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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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 Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight  [Re: somebodyelse]
#1645764 - 06/19/03 05:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
somebodyelse said:
You didn't mention schools before. Just wondered if you had any more to add.
Actually I did.
"education aid"
Quote:
Well, I'd move.
I'd rather stay and fight.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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 somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1645765 - 06/19/03 05:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree with that. much. I'd be against the cakes though.
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Actually you mentioned "education aid" as one to be removed. ("All but....")
Fight who?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1645773 - 06/19/03 05:59 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
somebodyelse said:
Actually you mentioned "education aid" as one to be removed. ("All but....")
Fight who?
Politicians who want to spend my money on bullshit. That's getting harder though.
Education aid is schools.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/19/03 05:59 PM)
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Welfare, social security, medicare, medicaid, education aid, actually to make this faster, all but roads, military, courts.
vs
Quote:
How about schools? No government funding?
Not from the feds. State funded only.
vs
Quote:
You didn't mention schools before. Just wondered if you had any more to add.
Actually I did.
"education aid"
What you're saying is that feds should not fund schools but states should? I don't understand your responses given my original q. Just wanted to make this clear.
Don't worry about the politicians. Norquist is one of the most powerful people in DC right now. You guys are winning! HEIL!
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
I have no problem banning imports from countries who do not play on the same field.
Why not allow us to get cheap foreign taxpayer funded foods? If our farms can't compete then we should allow resources to be shifted (through the free market of course) to things we can more easily produce.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: z@z.com]
#1645795 - 06/19/03 06:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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[quote[
Why not allow us to get cheap foreign taxpayer funded foods? If our farms can't compete then we should allow resources to be shifted (through the free market of course) to things we can more easily produce.
What if the foreign countries you are relying on for food (having destroyed your own sector as a result) suddenly go bankrupt, dissolve into civil war, whatever? Then you'd be fucked.
(back later, getting kicked off the computer.)
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 29 minutes, 33 seconds
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: z@z.com]
#1645801 - 06/19/03 06:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not sure why anyone would want to artificially inflate food prices like that.
Consumers have as much rights as business.
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This space for rent
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1647810 - 06/20/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Or, what is the minimum set of services that you'd like the government to provide?
everything but a police force which serves only to enfore laws against REAL crimes, and a military which serves only to defend america, not police the world. that plus courts, jails, and roads. the roads would be payed for with gas taxes, not taxes on income.
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
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Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648057 - 06/20/03 12:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree with paying for roads with gas taxes. We're far too wasteful of our limited resources - perhaps a price hike would slow consumption/add motivation to increase efficiency.
And MM - schools? Colleges?
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1648066 - 06/20/03 12:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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schools and colleges could be run more effectively and more fairly by the private sector.
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
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Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648081 - 06/20/03 12:24 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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What about those who can't afford to pay for education?
How to you guard against biased brainwashing education? (Not that the government run schools don't do this, but nevertheless the private sector would be more difficult to regulare.)
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1648103 - 06/20/03 12:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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What about those who can't afford to pay for education?
none of my peers at college can 'afford' to pay for it. we're all on loans that we've taken out which we will some day repay.
How to you guard against biased brainwashing education
the best way would be to get the government out of the business of 'education'. hell, americas public schools don't educate, they indoctrinate. how much 'brainwashing' goes on in non-government funded colleges?
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648124 - 06/20/03 12:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
none of my peers at college can 'afford' to pay for it. we're all on loans that we've taken out which we will some day repay.
So what if you wish to learn a non-vocational subject which will not pay you megabucks in the future? What if you decide you can't afford to rack up those loans? Isn't it a precise coincidence that Americans do business degrees (where they have to pay back their loans) far more often than Europeans (many of whom get free University education). Or that Liberal Arts colleges are stereotypically attended by rich white kids?
Quote:
the best way would be to get the government out of the business of 'education'. hell, americas public schools don't educate, they indoctrinate. how much 'brainwashing' goes on in non-government funded colleges?
Oh, college level I'm not concerned about. Public schools, elementary and high, are when the kids minds are most "vulnerable" -- if you're being educated by a for-profit company, what's to say that partnerships won't be entered into all over the place? ("We'll pay you $1million to show the kids that this credit card has the best APR").
Edited by somebodyelse (06/20/03 12:38 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1648177 - 06/20/03 12:53 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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So what if you wish to learn a non-vocational subject which will not pay you megabucks in the future?
if you don't think you'll be able to pay back your loans with a degree in that field, then you don't go for that degree. this in in time simultaneously creates a higher demand, and consequently, higher pay for people in that field, as well as lower demand for the degree, and a lesser cost for it, until the price of the education, the number of people willing to pay for that education, and the number of people willing to pay people with that education all balance out beautifully.
the unhindered exchange of goods and services, free from forceful intervention, is a natural system, and balances itself accordingly.
What if you decide you can't afford to rack up those loans?
see above.
Public schools, elementary and high, are when the kids minds are most "vulnerable" -- if you're being educated by a for-profit company, what's to say that partnerships won't be entered into all over the place? ("We'll pay you $1million to show the kids that this credit card has the best APR").
a very good point. if schools were privately owned and operated, they would be governed by the same sort of free market competition as the rest of the private sector. if a school had a reputation of offering a poor education (either because it stressed advertizing over fact; or any host of reasons), then it would see enrollment drop and profits slip. this is not good business.
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648224 - 06/20/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
if you don't think you'll be able to pay back your loans with a degree in that field, then you don't go for that degree. this in in time simultaneously creates a higher demand, and consequently, higher pay for people in that field, as well as lower demand for the degree, and a lesser cost for it, until the price of the education, the number of people willing to pay for that education, and the number of people willing to pay people with that education all balance out beautifully.
Oh that's right - we're all just cogs in a market machine. Silly me, there I was thinking we were individuals with a level playing field.
Quote:
. if a school had a reputation of offering a poor education (either because it stressed advertizing over fact; or any host of reasons), then it would see enrollment drop and profits slip. this is not good business.
True, but just look at Enron, Worldcom, etc, for high profile cases of companies succesfully carrying on corruption without anybody noticing for years. Sure, *their* chops have been (marginally) busted, but I wouldn't want to take this sort of chance with the minds of kids.
And what about inbuilt biasing? Market tends towards conglomeration, so sooner or later these educational companies will be owned by NewCorp, Viacom, etc. Hey kids, here's a little bit of right wing ideology thrown in to the history lesson. Or, hey kids, fuck blue collar, communications is really the only industry to be in. Yes, the parents could trace the ownership of their school, find out the ideologies it uses, etc - but this would necessitate a level and honesty of public accountability (and easy access to information)that we don't have today. I mean, e.g. how many people know that the company who makes their cigarettes also makes DU munitions?
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1648263 - 06/20/03 01:26 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh that's right - we're all just cogs in a market machine. Silly me, there I was thinking we were individuals with a level playing field.
the rules that govern a free market are similar to the ones that govern biology, physics, and especially ecology. it's just natural man.
the system you are talking about involves men with guns going around and taking money from people in order to pay for other people's education. this is not natural.
True, but just look at Enron, Worldcom, etc, for high profile cases of companies succesfully carrying on corruption without anybody noticing for years. Sure, *their* chops have been (marginally) busted, but I wouldn't want to take this sort of chance with the minds of kids.
the difference is that Enron's customers had no way of knowing what was going on behind closed doors. when my kid comes home from school everyday talking nonsense and praising a credit card company, i'm probably going to get him a new school.
as it is right now, kids are subjected to all kinds of indocrination and there's nothing concerned parents can do about it except send their child to a private school and pay for two educations instead of one.
if schools were run by the private sector, there would be less, not more indoctrination, and there is no reason why this sort of 'brainwashing' you speak of should occur any more frequently in free market K-12 schools as it does in free market universities.
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somebodyelse
In_Is_Out
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648560 - 06/20/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
the rules that govern a free market are similar to the ones that govern biology, physics, and especially ecology. it's just natural man.
Interesting comment. I'll create a new thread.
Quote:
the system you are talking about involves men with guns going around and taking money from people in order to pay for other people's education. this is not natural.
That's true. But the theory behind socialized services is that by paying to enrich your society, you're benefiting yourself and your offspring. e.g. "Every" kid who is educated to college level improves the "quality" of the market potential of your country.
Quote:
f schools were run by the private sector, there would be less, not more indoctrination, and there is no reason why this sort of 'brainwashing' you speak of should occur any more frequently in free market K-12 schools as it does in free market universities.
You assume that the parents would be able to detect the indoctrination. Some, sure - but how many parents actually give a shit what their kids learn in school?
And if the school sector got crunched by consolidation, such that there were only three or four major corporations who ran 90% of the schools, then what if they all soak the kids in commercials, revisionist history, etc? Would you want Rupert Murdoch deciding your child's syllabus?
And how about this:- if schools are all private, then how are you going to prevent parents from refusing to educate their kids? If the parents (or kids) have to pay for their education, then you can't make it mandatory to educate your children. American literacy is already appalling...your proposed situation would regress us still further. Child labor would also reappear (I'm gonna keep my boy home and work him on the farm.)
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: somebodyelse]
#1648645 - 06/20/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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And how about this:- if schools are all private, then how are you going to prevent parents from refusing to educate their kids? If the parents (or kids) have to pay for their education, then you can't make it mandatory to educate your children. American literacy is already appalling...your proposed situation would regress us still further. Child labor would also reappear (I'm gonna keep my boy home and work him on the farm.)
you could make it mandatory to educate your children. it's mandatory to feed them and house them. it's mandatory to provide medical service for them when they need it. it can also be mandatory to educate them.
but education is different because it's not a necessity of life. regardless, this opens up a whole new area of government intervention. what does the government do when you don't take care of your kid? punishing you doesn't help them....
this does create problems... hmmmm...
we humans tend to forget that we are just animals, and as such, some of us will die of starvation, exposure, or illness. some of us will not be educated. some of us will be born to parents who neglect us and we may die before reaching adulthood.
still, is there any difference between a parent killing their child through intent or through neglect? i think not.
but how does a system punish parents for neglecting their children in such a way that does some good for the children?
this talk of education may have brought us back to the original question of this thread. some on this board, including myself, would say that government services should be restricted to cops, courts, and military (and possibly roads)... but what about the kids?
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Anonymous
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Re: Norquist's Nazi Tax Fight [Re: ]
#1648745 - 06/20/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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bump. above post edited.
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