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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16573211 - 07/23/12 09:57 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
actually there are some extremists who claim that the ruling class are all psychopaths. it goes to show that you can apply mental illnesses to just about anything. it's funny that you don't get these kinds of folk diagnoses with a real disease. imagine someone claiming the ruling class has athletes foot and that's why they are killing thousands in poor countries. what is really a matter of ethical debate is expressed in the manner which is supported by the elite, namely through the mental illness myth. you can see a similar expression of dissatisfaction in indigenous villages in south america where the ruling elites greed is explained through the local myths they believe in. it's funny how us in the west say we are so devoid of myths and yet they are all around us.



:thumbup:
Seems it comes from inbreeding and the very limited set of experiences they are exposed to, as 'leaders of a system', which roots stretch down thousands of years...
Someone should do a study on them about their 'limited' brain functions :grin:

Edited by BlueCoyote (07/23/12 10:02 AM)

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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: zzripz]
    #16573607 - 07/23/12 11:53 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
i never said i trust them, in fact i think most doctors are full of shit and in it for the kickbacks. I think most people are missing the point however, if it is in the DSM then by definition it is a mental illness. Are people extremely overdiagnosed? yes. Is it is a corruptable and biased system? of course. But are there certain mental illness's that can be measured in a physical sense just as easily as a broken leg? yes. a broken leg cannot be left up to opinion. Neither can multiple personality disorder when each "personality" has a unique mri scan that should only be different between people.




So let me break what you say down to the essential points--for me: " I never said I trust them" [psychiatrists]; "Are people extremely over-diagnosed? yes"; "Is it corruptable and biased system? of course"

AFTER all that which I agree with, you then claim: "But are there certain mental illness's that can be measured in a physical sense just as easily as a broken leg? yes." And with that statement you again support their corruption. Why? because they simple cannot measure mental illness, and yet because they can't can pretend to, and this is why 'some people are 'over-diagnosed'. There are no medical tests, and thus it is subjective. How could you 'over-diagnoses' for heart disease, lung cancer, and proper physical diseases. There would be medical tests to show who has it, how bad, and who has been misdiagnosed.


Also look, we are living in an insane world, and by the use of that term I am not contradicting myself because I do not mean it in the way I am exposing as myth. I don't mean insane as it is a disease of the brain. No, it is psychological. In this world there is warmongering going on where innocent people and children are murdered in their thousands, and this adds up to millions, and we have ecocide going on where the ruling mindsets only care for profits. is THAT brain disease would you say? If so, where are the shrinks protesting THAT 'mental illness'?? As it is very very serious, right? get me?



just because the medical system is corruptable doesnt mean all diagnosis is BS. it seems to me by reading this thread that its an all or nothing belief, doctors are voodoo witch doctors, or they are absolutelty right. it is possible that they can get diagnosis correct. and there are some mental illnesses (not all, only a few) that can be traced back to certain gene deffects or brain damage, or even measured hormone defincencies.

And contraty to what you said physical ailments CAN be overdiagnosed. my aunt was recently diagnosed with breast cancer... according to some doctors, others told her that its not cancerous and its just a growth, others have said that it requires immediate surgery and radiation, others say she would be crazy to do that because its not even technically cancerous.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: psyconaught]
    #16575653 - 07/23/12 05:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

it seems to me by reading this thread that its an all or nothing belief, doctors are voodoo witch doctors, or they are absolutelty right.

no, that's just how your reading it. i don't have a problem with most pathologists, general practitioners etc. we are talking about psychiatry. they are a very special bunch of witch doctors.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16575895 - 07/23/12 06:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i don't have a problem with most pathologists, general practitioners

Then you're not paying attention. Most likely because you're young and don't need them much.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineThe_Aviator
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16576767 - 07/23/12 09:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

My girlfriend is pursuing a job in psychiatry and she currently volunteers in the geriatric psych ward (people with dementia mostly). Believe what you all want, but I think that she has helped a lot of people even though she isn't fully trained yet. Probably a lot more people than most of you have helped. And I have known some really good psychiatrists that have really helped friends and family.

There is a simple solution to all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy. And that is to not patronize them. Go your all-natural way or visit some private clinic that you have researched. Don't criticize the people that use it because a lot really do benefit...


--------------------

Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself."
Being and Nothingness
Easy no-nausea hbwr tek
Phish videos and discussion!

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OfflineMemories
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Posts: 10,484
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: The_Aviator]
    #16576780 - 07/23/12 09:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:monkeydance:

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: The_Aviator]
    #16576826 - 07/23/12 09:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
My girlfriend is pursuing a job in psychiatry and she currently volunteers in the geriatric psych ward (people with dementia mostly). Believe what you all want, but I think that she has helped a lot of people even though she isn't fully trained yet. Probably a lot more people than most of you have helped. And I have known some really good psychiatrists that have really helped friends and family.

There is a simple solution to all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy. And that is to not patronize them. Go your all-natural way or visit some private clinic that you have researched. Don't criticize the people that use it because a lot really do benefit...




how about you read the whole thread before you pitch in with a whole bunch of unfounded ideas about who believes what.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineThe_Aviator
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #16577186 - 07/23/12 10:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

The_Aviator said:
My girlfriend is pursuing a job in psychiatry and she currently volunteers in the geriatric psych ward (people with dementia mostly). Believe what you all want, but I think that she has helped a lot of people even though she isn't fully trained yet. Probably a lot more people than most of you have helped. And I have known some really good psychiatrists that have really helped friends and family.

There is a simple solution to all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy. And that is to not patronize them. Go your all-natural way or visit some private clinic that you have researched. Don't criticize the people that use it because a lot really do benefit...




how about you read the whole thread before you pitch in with a whole bunch of unfounded ideas about who believes what.



I did read the whole thing, and I watched the videos people have posted. And I didn't even say who believes what.


--------------------

Sartre on conciousness: "a being such that in its being, its being is in question in so far as this being implies a being other than itself."
Being and Nothingness
Easy no-nausea hbwr tek
Phish videos and discussion!

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: The_Aviator]
    #16577675 - 07/23/12 11:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy

Go your all-natural way


what do ya call this?

Probably a lot more people than most of you have helped

this statement is also pretty silly. what standard are you measuring us against? does helping friends move house count? do people who choose not to help others get an opinion?

also i don't think anyone has said that people don't benefit from psychiatry. what i am saying and what i have been reading from some others is that psychiatry is much more like religion than science. i don't think anyone is claiming we should get rid of psychiatry. personally i think that if someone wants to see a psychiatrist that's great, but i think we should understand that this person would probably be treated just as well by a witch doctor or priest.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
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Posts: 17,582
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16577851 - 07/24/12 12:26 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy
i think we should understand that this person would probably be treated just as well by a witch doctor or priest.




Utter nonsense.

How could you possibly claim that?

There are a number of treatments that show marked improvement.  We used to get crazies in the place I worked all the time.  The schizophrenics, especially, would improve markedly in a few days and be able to go home.  Many of these people wouldn't be able to even function coherently, yet after being medicated you wouldn't be able to tell their was anything wrong with them.

You have not clearly expressed your claim, and this quibbling over definitions as occurs all the time is a problem when people are using nonstandard definitions.  If your going to talk about a disease, at least make sure you know what one is.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: johnm214]
    #16577969 - 07/24/12 01:05 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

imo the reason the schizophrenics got better at the place you worked was because they were away from the people in their life's that make them crazy. do you think a witch doctor or priest couldn't do the same thing? in many ways a witch doctor or priest is much better because they give explicit spiritual advice to their patients/flock rather than the watered down spiritualism that's used by many psychologists to treat mental illness. as i've said before drugs are likely to make anyone feel better whether they have a mental illness or not. as for definitions, i have already stated multiple times my definition of a real disease and a mental illness. unfortunately life doesn't give way to the almighty dictionary, so we are going to have to use some non-standard definitions every now and then.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16578092 - 07/24/12 01:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The premise is basically rehashed from the Wayseer Manifesto.

Quote:


"Diagnosed with a disorder? That is just societies way to deny it's own illness by pointing the finger at you"






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Offlinezzripz
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: teknix]
    #16578146 - 07/24/12 02:21 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

although I can dig some of the video of course, the problem I have with it overall is that the ones who are into America's 'manifest destiny' could say 'yeahhh thats us!'--the ones who dropped the nuclear bombs on hundreds of thousands of human beings and other species could say 'yeah that's us!' Any tyrants and their empire building could feel they are doing that---ie., anyone who thinks they can just do what the hell they like and not have responsibility for others, including other species and nature in general

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16578165 - 07/24/12 02:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
imo the reason the schizophrenics got better at the place you worked was because they were away from the people in their life's that make them crazy.




Except the people who don't take the psych meds didn't get better and were either just staying crazy or were sedated crazy (if they'd take sedatives, which some would).

Quote:

do you think a witch doctor or priest couldn't do the same thing?




If they had the medicine, yes.  If not, no.


Quote:


in many ways a witch doctor or priest is much better because they give explicit spiritual advice to their patients/flock rather than the watered down spiritualism that's used by many psychologists to treat mental illness.




Those people didn't get any psychological treatment for the duration unless they could afford to bring in their own quacks.  Most didn't/couldn't.

Psychologists are essentially useless for such things anyways.

Quote:

unfortunately life doesn't give way to the almighty dictionary, so we are going to have to use some non-standard definitions every now and then.




A dictionary?  A dictionary reports the way words are used, not what terms of art mean in particular fields.  If your using dictionary definitions then your obviously confusing matters.

If you want to make up your own terminology, fine.  Just don't coopt terms of art used in particular fields and then confuse everybody by using them when discussing that field.

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: johnm214]
    #16578192 - 07/24/12 02:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

sorry, i'm not smart enough to make up new words so if you wanna do it that's fine. otherwise i'll just continue. also, you seem to think that it is just the drugs that makes these people feel better. that may be true, but all that proves is that drugs make some people feel better. i could have told you that :shrug: imo everyone should have access to these drugs so they can skip the labels and go straight to what they want.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: psyconaught]
    #16578230 - 07/24/12 02:58 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:

just because the medical system is corruptable doesnt mean all diagnosis is BS. it seems to me by reading this thread that its an all or nothing belief, doctors are voodoo witch doctors, or they are absolutelty right. it is possible that they can get diagnosis correct. and there are some mental illnesses (not all, only a few) that can be traced back to certain gene deffects or brain damage, or even measured hormone defincencies.




Where is the compensation for all the harm they have done to people, including children, and their loved ones over their time as an establishment...? Their organization --as part of the medical establishment--are supposed to have the psychiatrists sign a document called the Hippocratic Oath which states as its first commandment, 'First, Do No Harm'.
IF they did have to compensate for all the harm they have done they would cease to be, because they would have no money left, and would be bankrupt and in massive debt!

Where are these 'mental illnesses' you keep talking about that are 'testable'? How do you know this? Are you a doctor? IF there is mental illness due to brain or gene damage then this has to be testable, and if proven to be biologicalit will then be out of the psychiatrists hands and will be referred to the appropriate proper medial department, but if there ARE no medical tests then there isn't --it is simple as that.

Quote:

And contrary to what you said physical ailments CAN be overdiagnosed. my aunt was recently diagnosed with breast cancer... according to some doctors, others told her that its not cancerous and its just a growth, others have said that it requires immediate surgery and radiation, others say she would be crazy to do that because its not even technically cancerous.




Yes, of course there are mistakes in allopathic medicine, but this subject is complex enough without going into all that. But the thing is that the mistakes are medically testable/measurable. For example people can have a second or third diagnosis with other doctors. But when someone goes to the doctor telling her/him they are depressed, most likely the doctor now will push 'psychiatric medication' on them:

Quote:

A recent study on antidepressants has shown that the drugs have some serious side effects: those taking certain prescriptions could lose their sex drive. It sounds like the whole nation’s sexuality is under a threat as, according to the statistics, one in ten Americans takes antidepressants. And it’s not only libido people are losing – many of these meds induce anxiety and double the risk of suicide. Psychologist and author Bruce Levine joins RT’s Liz Wahl to discuss the issue.




America - the antidepressant nation?



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Loc: Americas
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: blingbling]
    #16578273 - 07/24/12 03:22 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
but all that proves is that drugs make some people feel better. i could have told you that :shrug: imo everyone should have access to these drugs so they can skip the labels and go straight to what they want.





Well, I agree completely with that, but I think psychiatrists are helpful to recomend drugs to people such as I mentioned.  With outpatients, a lot of them may or may not benefit from their run in with the docs- a lot of times it seems like people fall into self pity when their diagnosed and treated, and rely on the drugs and counslers to do the work for them in improving their life.

But there are, as you say, people who benefit from drugs, and amongst those are a reasonably well defined group who are mentally ill.  The schizos are a good example.  People with moderate to severe afflictions can litterally transform into unmangable wackos and be transformed with the drugs into reasonable people (not sedated wackos, but normal people). 

How, then, does mental illness not exist?  These people have problems with thinking, planning, and behaving, and its treatable.

Quote:

blingbling said:
sorry, i'm not smart enough to make up new words so if you wanna do it that's fine. otherwise i'll just continue.





Doesn't take smarts at all, though obviously your an intelligent guy who's smart enough for such an act.  All it takes is a confusion between coliquial definitions and clinical definitions.  Generally the threshold for a clinical illness is signifigant impairment in normal functioning.  Just because the arbitrary definitions contained in the DSM would apply to anybody, whether ill or not, doesn't mean their properly diagnosed as such.

This is a trope zzripz used to play on all the time- and still is in this thread.  Its misrepresenting reality, but even if it wasn't, it would only be condemnable to the extent applied to normal people.

Personally I think even suicidal people should be left alone- I'm not in favor of empowering doctors to treat people involuntarily, but their are things that can be helped.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: johnm214]
    #16578800 - 07/24/12 08:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
all of you that are so against modern medicine and therapy
i think we should understand that this person would probably be treated just as well by a witch doctor or priest.




Utter nonsense.

How could you possibly claim that?

There are a number of treatments that show marked improvement.  We used to get crazies in the place I worked all the time.  The schizophrenics, especially, would improve markedly in a few days and be able to go home.  Many of these people wouldn't be able to even function coherently, yet after being medicated you wouldn't be able to tell their was anything wrong with them.

You have not clearly expressed your claim, and this quibbling over definitions as occurs all the time is a problem when people are using nonstandard definitions.  If your going to talk about a disease, at least make sure you know what one is.




I'm pretty sure witch doctors and shamans helped a lot of people also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: zzripz]
    #16579936 - 07/24/12 01:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:

just because the medical system is corruptable doesnt mean all diagnosis is BS. it seems to me by reading this thread that its an all or nothing belief, doctors are voodoo witch doctors, or they are absolutelty right. it is possible that they can get diagnosis correct. and there are some mental illnesses (not all, only a few) that can be traced back to certain gene deffects or brain damage, or even measured hormone defincencies.




Where is the compensation for all the harm they have done to people, including children, and their loved ones over their time as an establishment...? Their organization --as part of the medical establishment--are supposed to have the psychiatrists sign a document called the Hippocratic Oath which states as its first commandment, 'First, Do No Harm'.
IF they did have to compensate for all the harm they have done they would cease to be, because they would have no money left, and would be bankrupt and in massive debt!

Where are these 'mental illnesses' you keep talking about that are 'testable'? How do you know this? Are you a doctor? IF there is mental illness due to brain or gene damage then this has to be testable, and if proven to be biologicalit will then be out of the psychiatrists hands and will be referred to the appropriate proper medial department, but if there ARE no medical tests then there isn't --it is simple as that.

Quote:

And contrary to what you said physical ailments CAN be overdiagnosed. my aunt was recently diagnosed with breast cancer... according to some doctors, others told her that its not cancerous and its just a growth, others have said that it requires immediate surgery and radiation, others say she would be crazy to do that because its not even technically cancerous.




Yes, of course there are mistakes in allopathic medicine, but this subject is complex enough without going into all that. But the thing is that the mistakes are medically testable/measurable. For example people can have a second or third diagnosis with other doctors. But when someone goes to the doctor telling her/him they are depressed, most likely the doctor now will push 'psychiatric medication' on them:

Quote:

A recent study on antidepressants has shown that the drugs have some serious side effects: those taking certain prescriptions could lose their sex drive. It sounds like the whole nation’s sexuality is under a threat as, according to the statistics, one in ten Americans takes antidepressants. And it’s not only libido people are losing – many of these meds induce anxiety and double the risk of suicide. Psychologist and author Bruce Levine joins RT’s Liz Wahl to discuss the issue.




America - the antidepressant nation?






im not sure what your directing towards me about compensation, ive stated many times i think the system in place is fucked in many ways and corruptable, but your an ignorant fool if you think they have never done any good for anyone ever.

down syndrome is one example. Another is the case where a student at the university of texas some years ago climbed to the top of the tower and began shooting people, the police eventually killed him. in the weeks and months leading to the incident his friends had noticed he had become extremely angry and withdrawn. in his suicide note he asked for an autopsy, and sure enough upon examination there was a tumor growing in the part of the brain that is responsible for rage and aggression.

And i agree with what you imply with the quote about antideppressant drugs, i hate them, i've lost friends to them. they took them and essentially turned into a different person


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: the myth of mental illness [Re: johnm214]
    #16581292 - 07/24/12 05:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

How, then, does mental illness not exist?

obviously there are people who have problems. this is not a denial of suffering which many people automatically assumed. it is simply a way of explaining that mental illnesses are not medical entities. i got the title of this thread from the title of a book by thomas szasz. perhaps its a bit controversial (good for selling books though).

Personally I think even suicidal people should be left alone- I'm not in favor of empowering doctors to treat people involuntarily, but their are things that can be helped.

this is an excellent point which i agree with to some extent. i think there should be some kind of committee who are trained to recognise whether someone has just had a bad break up or something similar, or whether its a genuine metaphysical suicide in which case they should be allowed to die. instances when someone is suffering physically is a no brainer, just let them do it.

Generally the threshold for a clinical illness is signifigant impairment in normal functioning.

what is normal fuctioning when it comes to behavior? obviously this question is very complex and goes far beyond simply defective brains which is why i am skeptical that mental illness is a medical entity.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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