only begotten son. The bible is inerrant and should be taken as absolute authority and literal truth. John 3:16 says that god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son as a sacrifice for mans sin so that he could be with god for all eternity, whoever believes in that one guy Jesus will spend eternity in heaven with God. Man is afforded 1 life and then judgment. Humanity is the center of the Universe, there is no life on any other planet except here, Aliens and Spirits are actually demons in disguise who are working for Satan to deceive you. Also, the earth is 10,000 years old, certain scientists who say otherwise have been deceived by Satan and have the mark of the Beast.

What I say is true and anyone who disagrees with me will rot in hell. :pope:


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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16514480 - 07/11/12 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

Well, I hope I backed it up to your satisfaction now, friend.



Feminism is not about economics or eugenics as much as that women are human beings who deserve the same rights and respect as men.

Quote:



I'm not against that.  If that was truly what feminism was about, then Id support it, but my hatred of feminism stems from its hatred of masculinity, making men look weak in order to make women look strong.  In spite of its feminism, I really liked Bufy the Vampire Slayer, you know?  It lost me, though, when it entered into cheap-shot territory, and that's the problem.

Feminism in pop culture thinks women were abused on screen, they, sometimes subtly, abuse men.  Postmodernism thinks it knows everything, and while I think she's more that then consciously feminist, I find her very arrogant in her asumptions.

Feminism wants to ignore the fact that men an women are genetically, neurologically, chemically, and emotionally hardwired to be different



We are all each individually hardwired to be different, even between men.  You can choose to view someone as inferior based on gender, race, wealth, sexual orientation or anything else you please, but your views do not equal the "natual order".  Change is an undeniable part of nature, and I consider a change which allows more freedom of expression a good thing.

Humans and the societies we form are very diverse and there is no way of telling an individual's potential worth to society based on any one of these qualities, that is why eugenics doesn't work.  We don't even know what we are doing here and it is up to the individual to decide what is important.

There are many cultures that greatly limit a woman's choices in life.  Do these societies create happier or more productive people?  Doesn't seem like it to me.




And as much as you deny change to deny the reality instincts, you're wrong.  Yeah, things change, but you know the saying. Society, on other hand, can, and is, nigh-infinitely malleable, though.

Societies are very different, but certain facial expresions and mannerisms cross all boundaries. Society was more tenuous, once, and thus birth rates were more vital because we died more often.  Was it a conspiracy that women needed to stay home more as a result? I think not. 

Men had to do a lot more manual labor too, as well as men.  It was difficult for everyone, but feminism forgets it.  Look at yourself--your rhetoric seems to asume that there there is a concerted efort to "put women in their place."  Keep in mind, as a woman herself said, when there's a war between the genders, everyone loses.

I said something much to that effect in a college paper once, and my teacher marked me down as result.  I don't want gender war, but if that's truly what you feminists want, bring it.  On average, we're bigger, stronger, and your only real advantage is you outlive us by a few years on average.

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16519113 - 07/12/12 10:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Look at yourself--your rhetoric seems to asume that there there is a concerted efort to "put women in their place."




Isn't that what you're attempting?  You believe that men are superior (at least physically), the real authority, and women are indebted to men for their existence.  You believe that a woman has no right to expect to be treated as an equal.

I'm sure there is another side, women who believe they are superior to men, but feminism is not about establishing superiority for women.  Feminism attempts to achieve equality between the sexes.  This doesn't mean you have to like women, that is your choice. 

A gender war? c'mon :smirk: This is not about competition it is about reducing injustice and suffering.  All humans deserve the same rights and protections as any other human. 

Edited by moonrockmushy (07/12/12 10:28 AM)

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16521184 - 07/12/12 04:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In the sense that men have on average 20% more muscle mass than the average woman, yes.  Are we politically and socially superior?  No; we are equal, but some animals are just more equal than other animals.  Some men are bigger, stronger, and faster, but that doesn't, or shouldn't, matter in the eyes of the law. 

Thing is, in hardwired social programming, such things do.  Studies show that the taller people gain greater regard than short ones, for instance.  It hurts short men, too, but since women tend to be the shortest, it hurts their status disproportionately.  Nature did that, not men.

Sure, you say that feminism is not about feminine superiority, but I find it interesting that the author of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, has observed that women in the most feminized countries (namely in Europe) are the places where men are most disparaged. 

If so, that's rather interesting.  Maybe feminism's goals are good in theory, but its attitude's not.  Feminism's ideology may not be sexist, but it's attitude...? 

You know I love Powerpuff Girls?  They are strong, tough girls, but they lack the feminist, chip-on-their shoulder attitude despite having to put up with that doddering, puerile-minded Mayor. They're caring, over-achieving, and ever trying to do the right thing, despite the cost.

I guess that in the sense feminism is against "injustice" I support it, but how exactly shouldst it be defined...?  Well, if you're against it, I hope you share my disgust at the constant cases of setting up masculinity to be beaten down like a helpless scarecrow on tv, and in movies. 

I can give plenty of examples of such if you like.  Show me feminism's got a better 'tude than I think it's got, and I think I'd reconsider my bias.

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16521400 - 07/12/12 05:51 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You know I love Powerpuff Girls?  They are strong, tough girls, but they lack the feminist, chip-on-their shoulder attitude despite having to put up with that doddering, puerile-minded Mayor. They're caring, over-achieving, and ever trying to do the right thing, despite the cost.



So you like strong women who still accept their role as subserviant to men.  Ok.  That is pretty sexist.

Quote:

I guess that in the sense feminism is against "injustice" I support it, but how exactly shouldst it be defined...?  Well, if you're against it, I hope you share my disgust at the constant cases of setting up masculinity to be beaten down like a helpless scarecrow on tv, and in movies. 



Who cares what happens in TV and movies, that is entertainment and fantasy only loosely based on the real world.  It is important to understand the difference.  Just out of curiosity can you provide an example because I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Quote:

Show me feminism's got a better 'tude than I think it's got, and I think I'd reconsider my bias.



I don't really know what you're looking for as far as examples, I don't think feminism has a 'tude.  It is a concept, a political ideology seeking to create equality by ending the opression of women.  You could say that radical feminists have gone too far, but anything can be taken to an extreme.  This does not negate the fact that there are countless instances where women are treated as subhuman by men, and it seems like radical feminism to you is women questioning the authority of men in any way.

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OfflineNoitartst
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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16526449 - 07/13/12 04:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

You know I love Powerpuff Girls?  They are strong, tough girls, but they lack the feminist, chip-on-their shoulder attitude despite having to put up with that doddering, puerile-minded Mayor. They're caring, over-achieving, and ever trying to do the right thing, despite the cost.



Quote:

So you like strong women who still accept their role as subserviant to men.  Ok.  That is pretty sexist.




No, they don't respect him because he's an man, but because he's the Mayor.  That's as it should be.

Quote:

I guess that in the sense feminism is against "injustice" I support it, but how exactly shouldst it be defined...?  Well, if you're against it, I hope you share my disgust at the constant cases of setting up masculinity to be beaten down like a helpless scarecrow on tv, and in movies. 



Who cares what happens in TV and movies, that is entertainment and fantasy only loosely based on the real world.  It is important to understand the difference.  Just out of curiosity can you provide an example because I'm not sure what you're talking about.




Buffy the Vampire Slayer; Brave; the rampant little-girl-who's-stronger'n-a-big-man joke. 

I don't know about you, but I think attitude's important, and teachers would overwhelmingly agree.  On just Buffy, I would point to the next-to-final episode where they had to make Spike and Xander look weak in order to make Willow strong (and out of character to boot).

Maybe you've not noticed, but in our society, we can generalize bad behavior in men whereas we can't do likewise with girls--see Brave.  The men were generalized in a way the Merida, the Queen, and the WItch weren't. 

Unlike in other movies, where the side character were fleshed out more in 360 degrees, they functioned as foils to further the feminist message.

Movies these days mock beauty queens, catty cheerleaders, and maybe even shopaholics, but they make blame sure not to imply that this is typical female behavior.  They don't take the same care in portraying jocks, though.  Nerds you have sympathy for, but they're not especially masculine, and that's why they're embraced as heroes, these days, ain't it?

Quote:

Show me feminism's got a better 'tude than I think it's got, and I think I'd reconsider my bias.



I don't really know what you're looking for as far as examples, I don't think feminism has a 'tude.  It is a concept, a political ideology seeking to create equality by ending the oppression of women.  You could say that radical feminists have gone too far, but anything can be taken to an extreme.  This does not negate the fact that there are countless instances where women are treated as subhuman by men, and it seems like radical feminism to you is women questioning the authority of men in any way.




I embrace the idea of social equality because you don't hafta be feminist to believe in it.  Here's a question: is anyone who truly believes the law should be blind to gender  a feminist?  I do, and that's why I'm anti-abortion.

Who cares if the kid comes out of your body or not?  Murder is murder, and I think, in your heart of hearts, you know this, even if you won't admit this, because to do so is inconvenient. You're really, in effect asking for special-case compassion, effectively invoking the sympathy card because you're women, and we're not.  Boo-hoo, and man up--deal with the kid growing inside you, instead of killing it.

You know I have great respect for every single woman that got raped, yet bore their rapist's baby?  Because they manned up, that's why--they took the harder task, and as such I'm proud of each and every one of them. Not out of respect for me, mind you, but life.

You'll probably think me sexist for this, but my assumptions are that killing a fetus is murder, and that basically everyone (including you) has a guilty conscience over this, that you won't admit.  Before you say "that ain't true," please spare me.  Instead, pray tell me if you think that my assumptions, if true, would justify my scorn for abortionists.  Fine--ya don't think they're true, but that t'weren't the question, was it?

Oh, and I think we're talking about two divergent topics, somehow.  Me, I'm railing against pop-cultural feminism, and you're railing against global injustice through a sexist lens.  Most of these outrages, and I mean outrages, could probably be railed against in non-gender-specific ways.  Yes, sex colors all, and is quite important, but we can go overboard. 

I'm not against communism because it wanted  utopia, but because it wanted a lot of other things along the way to say nothing of the abuses and the very nature of the utopia itself.  Feminism is much the same way for me, friend.

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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16528547 - 07/14/12 12:35 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, and I think we're talking about two divergent topics, somehow.  Me, I'm railing against pop-cultural feminism, and you're railing against global injustice through a sexist lens.




Yeah, I don't really keep up with TV anymore.

Quote:

Here's a question: is anyone who truly believes the law should be blind to gender  a feminist?  I do, and that's why I'm anti-abortion.



The laws are part of it but it is not only applied to law.  Feminism is about personal freedom in the broader sense, it is about not forcing people into gender roles set by the dumb apes that came before them.  We live in a male-dominated society, feminism adknowledges the suffering this causes and sees this as wrong. 

This is a conceptual thing that you could pick apart and find flaws in the logic.  Words are not static things and even "man" and "woman" mean different things to each person.  There are plenty of examples in life where women oppress and manipulate men, but we have to take in what we think is going on as a whole here and each make decisions as to what is right and wrong.

Quote:

You'll probably think me sexist for this, but my assumptions are that killing a fetus is murder, and that basically everyone (including you) has a guilty conscience over this, that you won't admit.



I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the subject of abortion, but abortion is not necessarily a feminist issue.  Some segments of society support abortion, this includes both men and women.  Because men do not carry children does not mean they can escape blame for any injustice towards these fetuses.

May I ask where you stand on the issue of birth control?

I think almost all unwanted pregnancies could be prevented if more people were educated on how to prevent unnecessary pregnancies and if it was more socially acceptable to discuss these things openly with people of all ages.  That is definitely the responsibility of both genders.  If abortion equates to murder then do you believe that both the mother and father of an aborted child are equally guilty of this murder?

Quote:

I'm not against communism because it wanted  utopia, but because it wanted a lot of other things along the way to say nothing of the abuses and the very nature of the utopia itself.  Feminism is much the same way for me, friend.



How has the liberation of women restricted your personal freedom?  What exactly are you so afraid of?

Edited by moonrockmushy (07/14/12 12:42 AM)

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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16550259 - 07/18/12 03:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Here's a question: is anyone who truly believes the law should be blind to gender  a feminist?  I do, and that's why I'm anti-abortion.



Quote:

The laws are part of it but it is not only applied to law.  Feminism is about personal freedom in the broader sense, it is about not forcing people into gender roles set by the dumb apes that came before them.  We live in a male-dominated society, feminism acknowledges the suffering this causes and sees this as wrong. 





That's the problem--feminism assumes that a male dominated society is in inherently wrong, and I don't see it.  It's that attitude which leads to persecution of masculinity in pop culture, but in the long run, it leads to neither male, nor female, happiness.

Women don't like insecure men, but what do you think feminism's raising, anyways?  Insecure men--and that's the problem.  You're equating masculine abuse with masculine domination, and there tossing the baby out with the bath water.

I could give a list of masculine abuses, but don't see the need.  Yes, polygamy's but, and if anyone is a justified feminist, it's the women coming out of that background, but when feminism rants against "male domination," it's too broad a term,  and obliges me to list specific grievances concerning feminism.

Quote:


This is a conceptual thing that you could pick apart and find flaws in the logic.  Words are not static things and even "man" and "woman" mean different things to each person.  There are plenty of examples in life where women oppress and manipulate men, but we have to take in what we think is going on as a whole here and each make decisions as to what is right and wrong.





Oh, I agree.  Feminism has concerns, and fair ones--it bothers me what's gone on in the Mulsim world, for instance.  Sharia law is disempowering, and our role in returning it to power in Iraq troubles me. 

Westernized, postmodern women in those cultures, though, can be all the same quite obnoxious, though, like that one that in the graphic novel, Persepolis.  Such dames don't make me want to apologize for being a man, but they do for me being a westerner.

Quote:

You'll probably think me sexist for this, but my assumptions are that killing a fetus is murder, and that basically everyone (including you) has a guilty conscience over this, that you won't admit.



I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the subject of abortion, but abortion is not necessarily a feminist issue.  Some segments of society support abortion, this includes both men and women.  Because men do not carry children does not mean they can escape blame for any injustice towards these fetuses.

May I ask where you stand on the issue of birth control?





As long as it's not abortion, dandy.

And as for male responsibility, I agree with things like alimony, I think it's fair, and don't have a problem with it.  I get a kick outta shotgun weddings, too.  Men who hafta be coerced into doing the right thing aren't much men, anywho, and don't hold sympathy their way in any event.

Oh, and the shotgun tradition originates in the Appalachians, a time and time and place far more male-dominated than mainstream America.

Quote:


I think almost all unwanted pregnancies could be prevented if more people were educated on how to prevent unnecessary pregnancies and if it was more socially acceptable to discuss these things openly with people of all ages.  That is definitely the responsibility of both genders.  If abortion equates to murder then do you believe that both the mother and father of an aborted child are equally guilty of this murder?





Sharp question, madam.  Sometimes the man demands it, even.  As a man, you can aid and abett murder by abortion via neglect, or else by active encouragement.  Since the kid is still in her body, the woman has to bear ultimate responsibility for the act, barring getting pushed down the stairs, or something, but the man has to own up to his actions, too.

Long live shot gun weddings, and alimony; if feminism wants to complain about deadbeat dads, well, I'm in total lockstep.

Quote:

I'm not against communism because it wanted  utopia, but because it wanted a lot of other things along the way to say nothing of the abuses and the very nature of the utopia itself.  Feminism is much the same way for me, friend.



How has the liberation of women restricted your personal freedom?  What exactly are you so afraid of?




"Personal freedom" is the wrong term, friend; just because we live in a free society doesn't mean we don't need to fear politital correctness, or be subject, sometimes more subtly than others, to indoctrination in pop culture.  I don't fear it per se, but I hate it, because it forces an "us vs. them" view of gender.  Hopefully, that nuance makes sense.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16553705 - 07/19/12 09:39 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noitartst said:
I'm currently emotionally apathetic, unemployed, and 33 years old.  I used to be depressed, but psychedelics cured me.  Trouble is, I'm apathetic, and therefore umotivated.





You seem to lack self-insight. For someone who is supposed to be apathetic, you seem a whole lot interested in a bunch of things. And for someone who is supposed to be unmotivated, you seem pretty motivated to argue, motivated to participate in this thread, motivated to write your blog, and motivated to encourage people to read your blog. But I suppose none of that counts because otherwise you'd be shown to be a liar or very confused or ill informed when it comes to those claims of being apathetic and unmotivated. Heck, what excuse could you use to avoid doing shit you don't want to do if you can't say you're apathetic and unmotivated anymore?!


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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Mufungo]
    #16556224 - 07/19/12 07:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

Noitartst said:
I'm currently emotionally apathetic, unemployed, and 33 years old.  I used to be depressed, but psychedelics cured me.  Trouble is, I'm apathetic, and therefore umotivated.





You seem to lack self-insight. For someone who is supposed to be apathetic, you seem a whole lot interested in a bunch of things. And for someone who is supposed to be unmotivated, you seem pretty motivated to argue, motivated to participate in this thread, motivated to write your blog, and motivated to encourage people to read your blog. But I suppose none of that counts because otherwise you'd be shown to be a liar or very confused or ill informed when it comes to those claims of being apathetic and unmotivated. Heck, what excuse could you use to avoid doing shit you don't want to do if you can't say you're apathetic and unmotivated anymore?!




"Seem to lack selfi-insight."  Well, I've now got me an interface, and I'm seeing him again tomorrow, and that seems to be working, but I used to be very talkative, and now, not so much.  I am moving forward, but I'm just not feeling it from within, as I'd like to. 

Creativity's stymied, and it's a drag.  zI ain't depressed, too, but things aren't quite jiving, yet.

Thing is, without my interface, I tend to go sideways.  I need more immersion, and that's what I seek--as of now, things are too tepid.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16565095 - 07/21/12 07:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That's the problem--feminism assumes that a male dominated society is in inherently wrong, and I don't see it.  It's that attitude which leads to persecution of masculinity in pop culture, but in the long run, it leads to neither male, nor female, happiness.




Feminism recognizes a male dominated society and its aim is gender equality, not feminine domination.  It encompasses tons of ideas and is part of a larger human rights movement. 

I'm sure you could find examples of dominant women who use feminism as a cover for an agenda which would seek to oppress men.  You can also think that Xena the Warrior Princess is not a fitting stereotype for women, but women continue to be raped at alarming rates, are the main victim of sex slavery, and in non-western cultures they can have little or no legal rights as individuals.  What goes on in entertainment rarely depicts some of the terrible realities of violence against women.  Maybe this is indicative of some agenda that downplays sexual assault, but I think it is just fantasy that doesn't need to represent the real world.

Feminism has played a huge role in allowing women to better their lives historically.  To write it off entirely is to say that women shouldn't vote, earn their own living, or have the opportunity to live as individuals.  Does some part of me want absolute control over women?  Hell yes, I'd like absolute control over the entire universe.  Moreso my conscience tells me that it is wrong to force my will on any living thing in a way that causes it suffering. 

I prioritize the reduction of human suffering over maintaining the status quo, so your "thats just the way it is" attutide won't work here.  Even though the capability exists in me, I don't pick on people who are smaller than me, and I don't tell someone what their role is in life because I think I am smarter than them.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16565103 - 07/21/12 07:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sharp question, madam.




Oh and I'm a man, not a madam :penis:

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16574029 - 07/23/12 01:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

That's the problem--feminism assumes that a male dominated society is in inherently wrong, and I don't see it.  It's that attitude which leads to persecution of masculinity in pop culture, but in the long run, it leads to neither male, nor female, happiness.




Feminism recognizes a male dominated society and its aim is gender equality, not feminine domination.  It encompasses tons of ideas and is part of a larger human rights movement. 

I'm sure you could find examples of dominant women who use feminism as a cover for an agenda which would seek to oppress men.  You can also think that Xena the Warrior Princess is not a fitting stereotype for women, but women continue to be raped at alarming rates, are the main victim of sex slavery, and in non-western cultures they can have little or no legal rights as individuals.  What goes on in entertainment rarely depicts some of the terrible realities of violence against women.  Maybe this is indicative of some agenda that downplays sexual assault, but I think it is just fantasy that doesn't need to represent the real world.

Feminism has played a huge role in allowing women to better their lives historically.  To write it off entirely is to say that women shouldn't vote, earn their own living, or have the opportunity to live as individuals.  Does some part of me want absolute control over women?  Hell yes, I'd like absolute control over the entire universe.  Moreso my conscience tells me that it is wrong to force my will on any living thing in a way that causes it suffering. 

I prioritize the reduction of human suffering over maintaining the status quo, so your "thats just the way it is" attutide won't work here.  Even though the capability exists in me, I don't pick on people who are smaller than me, and I don't tell someone what their role is in life because I think I am smarter than them.




What you ascribe to feminism, I attach to progress in general, nigh-inevitable in some cases, with feminism not truly understanding the conservative mind.  If your definition of feminism were correct, I'd be obliged to agree with you, but I don't.  I'm against a certain attitude, not prevention of masculine abuses. 

Maybe, if feminism distanced itself from the attitudes I described, I'd distance in my mind feminism from effective hatred of masculinity.  You've not really done that; you simply aren't interested in such issues, and that's where those portrayals, I think, crop up.

I'm simply asking for an adjustment, not a wholesale trurnabout, you know.  If feminism truly isn't as I define it, but as you do, good, but I 'd suggest you call yourself somethin' else, given the missteps committed in your name.

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

Sharp question, madam.




Oh and I'm a man, not a madam :penis:




My condolences, sir.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16574407 - 07/23/12 02:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What you ascribe to feminism, I attach to progress in general, nigh-inevitable in some cases, with feminism not truly understanding the conservative mind.  If your definition of feminism were correct, I'd be obliged to agree with you, but I don't.  I'm against a certain attitude, not prevention of masculine abuses. 

Maybe, if feminism distanced itself from the attitudes I described, I'd distance in my mind feminism from effective hatred of masculinity.  You've not really done that; you simply aren't interested in such issues, and that's where those portrayals, I think, crop up.

I'm simply asking for an adjustment, not a wholesale trurnabout, you know.  If feminism truly isn't as I define it, but as you do, good, but I 'd suggest you call yourself somethin' else, given the missteps committed in your name.




Conservatives are the enemy of progress.  Conservatives have had nothing to do with improving anyones life ever because they fear change and are happy with the status quo.  The whole "family values" and "natural order" concepts are catchphrases used to describe an idealized situation that only exists in the conservative mind.  Leading conservatives tend to be secular, small-minded, and emotionally challenged.  Many conservatives will preach against homosexuality then go and have sex with men.  Conservatives often adhere to pacifist religions while supporting violence and war.  Conservatives gain power through deception and underhanded manipulation of the poor and uneducated. 

All these statements are connotations that I attach to the work conservative.  Do you know the difference between a connotation and a denotation?  The attitude you percieve from feminism has to do with the negative connotations you place on the word, not the literal definition.

Quote:


Google definition of feminism:

Noun:

The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.




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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16574691 - 07/23/12 03:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Well, you take umbrage at the negative connotations of conservatism, as I feminism; on such we are equal.

I deem myself conservative ,but at the same time openly admit that there's a blame lot going on under its banner that I don't approve of.

Can you say likewise about feminism?  Given your apparent disowning of all my criticisms leveled against I think not.
Oh, and if you want me to praise Susan B. Anthony, I will.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16575069 - 07/23/12 04:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No, don't praise anybody.  All I'm asking is that you renounce patriarchy and admit that it causes much more suffering than challenges to your personal ideal of masculinity and male dominance.

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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16576854 - 07/23/12 09:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I read through your blog. You talk about the merits of arguing, without actually arguing anything at all. It's kind of strange.


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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: Playful Hate]
    #16579887 - 07/24/12 01:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Not really, friend.  I've suffered a world of hurt from cowards and stonewallers, and want to start up from a more respectful place, making clear what the boundaries are. 

Asking a question, crafting it, anticipating a response, takes energy, and when I get fired up, I'll expend hours compulsively.  Don't talk to me about my motives, feelings, whatever--they're irrelevant to the dialog, and I ain't gonna talk of them--I'll forge a shared frame, and then let's see you battle on out of it instead of whinin' bout my tone and where I'm taking you--carpe diem, my man.

Talking like I've been to Moonrockmushy about feminism, it done don't take no energy, but it doesn't fire me up, either.  This is me toleratin' tepid, and it's lame.

There was one forum online that I corresponded on, last year, now defunct, and I did cut loose, for which I was labeled unseasonably arrogant.  I followed the Golden Rule, didn't ask anything I'd not ask of myself, merely asked them to answer the questions according the questions, and they dubbed me ego-maniacal. 

Interesting thing is, no one in my personal life thinks that about me.  They think I'm weird, crazy, and obsessive (I am), but not an egotist, and I've argued with them, too.  I can't say for certain, as none has tested me, really, but I think I have a small ego, because this system of mine is an open season on pride, and if I had a problem gettin' whaled on, I'd never have constructed it.

Were I able, I'd show you the link to it--the thread shows what I'm all about, basically.

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16580038 - 07/24/12 02:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
No, don't praise anybody.  All I'm asking is that you renounce patriarchy and admit that it causes much more suffering than challenges to your personal ideal of masculinity and male dominance.




Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, were patriarchal, but how far do you want to go?  You seem to think they were wrong due to their patriarchal styles of leadership, but me, I find them wrong because they ran cults. 

Oh, and how do you differentiate between male leadership, and male leadership that's patriarchal?  I trust you're not saying all male leaders be patriarchs, per se.

Oh, and friend, while idealizing feminism in your definition of it, don't you see how you're vilifying conservatism whenst defining it? 

Conservatism, at its best, is bewaring of change hailed as "progress."  "Progress," in its earnestness, has lost its head a many points, not the least the French Revolution, and whilst conservative have made mistakes too, their errors don't compare in terms of ink to the spectacular flameouts of liberals. 

Conservatives are not as dumb, or primitive, as our rhetoric suggests. My grandfather, for instance, well, into his seventies and eighties, kept abreast of VCR and computer technology.  Why?  Well, he was genuinely interested in progress, just not so sure of the social variety, even as he in his way flexed to the times.  (My family was none too sure in his choice of sitcoms, you know.)

Oh, and if you wanna talk about hypocrisy, I'd like to talk about Hillary standing by her man, and once again affirming that tears are a girl's greatest power.

Edited by Noitartst (07/24/12 02:02 PM)

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: Noitartst]
    #16580694 - 07/24/12 03:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, were patriarchal, but how far do you want to go?  You seem to think they were wrong due to their patriarchal styles of leadership, but me, I find them wrong because they ran cults. 




There is no real line between cults, government organizations, and religions for me.  All are authority structures imposed by a chosen individual or group within a population.  When an individual is forced to live a certain way due to the physical threat or psychological manipulations of a single person or small group, I have a problem.

I'll say that I prefer Charles Manson to his contemporary cult leader Richard Nixon.  Who caused more deaths? 

There are conservative feminists, the two ideals are not mutually exclusive.  Hillary Clinton does not need to represent women or feminists.  She is an individual who deserves to be measured on her individual merits.  I don't stand by Hillary, she is a politician and too conservative by my standards.  However, I don't think her power is derived from her ability to evoke sympathy based on her gender.  She has devoted her life to what she does and showed much more perseverence and determination than most of the men I've met.  I certainly don't care about her marriage or personal life, that is none of my business.

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Re: I'm Looking for Someone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16584621 - 07/25/12 07:05 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Why should someone try to make you not apathetic?

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Re: I'm Looking for SOmeone to Argue With [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #16592622 - 07/26/12 01:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, were patriarchal, but how far do you want to go?  You seem to think they were wrong due to their patriarchal styles of leadership, but me, I find them wrong because they ran cults. 




There is no real line between cults, government organizations, and religions for me.  All are authority structures imposed by a chosen individual or group within a population.  When an individual is forced to live a certain way due to the physical threat or psychological manipulations of a single person or small group, I have a problem.

I'll say that I prefer Charles Manson to his contemporary cult leader Richard Nixon.  Who caused more deaths? 

There are conservative feminists, the two ideals are not mutually exclusive.  Hillary Clinton does not need to represent women or feminists.  She is an individual who deserves to be measured on her individual merits.  I don't stand by Hillary, she is a politician and too conservative by my standards.  However, I don't think her power is derived from her ability to evoke sympathy based on her gender.  She has devoted her life to what she does and showed much more perseverence and determination than most of the men I've met.  I certainly don't care about her marriage or personal life, that is none of my business.



Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:

Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, were patriarchal, but how far do you want to go?  You seem to think they were wrong due to their patriarchal styles of leadership, but me, I find them wrong because they ran cults. 




There is no real line between cults, government organizations, and religions for me.  All are authority structures imposed by a chosen individual or group within a population.  When an individual is forced to live a certain way due to the physical threat or psychological manipulations of a single person or small group, I have a problem.

I'll say that I prefer Charles Manson to his contemporary cult leader Richard Nixon.  Who caused more deaths? 




Well, I'd say Lyndon Johnson caused far more deaths than Nixon, involving us in Vietnam, like he did. I'd wager he fits your definition as a cult leader, too, wouldn't he, despite being a liberal?

Oh, and I noticed you didn't respond to what conservatism at its best does, and it's about distrusting what comes in the name of progress really is. 

Once upon a time, liberals touted communism as "progress," but not so muich today, to say the least.  The conservative distrust of "progress" was borne out, wouldn't you say?

You claim that conservativism is against progress, but if it prevents society from swerving down radical, destructive detours that do more harm than good, I'd say that's a boon for progress in the long run. 

Don't chuck the baby with the bath water, is all I'm saying.

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