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 Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
 
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 Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? 
#16373492 - 06/12/12 09:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Has the universe been shown to be a fractal?
Edited by Freedom (06/12/12 09:46 PM)
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 redgreenvines
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 Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom] 1
#16374896 - 06/13/12 05:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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no
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GoreTuzk
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#16375030 - 06/13/12 06:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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The universe isn't fractal. It's human reality that is holographic, and holograms are fractals.
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Midnight_Toker
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: GoreTuzk]
#16375091 - 06/13/12 06:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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What exists beyond reality?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: GoreTuzk] 1
#16375112 - 06/13/12 07:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why would you say that holograms are fractals?
Fractal composition of subunits are exactly like the larger units such that larger aggregates made up of the fractal subunits have the very same shape and aggregation can be extrapolated upward in complexity ad infinitum still preserving the shape. Also the subunits can be decomposed and each extrapolation downward will exhibit the same shape which is usually mathematically elegant but relatively simple.
Visiting a likeness among holograms only goes one way and not completely, i.e. the hologram merely has the nature of smaller portions of the original whole encapsulating a version of the original whole image with the caveat that the image degrades as less of the original holographic fabric is preserved.
i.e. there is a mass to clarity or accuracy relationship.
Meanwhile with holograms there is no upwards extrapolation possible, i.e. the relationship is decompositionally realized only (detectible in within smaller pieces of the once complete hologram until the portion no longer has enough complexity to render the foggy ghost of the larger and once sharp 3-d image).
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circastes
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#16375128 - 06/13/12 07:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's a fractal you fucking idiots. If you can see and accept this you can do anything.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: circastes] 2
#16375249 - 06/13/12 08:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think you may be projecting again
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dustinthewind13
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom]
#16375276 - 06/13/12 08:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Has the universe been shown to be a fractal?
Assuming the smallest particle comprising matter exists, the universe is then not a fractal. Even if particles indefinitely become smaller and smaller, there would still have to be something bigger than the universe and so on indefinitely to make the universe a fractal. At least I think that's a fractal. Otherwise, I bet if you take shapes from nature you will eventually get a 2d fractal image. A good example might be pictures taken of faraway galaxies taken using a telescope.
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DieCommie
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#16375472 - 06/13/12 09:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
no
This. Not even close.
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birdland
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: circastes] 1
#16375509 - 06/13/12 10:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's a fractal you fucking idiots. If you can see and accept this you can do anything.
Chill bro. How can you be sure?
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dustinthewind13
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: birdland] 1
#16375606 - 06/13/12 10:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
birdland said:
Quote:
It's a fractal you fucking idiots. If you can see and accept this you can do anything.
Chill bro. How can you be sure?
PMS?
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"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom]
#16375654 - 06/13/12 10:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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I didn't think so. I mean from an intuitive I don't see anything like solar systems or galaxies on smaller scales .
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom]
#16375657 - 06/13/12 10:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think it's like a fractal in the way that it is infinite - fractals are infinite right?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#16375660 - 06/13/12 10:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fractals:
Quote:
A fractal is a mathematical set that has a fractal dimension that usually exceeds its topological dimension[1] and may fall between the integers.[2] Fractals are typically self-similar patterns, where self-similar means they are "the same from near as from far"[3] Fractals may be exactly the same at every scale, or as illustrated in Figure 1, they may be nearly the same at different scales.[2][4][5][6] The definition of fractal goes beyond self-similarity per se to exclude trivial self-similarity and include the idea of a detailed pattern repeating itself.[2]:166; 18[4][7]
I dont think you can say fractals themselves are infinite or not, its not a descriptor that applies. You have to say what property exactly you are talking about.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: DieCommie]
#16375670 - 06/13/12 11:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its funny/sad how many people believe in this idea despite how obviously different things look on different scales.
My guess is that such a neat description, such a simple explanation for the order of things appeals to people. Maybe even makes them feel like they fit in.
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lsderp
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom]
#16375752 - 06/13/12 11:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mathematically it's definitely not. For me when saying that the universe is a fractal just means that it is made up of pieces which are similar to the pieces which make them up and so on. Similar, but not the same as a true fractal would be.
This makes sense to me because of how we are made of atoms, which are made of subatomic particles and so on, whereas going up the scale we are like atoms of the earth, which is like an atom of the milky way, and so on. so yeah it's not a true fractal but it has fractal like qualities
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: lsderp]
#16375760 - 06/13/12 11:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wonder if thats what most people mean.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: Freedom]
#16375765 - 06/13/12 11:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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,
Edited by DieCommie (11/09/16 04:28 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: DieCommie]
#16375814 - 06/13/12 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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objects have composition - you could say, this is about as fractal as it gets in RL.
the universe is an object composed of objects that are composed of objects etc. etc. etc.
Composition is the common idea at any scale.
This can be a valuable awareness in the sense that it is good to know that things may break into their components, or may coalesce into larger things - so you might want to be in tune with that or it may seem unsettling.
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GoreTuzk
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Re: Has the universe been shown to be a fractal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#16375848 - 06/13/12 11:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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The closest thing to showing the universe is fractal that I know of is Bell's non-locality, but of course it could have another explanation.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Why would you say that holograms are fractals?
Fractal composition of subunits are exactly like the larger units such that larger aggregates made up of the fractal subunits have the very same shape and aggregation can be extrapolated upward in complexity ad infinitum still preserving the shape. Also the subunits can be decomposed and each extrapolation downward will exhibit the same shape which is usually mathematically elegant but relatively simple.
Visiting a likeness among holograms only goes one way and not completely, i.e. the hologram merely has the nature of smaller portions of the original whole encapsulating a version of the original whole image with the caveat that the image degrades as less of the original holographic fabric is preserved.
i.e. there is a mass to clarity or accuracy relationship.
Meanwhile with holograms there is no upwards extrapolation possible, i.e. the relationship is decompositionally realized only (detectible in within smaller pieces of the once complete hologram until the portion no longer has enough complexity to render the foggy ghost of the larger and once sharp 3-d image).
Why would you say with holograms there is no upwards extrapolation possible? I'm not talking about holograms recorded with laser beams and silver, I'm talking about the holographic method of information encoding and storage, which simply is the most efficient known. Of course, just because we don't know a more efficient method it doesn't mean that one doesn't exist but until I'm shown one I won't base my argument on that assumption. The fact that holography seems to be a recurring principle in the processes of awareness, just like fractals seem to be a recurring principle in self organizing systems (fractal genes, fractal morphology) definitely suggests to me that these two may very well go hand to hand, simply because of the efficiency aspect, which is the name of the game in thermodynamics.
There's evidence suggesting our brains use that method in associative memory and unscrambling the sensory information into perception and locomotion (vision is obviously a projected hologram and acoustic discernment has been shown to work the same way: interference patterns). The findings of quantum physics about there being no observer separate from what is observed indicate to me that the integrated touchy-feely, surround-sound, high-res holographic reality we project is the only reality that exists: there's no external world "out there", so I don't think we can say the universe is a hologram, the holographic method just seems to be the most efficient and therefore the naturally selected method for mind and consciousness. If
Obviously I could be wrong, I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for any of my theories, especially the onthological ones. I am aware that man's strongest ability is to rationalize our belief systems but it seems to fit perfectly with everything else I've learned and keep on learning, for what it's worth.
This thread reminded me of this Simpson intro of a fractal universe, zooming out from and ending in Homer's head. http://www.istosovideo.com/videos/4767/the-simpsons-intro-universe.html
Edited by GoreTuzk (06/13/12 02:19 PM)
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