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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16407733 - 06/20/12 08:53 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this bugs me
Quote:

The theory is that the pathology exists from birth and requires a trigger before symptoms manifest.




a) it is not a pathology.
b) how can "the pathology" be assigned to the moment of birth.

yet it is a "common understanding" like "in god we trust"




"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; if you talk to the dead, you are a schizophenic." - Thomas Szasz

"Schizophenia is simply a collection of syptoms judged to be maladaptive. If an individual fails to drive their automobile in a safe manner should psychiatrists address their mental health?" - blingbling


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: blingbling]
    #16412865 - 06/21/12 07:42 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

errors:

1. endogenous dmt - there have not been numerous studies or experiments  proving the existence of endogenous dmt, instead, there have been numerous review papers published in scientific journals speculating about there being  endogenous dmt. experimental evidence is unconvincingly borderline compared to the level of belief in speculations about it. i.e. this is ANTI-SCIENCE.

2. this statement
Quote:

The theory is that the pathology exists from birth and requires a trigger before symptoms manifest.


could more accurately say
Quote:

The theory is that the potential for personality exists from birth and requires experiences before symptoms manifest.



**** the brain and body are not pathological, though they are susceptible to disorder and disease ****
calling schizophrenia a disease is a medical and legal convention.
it truly is a disorder, certainly one of the mind, but treatment for this is mostly applied to minimize impact on society - strongly indicative that this is most painfully addressed as a social disorder than as a mental disorder, and all conventions related to it are about social containment.

i.e. not from birth, unless you take fate-family dynamics-schoolyard incidents etc. as pathology - or unless we are all sick, some just coping more congenially and others getting 'treatment' for our earnest but failing attempts at dealing congenially.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16412878 - 06/21/12 07:52 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

or unless we are all sick, some just coping more congenially and others getting 'treatment' for our earnest but failing attempts at dealing congenially.


:thumbup:  This is my conclusion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: Icelander]
    #16412903 - 06/21/12 08:11 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

if everyone is sick then there can be no standard with which we can determine health. we might as well say that everyone is healthy. imo the only thing we can say for sure is that everyone is different. when one persons difference is judged to be troublesome or maladaptive then we call that person sick. what is healthy boils down to consensus. the concepts of health and illness are arbitrary like all meaning.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16412965 - 06/21/12 08:48 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
errors:

1. endogenous dmt - there have not been numerous studies or experiments  proving the existence of endogenous dmt, instead, there have been numerous review papers published in scientific journals speculating about there being  endogenous dmt. experimental evidence is unconvincingly borderline compared to the level of belief in speculations about it. i.e. this is ANTI-SCIENCE.





"The identification of N:N-dimethyltryptamine in urine samples of drug-free chronic schizophrenic patients is confirmed by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry of both the free tertiary amine and the trimethylsilyl derivative. A quantitative method using single ion detection (m/e 58) is described. Urine samples from the six subjects were positive for bufotenin by both thin-layer chromatography and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. Samples from three of the six subjects were also positive for N:N-dimethyltryptamine by both methods. Comparable results obtained by thin-layer chromatography and by single ion detection during gas chromatography-mass spectrometry showed that the levels of N:N-dimethyltryptamine in 24-hr urine samples were less than 1 μg."

linky


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16413216 - 06/21/12 10:41 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I have previously read the free available part of this experiment which assesses bufotenin systemically but not in CNS and not in concentrations any way close to an amount that could be psychoactive.
I believe it was previously established that N:N-dimethyltryptamine is a breakdown product of bufotenin - If I had the full transcript of this report, I could be more specific about translating aspects of it for the layman.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16413226 - 06/21/12 10:45 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't say anything about the CNS, concentrations or how it is biosynthesized. All I was saying is that it can endogenously occur in the human body.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: blingbling]
    #16413555 - 06/21/12 12:05 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
if everyone is sick then there can be no standard with which we can determine health. we might as well say that everyone is healthy. imo the only thing we can say for sure is that everyone is different. when one persons difference is judged to be troublesome or maladaptive then we call that person sick. what is healthy boils down to consensus. the concepts of health and illness are arbitrary like all meaning.





If that works for you. :braindamage:

My "standards" include sicker and sickest. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16413562 - 06/21/12 12:08 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

yes, I know, and I was impatient about it, and I am impatient regularly with science that is misleading.

I have also read of trace levels of DMT in non-schizophrenic individuals' urine too.

The reality is that this biochemical pathway is not what was alluded to by McKenna or Strassman.
And I am certain they were directed to the idea to support the story presented by others who were suggesting that the pineal gland is full of psychedelic stuff that gets depleted when you use LSD etc.

apologies for my impatience - do you have the full transcript?


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16413616 - 06/21/12 12:21 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
yes, I know, and I was impatient about it, and I am impatient regularly with science that is misleading.

I have also read of trace levels of DMT in non-schizophrenic individuals' urine too.

The reality is that this biochemical pathway is not what was alluded to by McKenna or Strassman.
And I am certain they were directed to the idea to support the story presented by others who were suggesting that the pineal gland is full of psychedelic stuff that gets depleted when you use LSD etc.

apologies for my impatience - do you have the full transcript?




I understand why you got upset with my post. My lack of properly explaining myself in this thread could be interpreted by some as saying that what was written in the articles is all fact. However, none of the article abstracts I posted stated that the ideas they were proposing were fact, although they did state that DMT can be found in urine of subjects who did not take DMT and I decided to take that as fact, since they have proof of it being so, as they used instruments designed to detect drugs in urine.

As far as the transcript goes, no I do not have it, but I wish I did. Maybe the abstract was a faulty summary? I dunno.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16413629 - 06/21/12 12:24 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Ok. Here is one instance where they say something as fact.

" DMT and other psychoactive tryptamine hallucinogens elicit a robust response at the trace amine receptor."

I don't know if this is so, as I do not have the article and do not know how they know this.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16414408 - 06/21/12 03:04 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know either but it is worth note that in non-human mamals  Trace amine-associated receptors, abbreviated TAAR receptors were located earlier and implicated as olfactory receptors.

one might suppose that

TAAR activation would encourage the animal (when minute trace amine concentrations were scented) to change mental state such that it has now found something of interest.

this is in some way simmilar to us getting some acid into the system and then the system reacting to release serotonin to make things more interesting, change our mental resonance to a higher state as it were.


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16414616 - 06/21/12 03:41 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

If only those articles weren't so god damn expensive. :lol:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16414626 - 06/21/12 03:42 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, if you are subject to the threat of schizophrenia, please listen:

Schizophrenics are Nature's gifts to human society. Schizophrenics are Nature's way of choosing messengers of truth.

Schizophrenia is also mostly indecision at the crossroads of heaven and hell.

I wouldn't be surprised if mushrooms will drive ANYONE schizophrenic, especially in this society. Ever felt while on mushrooms, that this is the way it SHOULD be? Well duh! Our little programmed sober reality is the true death, the true insanity.

All our disease and illness are a product of our common MINDSET.

"How they survive so misguided is a mystery" - Tool

Schizophrenia is when on a biological or neurological level the brain detects it is able to step up to a higher functioning and serve Nature (itself), so it forcefully destroys the "sober reality", not unlike what the mushrooms do, but the mushrooms are farrr more gentle.

Mostly if something is going wrong in your life you need to surrender to the Self.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16415053 - 06/21/12 04:44 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
If only those articles weren't so god damn expensive. :lol:




here's a free one for you, and its the only one I'm aware of that shows activation by DMT (as well as MDMA, LSD, DOI and w bunch of other stuff, check out figure 3:

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/60/6/1181.full



Here's a free review:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0706948/full


there's been very little research done on these receptors, and most of that has been done on just one of them. There are 8 others that have been studied even less.


To say that endogenous DMT binds to trace amine receptors in the brain is speculation. To say that this has an anxiolytic role is wild speculation.


If you want to read a paper about the function of Taar1 that isn't based on wild speculation but actual experiments, look here: http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/324/3/948.long this paper convincingly shows it has a role in dopamine neurons IMO. Also the paper presents evidence of the protein in a bunch of brain areas.


--------------------


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: Freedom]
    #16415245 - 06/21/12 05:11 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
If only those articles weren't so god damn expensive. :lol:




here's a free one for you, and its the only one I'm aware of that shows activation by DMT (as well as MDMA, LSD, DOI and w bunch of other stuff, check out figure 3:

http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/60/6/1181.full



Here's a free review:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0706948/full


there's been very little research done on these receptors, and most of that has been done on just one of them. There are 8 others that have been studied even less.


To say that endogenous DMT binds to trace amine receptors in the brain is speculation. To say that this has an anxiolytic role is wild speculation.


If you want to read a paper about the function of Taar1 that isn't based on wild speculation but actual experiments, look here: http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/324/3/948.long this paper convincingly shows it has a role in dopamine neurons IMO. Also the paper presents evidence of the protein in a bunch of brain areas.




I love you. :hug:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: circastes]
    #16416430 - 06/21/12 08:55 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)


Schizophrenics are Nature's gifts to human society. Schizophrenics are Nature's way of choosing messengers of truth.


:feelsweirdman:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: Freedom]
    #16419009 - 06/22/12 07:35 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

I really like the first link for it's clear description of the process of creating cell factories for the trace amine receptor and then methodically assessing cAMP levels in those cell factories after exposure to various interesting drugs.

what this tells me is that the body has cells that will become activated by certain trace molecules, and that their internal activation (cAMP) can cause them to send out signals for a period of time, or go into a mode that secretes some chemical for a period of time i.e. until the cAMP is back to baseline.

this alternate method of establishing a shift in 'alertness, resonance and reactivity' is very much what we would be looking for with regard to strong reactions to trace quantities of things like LSD, which will not be prevalent in enough locations to produce the serotonin flood that we consider a normal psychedelic brain cell circumstance.

We want to see what cells with the TAAR's do after they have lots of cAMP in them.

in the third link - another example of good scientific work - there was a useful exclusion of cerebellar and olfactory response noted (based upon absence of labelled LacZ expression(mRNA)) indicating that these tissues keep a stable behavior even when other parts of the brain (eg cerebrum) are in an altered state.

The focus was on TAAR1 - especially responsive to Amphetamine, and the linkage to Dopamine production was supportive of other findings for the class of drugs examined.

For me that is another clincher that they are on the right tack.

(the good articles seem to stay clear of any claims of significance to endogenous DMT or other nearly religious claims about 'the spirit molecule' (specifically), though there is much to do about traces of endogenous p-tyramine, β-phenylethylamine, octopamine, and tryptamine which are endogenous amine compounds)

For those that wish to say that schizophrenics are born not made, this is also a bit supportive - however, we need to keep clear on the matter that being high is not being sick or nuts, and that being a soft head, or easy high type person does not mean you are going to be schizophrenic. Other factors are always at play.


thanks for the intense morning read


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: Jwlst]
    #16425074 - 06/23/12 12:49 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Dude just because your white does not mean you are not An authentic shaman. Shamans exist in all corners of the earth. The authentic shaman sees no meaning in the word shaman though.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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OfflineJwlst
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Re: linkage between the use of Psilocybin Mushrooms and development of Schizophrenia and other illnesses [Re: Cactilove]
    #16432763 - 06/24/12 10:20 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Hook, line and sinker :haha:


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