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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Talking to The Brainwashed
    #1642093 - 06/18/03 01:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Talk to anyone who has too much exposure to network TV news, and don't you feel like you're pounding your head on a brick wall? Or trying to get water out of a stone? When forced into a logical retrest, the next step in their argument is inevitably to resort to emotion or jingoistic patriotism.

"So where's the WMDs?"

"Hussein was butchering his people! It doesn't matter that we haven't found WMDs! He supported terrorists!"

"So it doesn't matter that the president lied to get us there?"

"America is great! He's the leader of the only free country in the world! God bless America! He did what he knew was right!"

Should one even bother?


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OfflinePaid
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Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 5,376
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1642098 - 06/18/03 01:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think so yes, because people who belive, and make statements like thoseare very impressionable, so therefore even if its takes years,
your alternate message may sink in ;-)



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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1642108 - 06/18/03 01:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I know what you mean, and dealing with Blind Patriotism is never easy...Sometimes it's just best to let them live in their happy place though.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1642109 - 06/18/03 01:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

well... wasn't saddam butchering his people? wasn't he supporting terrorism? wasn't he indeed a slippery, nasty dude with ambitions of NBC arsenals and regional dominance?

what sort of 'logic' do you use with these people?

here... let us play a little gaaame. i will assume the role of 'war supporter'. talk to me (war supporter) about how you feel. i promise it'll be more fruitful than pounding your head on a wall or squeezing a stone for water...


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642110 - 06/18/03 01:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i don't know what the hell i'm talking about.





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Anonymous

Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1642142 - 06/18/03 01:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

here... let's examine the pros and cons of the war for a moment... we can really break this down into what pros and cons exist, and how much value each one should be given.

some war supporters will take the position that the pros of the war are all-valuable and the cons are either worthless or non-existant.

some dissenters will do the opposite.

i think that really, there are valuable points here on both sides.

what they are (or will be) and how much importance they have, is not something that can really be known for years now.

right now, they haven't found any weapons, saddam hussein is on the loose, there is still a resistance, still americans getting shot at, no iraqi government, it cost billions of dollars, america's word and reputation is tarnished, etc, etc, etc...

at the same time, hussein was a tyrant, he'd killed half a million people or so, was aggressive to his neighbors, did everything he could get away with the further his quest for non-conventional weaponry. he was a nasty dude...

less than half a year after the invasion, "i don't know" is the best answer i can think of to the question "was this a good idea?". we won't really know for years. maybe we'll never really know. what would have happened if we didn't do this? there's no way to know.

i think hardcore war protestors are just as ignorant, arrogant, and misguided as hardcore supporters.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642156 - 06/18/03 01:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Accurate and well written.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642183 - 06/18/03 01:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I agree as well.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642217 - 06/18/03 02:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

OK, I'll take you on. But the first sign of patriotism or juingoism on your part and I'll rest my case.


at the same time, hussein was a tyrant, he'd killed half a million people or so, was aggressive to his neighbors, did everything he could get away with the further his quest for non-conventional weaponry. he was a nasty dude...



1) We didn't invade for humanitarian reasons.
We armed him. We sold him the gas that may have killed the kurdish villagers (if you read the accounts from the time, it may have been the Iranians who killed the villagers - who were caught in a crossfire exchange of chemical weapons between the fighting armies). The state department was fully aware of his atrocities and didn't care. The Shiite massacre was caused by George Bush, who incited an uprising, promising (or suggesting) support from the US troops, and then pulled out, leavin the Shiites to face Saddam's superior army. (We knew about the mass graves - we indirectly caused them). The half million kids who died in the last 10 years died as a result of the sanctions. Janet Reno: "Yes, that is a price worth paying."

2) He wasn't building nukes, and the CIA knew.
The evidence that he was developing nukes was faked, and the CIA certainly knew that. That the information wouldn't have found its way up the chain of command seems unlikely to me.

3) This wasn't a valiant , just, or fair war, despite the media representation.
We starve the country for 10 years, bomb the hell out of it at regular intervals throughout that decade, and then invade with the biggest most powerful army in the world. And then we cheer at our glorious victory. It is no great victory when the heavyweight boxer kicks the six year old child's ass.

4) Our energy requirements are a major reason for the invasion. In other words, it was largely a war of "grab the resources".
Read Wolfowitz in the most recent Vanity Fair, or at the Singapore conference (both in the past 3 weeks). We wanted to pull out of Saudi Arabia but we couldn't, because of the need to protect the Saudis from the Hussein's regime. Remove Hussein, now suddenly we're out of Saudi Arabia. Why? Oil oil oil. Energy resources are what this war, the previous war, and the next war are all about. Read my "Peak Oil" post from a few days ago, on this board.

5) PNAC
Read PNAC's essays. PNAC is a right wing thinktank, formed in 1997, whose members include Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Perle, Wolfowitz, etc etc. Most of PNAC is now in the ruling administration. Their stated goals and objectives are imperialistic. In their documents, they desribe the need for first strike policies, restructuring the middle east, etc etc.

6) Bush Lies.
The reasons for the war swung back and forth in the six months before the invasion. Finally he settled on one he could rally the public behind. Just look at the record though - the administration will say anything to achieve their goals.

7) The American People are uninformed (according to polls).
40% believe we've found the WMDs. 30% believe WMDs were used against the US army in the invasion. The Bush administration do nothing to improve this situation, and much to worsen it (see their at best silence regarding the misreporting of the "Jessica Lynch Hero " story.) A healthy democracy requires an informed populace which requires the administration to be honest.

8) Conflicts of interest.
The Bush administration is full of ex-oilmen, ex-defense men, people with actual serving ties to defense industries, etc etc. These people (and their friends) are making billions off this war. Its called profiteering.

9) WMDs and inspections.
Why didn't we give the UN inspectors more time? Because they would have found nothing, and destroyed the argument that Saddam was a threat. The argument is made now that "Saddam destroyed his WMDs before we invaded." Well, so what? Wasn't that what we were asking him to do?



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: Cornholio]
    #1642218 - 06/18/03 02:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don't. You'd have to be an idiot to support the war in iraq...or american.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1642248 - 06/18/03 02:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
I don't. You'd have to be an idiot to support the war in iraq...or american.



Where did he say he supported the war?

Since the post he replied to said there were pro's and cons and that hard core anybodys were nuts, how can he be called a war supporter?

Is Alpo-ism spreading?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642250 - 06/18/03 02:26 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

less than half a year after the invasion, "i don't know" is the best answer i can think of to the question "was this a good idea?". we won't really know for years. maybe we'll never really know. what would have happened if we didn't do this? there's no way to know.

actually we do know... thousands of people wouldn't have died, we would have saved billions of dollars, our international reputation would still be intact..

and doesn't it seem kind of absurd to have gone to war because we didn't really know the consequences of not going to war? shouldn't we know these things before commiting?




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OfflineAzmodeus
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1642276 - 06/18/03 02:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Azmodeus said:
I don't.  You'd have to be an idiot to support the war in iraq...or american. 



Where did he say he supported the war? 




Where did i say he supported the war?  I replied to him with a statement, sorry to confuse you...

I take offence to the appoloism spreading comment though! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1642287 - 06/18/03 02:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I take offence to the appoloism spreading comment though!



It's spelled Alpo-ism.

But you're correct. It was the lowest of blows and I apologize for making such a nasty comment.

I grovel and beg for forgiveness.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1642295 - 06/18/03 02:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I grovel and beg for forgiveness. 




Your lucky!...anything less and it would have been a feud the likes of which you can only imagine... :crazy:

...just dont let it happen again!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1642308 - 06/18/03 02:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

1) We didn't invade for humanitarian reasons.

see, this is debatable. hussein's government was repressive (although less so than some other governments in the region) and was directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of political opponents and other 'undesirables'.

We armed him. We sold him the gas that may have killed the kurdish villagers (if you read the accounts from the time, it may have been the Iranians who killed the villagers - who were caught in a crossfire exchange of chemical weapons between the fighting armies).

we may have given him some weapons during his war on fundamentalist iran. do not forget that iran was run by a fundamentalist theocracy with a penchant for supporting terrorism and kidnapping americans. an attack against them by hussein was supported. we gave him some weapons. that in no way excuses him from using those weapons against civilians. yes, and it's quite probably it was the iranians anyway, but that's beside the point.

The Shiite massacre was caused by George Bush, who incited an uprising, promising (or suggesting) support from the US troops, and then pulled out, leavin the Shiites to face Saddam's superior army. (We knew about the mass graves - we indirectly caused them).

i believe you're talking about when the Bush I administration encouraged a Kurdish uprising, then left them hanging in the wind to get killed. this was because of pressure from turkey, which feared that the uprising would spill into it's country, which has a sizable population of Kurds. it was a foolish blunder that cost the lives of a few thousand Kurds, but it was Hussein that killed them, not Bush, and it has little to do with the war in 2003.

The half million kids who died in the last 10 years died as a result of the sanctions.

which would still be going on had we not invaded them.

Janet Reno: "Yes, that is a price worth paying."

this was said by madeline albright, and she was wrong. the sanctions were bullshit. but again, sanctions have little to do with the war we just had. if anything, the terribleness of continued sanctions is a cause for the war, not against it.

2) He wasn't building nukes, and the CIA knew.

he had been building them in the past (they actually caught him with a few pounds of plutonium back in the 90's), and he probably would be again at some point in the future.

3) This wasn't a valiant , just, or fair war, despite the media representation.
We starve the country for 10 years, bomb the hell out of it at regular intervals throughout that decade, and then invade with the biggest most powerful army in the world. And then we cheer at our glorious victory. It is no great victory when the heavyweight boxer kicks the six year old child's ass.

would you rather us attack china? pick on someone our own size? this is pretty irrelevant. we kicked their ass... so what? less people die that way. small, short wars are better than big, long ones.

4) Our energy requirements are a major reason for the invasion. In other words, it was largely a war of "grab the resources".

agreed. but this isn't relevant.

5) PNAC

nor is this.

6) Bush Lies.

it was the only way to get people to go along with the war. if the war was truly a good cause, then he did what he had to do to make it happen. again, this really doesn't make the case for a 'good' war or a 'bad' one.

let's say i know A, and because of A, i feel it's important to do C. i know that if you knew A, you might not think it's important to do C... but i think it is. however, i do know that if you thought B, then you'd think C was a good idea... so i tell you B, and we all agree to do C. a shiesty way to get things done for sure, but it doesn't make or break the case for C.

7) The American People are uninformed (according to polls).

yes they are. very much so. what's the point?

8) Conflicts of interest.

yes, which is why to many this war has a very sour flavor.

9) WMDs and inspections.

do you think that for the rest of his reign, hussein would have given up his quest for weapons? no, he'd be off the hook for now, and in a few years, at it again.

most of your points are actually true, but really irrelevant to what's important here. these are the questions we need to be asking:

1. was this war good for the iraqi people?
2. was this war good for the people of the middle east?
3. was this war good for the people of the united states?
4. did this war make the world safer and more stable?


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1642313 - 06/18/03 02:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You have a definition for alpoism? Can't find it in google. Must be an shroomery-insider thing?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642319 - 06/18/03 02:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

5. is it our place to be deciding what's "good" for people?


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Anonymous

Re: Talking to The Brainwashed *DELETED* [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1642327 - 06/18/03 02:49 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by mushmaster


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Talking to The Brainwashed [Re: ]
    #1642331 - 06/18/03 02:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

that's not a good example and you know it... we were attacked in WWII. before Pearl Harbor, we did NOTHING while Hitler was rampaging across Europe... and the truth of the holocaust didn't come out until after the war... there are so many reasons that it's a bad comparison but you get the point.


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