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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16331886 - 06/04/12 04:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Memories said:
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OrgoneConclusion said: Sorry to hear your memory is going.
What is Memories without his memory?
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Icelander said:
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Memories said: Maybe i should say the outermost part of the brain that encompasses the rest of it.
Are you talking neo cortex?
That may be it. I am pretty ignorant with regards to neuroscience.
Our highly developed neo-cortex is responsible for our extreme self awarness and highly developed conscious awareness although I don't believe it covers the whole of the brain. It does sit on the outermost part however. It's the newest part of our brain in evolutionary terms and likely a big part of our difficulties getting it coordinated with the other parts of the brain in smooth cooperation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Icelander]
#16331904 - 06/04/12 04:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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no such thing as free will, when free will or not is up to you, or not
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Icelander]
#16331910 - 06/04/12 04:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ya, that's what i was thinkin of.
I think the simultaneous evolution of the neo-cortex coupled with greater critical thinking is what caused us to create delusion to deal with tjings that were becoming apparent, like death.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: DieCommie]
#16331973 - 06/04/12 04:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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OrgoneConclusion said: Is a mousetrap with a billion parts more aware than a mousetrap with 4 parts?
Yes, if its constructed right.
Do you have plans & blueprints?
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Icelander
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16331998 - 06/04/12 04:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Absolutely, no other animal that we know of is so hyper aware of it's own impermanence and death. No other animal that we know of can project itself into the future to see it cannot exist down the road. It's a horrible problem and imo and Becker's at the core of human neurosis and angst. No other animal suffers like humans as far as we know and no other animal needs shields to buffer itself from the full on awareness and terror of it's impermanence. This has been discussed in some very dense and long threads here if you want to do a search. Also reading Becker's "Denial of Death" is a must for anyone who's really curious as to the truth of this theory. I suggest reading it and deciding for oneself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Icelander]
#16332021 - 06/04/12 04:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have already read it. Memory failing ya Ice?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
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OrgoneConclusion said: Is a mousetrap with a billion parts more aware than a mousetrap with 4 parts?
Yes, if its constructed right.
Do you have plans & blueprints?
It takes a few billion years and many iterations to get it right.
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Icelander
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16332544 - 06/04/12 06:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: I have already read it. Memory failing ya Ice?
That was for the general audience. I remembered you have read it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Icelander]
#16332558 - 06/04/12 06:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm sure we have a very dedicated audience.
Edited by Memories (06/04/12 06:19 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16332677 - 06/04/12 06:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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When Veritas and I brought this subject up here it was a virtually undiscussed subject. Now, over several years, it's part of the makeup of this forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Icelander]
#16332687 - 06/04/12 06:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hurray for making a difference!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Given a healthy neuron, bathed in the correct solution of neurotransmitters and presented with an identical input a million times will always give the same output. ALL WAYS. This has been done and is proof of mechanical function.
Now take two ganged neurons and the result is the same.
We can only go so far in isolation, meaning we cannot put an entire brain with its trillion trillion trillion connections in a petri dish and test it.
Howsomever, there is absolutely no reason to believe that more connections makes it any less mechanical. None.
This means that given a healthy brain with the exact same conditions will make the exact same choice.
Now where does 'you' and 'free will' and consciousness come into play?
Is a mousetrap with a billion parts more aware than a mousetrap with 4 parts?
Given a healthy synapse of a neuron, bathed in the correct solution of neurotransmitters it will fire(in-vivo the neurotransmitter is only active at the synapse you would not be bathing the neurons). this is repeatable, most neurons have only one large synapse where a dendtrite end receives neurotransmitter from an axon end - one way only, and a full complement of discharge will provide a full excitation of the whole neuron when the synapse receives the discharced neurotransmitter.
While true for efferent and non cerebral cortical neurons, Many of the Neurons in the cortex have two significant observed morphological variances one variance is multi-axon form, or branched axon type neurons.
There are millions of these which when they fire connecting with hundreds of cortical neurons each will have sub-threshold transmission capability - the cell bodies that these connect with have many tiny synapses with multiple terminii from several of thes multiaxoned neurons.
another odd thing is that the axon branchlets connect not with dendrites so much as with cell bodies, and many cell bodies have their dendrites turned to the outer layer of the cortex without much axon presence. these dendrites are involved in a different and measurable electrical activity without neurotransmitters - i.e. fields, (picked up on eeg).
normally neurons do not fire when they receive a tiny branch transmission - a partial charge, or partial neurotransmitter exchange, but if these neurons get several sub-threshold transmissions, enough synaptic neurotransmitter will make the cerebral cell fire; and if the cerebral cell is being subject to a pulse train at the same time the synapse with a tiny branch axon terminus will be made more sensitive, it will grow or scar up such that in future sub-threshold neurotransmission will trigger full response.
the next time the sub=threshold charge arrives at this 'scar' the more likely it will trip the neuron to fire.
Morphologically what is noted in brains of older people with many memories is that the cerebral cortical neurons are larger - they have grown from this repetitive scarring so that they can fire when associated branches fire at them. Cells that have not been involved in memory die and give space for these that are involved in memories to become larger.
in age related brain disease holes form without growth (new memory formation) but with atrophy and necrosis of unused cells.
this is pretty much what is observed.
One shot neuron behavior is the norm outside of the cerebral cortex but it is not the only way that a neuron can function. Note rods and cones are also kinds of neurons and so are the otic cells with tiny hairs in the cochlea. In these cells the dendrites are adapted to receive light or vibration. and in the cortex the dendrites are adapted to conduct and receive electrical field variances.
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Edited by redgreenvines (06/04/12 07:00 PM)
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crkhd
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For one, the set of permutations of neural connections increases obscenely the more neurons there are, thereby increasing the size of the syntax space of whatever code the brain uses to do its thing. If the mapping of the set 'objects in existence' can be mapped 1:1 or better to 'objects the brain can name' then we have a key aspect of free roaming awareness: the ability to contextualise everything.
Secondly the 'free will' or 'awareness' arises in the path that the brain takes through this set of neural connections. What agent is responsible for choosing how connections are made and broken? I would call that 'me'. The origin of this 'force' is at (0,0,0,0) so there. First cause, bitches. And most of all; mechanists have the preconception that evolutionary dice-rolling cannot be 'intelligent'. IMO a process that creates intelligence itself encompasses the intelligence it creates. If we are the result of dice-rolling and are 'intelligent' and 'aware' then the dice rolling itself is 'intelligent' and 'aware'. How can it not be when it and us are the exact same damn thing?
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: crkhd]
#16335009 - 06/05/12 08:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is this agent that is seperate from the neurons?
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birdland
Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
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Quote:
Now where does 'you' and 'free will' and consciousness come into play?
'Me' is just an and idea I can identify myself on various levels but nonetheless, it's just an idea.
Though I can't be sure, I don't believe in free will. I don't think your OP is necessarily concrete evidence for this though.
Maybe I missed something but I don't see how this explains or "demystifies" consciousness?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: birdland]
#16335225 - 06/05/12 09:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Some would have you believe that one neuron = no consciousness; 100 neurons = no consciousness, but one billion neurons (or whatever the 'magic' number) and - tada! Consciousness.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Of course. You know what an emergent property is.
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Memories
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: DieCommie]
#16335309 - 06/05/12 10:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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One line-no triangle, two lines-no triangle, three lines-tada! A triangle!
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redgreenvines
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16335745 - 06/05/12 11:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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you need senses, neurons cortex for interference fields to occur and to be sensed memory fixation linking all cortical neurons that are in an active state i.e. all participants of a co-temporal event.
that is where your 3rd line of the triangle is...
letting connections grow at subthreashold linkage points when the cell is in an active state.
with that we can accommodate consciousness in a brain.
it is a combination of types of neurons in a configuration that allows sensation and interference field based sub threashold memory fixation.
this missing link is the mini-synapse enabling, when a sensory pulse train makes the neuron active (short term memory - in the stream of consciousness (3-5 minutes)). After repetition (learning) this causes growth of the mini-synapses so that the neuron can be reactivated with partial excitation (i.e it is not a full one shot synapse) - this gives long term memory.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Neurons, the brain and you! [Re: Memories]
#16336016 - 06/05/12 12:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said: One line-no triangle, two lines-no triangle, three lines-tada! A triangle!
Four lines - no triangle. Now you hafta start all over.
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