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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please!
    #1626990 - 06/11/03 07:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I found a few of these mushrooms growing in my lawn today. The spore print is black, and they have a very distinct mushroomy odor. After looking through my book and some pictures online, I think they are some species of Panaeolus.

Here's a written description of the specimens I found:

PILEUS:

2.5-3.5 cm in the specimens I found.
Broadly bell-shaped to broadly rounded, becomes flat with age
Very slightly scaly (or powdery maybe?), but feels smooth.
Color brownish orange to almost chocolatey brown.
Faint veil remnants on margin.
Margin very slightly pleated.

LAMELLAE:

Gills adnexed, crowded, dark chocolate brown in color with grayish white edges.

STIPE:

Cylindric, fibrillose, hollow and fragile.
Approximately 4 cm by 3mm in specimens I found.
Color whitish near cap, but mainly light brown or beigeish.
Inside has deep, coffee-like brown at bottom, fading to whitish at top.

And here are the pics:

(Sorry this first one is so damn blurry! I would've taken it again, but unfortunately I picked the specimen immediately after taking this picture)



Here's the cap of an older specimen:



And here's the gills of that same specimen: (You can also see how the stipe is whiter towards the cap, as I mentioned in my description)



So am I right in thinking that it's a Pan? If so, what species is this?

Thanks!

-RebelSteve



--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/14/03 03:52 PM)


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1627069 - 06/11/03 08:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

if the cap is not typically viscid and your sure the spore print is black, then it is a Panaeolus, according to Aurora's book.

is there a fibrilose zone on the stalk where a partial veil could have been and/or are the remanents of the possible veil on the cap toothlike or on the margin of the cap?

something about that umbonate cap and reddish brown gills dissuades me from a panaeolus but if you say the spore print is black black then ok.

assuming it is panaeolus, the only thing that it keys out to be is a P. fimicola which is fairly not common. i have never seen a picture or a description of it but it is supposedly recognized by its more convex cap than most bell-shaped panaeolus.

tadaah, good luck.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1627191 - 06/11/03 09:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

is there a fibrilose zone on the stalk where a partial veil could have been and/or are the remanents of the possible veil on the cap toothlike or on the margin of the cap?

yes

something about that umbonate cap and reddish brown gills dissuades me from a panaeolus but if you say the spore print is black black then ok.

that cap is considered umbonate? my book doesn't list that cap shape at all... i thought it looked pretty bell-shaped.

for some reason my camera made the gills look reddish brown, but in reality they are a very dark chocolatey brown.

i suppose the spore print could be a very dark brown, but it's the closest to black that i have ever seen a spore print be.

do others think this is p. fimicola?


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleEffedS
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1627466 - 06/11/03 11:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Jeez son!
When did you go get a degree in hunting?!?
I understood that, barely.  :grin:

You are going to make a great hunter. :wink:

As my friend Ripple would say.. "Shine On!"


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: Effed]
    #1627548 - 06/11/03 11:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

im not sure it is umbonate but the cap has a convex uplifting on top. i would say the cap is more convex than bell-shaped.

again, i have never seen descriptions of Panaeolus fimicola, woops nevermind i just found it in Stamets book. if you have it, check it out.

is this more like it?


it says that cap often having slightly reddish hues. so im gonna go with P. fimicola.

if you dont have PMOTW by Stamets then i can post a brief description for you.  :wink:

it says that cap often having slightly reddish hues. so im gonna go with P. fimicola. 


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1627646 - 06/12/03 12:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cool, thanks a lot, Magma! :smile:

That pic does look a lot more like it.  The only book I have is Peterson's guide to mushrooms, which doesn't have any info on P. fimicola.  I just did a search online, but the only things that came up were in a foreign language and did not have any photos. 

I did, however, gather that P. fimicola is psychoactive!  Would anyone know how many of these mushrooms it would take to make my donkey trip??

Anyway...  If you could post the info on it from Stamets book, I would greatly appreciate it!  I can't believe a psychoactive mushroom was (possibly) growing in my lawn!!! :laugh:  Thanks again for your help, Magma!

Peace,

RebelSteve 

EDIT:  Too bad I didn't get better pics, since this doesn't seem to be a very common mushroom (if it is P. fimicola).  Hopefully some more will pop up soon, though, and I will be sure to get decent pics when they do!

EDIT #2:  I am going to save spore prints and gill fragments of these mushrooms for someone to take a look at under the microscope, but I was wondering how I can keep the gill fragments in good shape so the basidia and whatnot are well-preserved.  In other words, how should I store it properly to be sent out to someone later?  Thanks in advance for any help!


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/12/03 12:24 AM)


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1628739 - 06/12/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

sorry i dont know anything about the basidia stuff but here is the description from Stamets book:

CAP: 1-2 (3)cm. convex to campnanulate, expanding to plane rarely. dingy gray to black, often with slight reddish hues, becoming paler in drying , leaving a darker grayish brown encircling zone along the margin. margin striate when moist, not appendiculate (with veil remanents hanging), but sometimes irregular or uplifted. surface smooth, soon dry. flesh moderately thick.

GILLS: adnexed to adnate, broad, grayish, mottled, with grayish edges, two or three tiers of intermediate gills present.

STEM: 60-100mm long by 1-2mm thick. equal, hollow, soft, and fragile. dingy pale to whitish especially towards the apex. surface powdered about and striate below.

SPORES: black in deposit. 11-14 by 7-9.5 u, lemon shaped with an apical germ pore. basidia 4-spored, pleurocystidia absent or only near to the gills edge and then similar in form to cheilocystidia. cheilocystidia 25-35 (40) by 6-12 u, mostly fusoid-ventricose.

HABITAT:scattered in soil or dung in late spring and the fall. sometimes found in well-fertilized lawns or grassy places in woods. WIDESPREAD.

COMMENTS: later producer of psilocybin. not active to weakly active. some collections exhibted activity. although widespread, it is infrequently encountered when compared to other Panaeoli species. see also P. casten., P. foenisecii, and P. papilonaceus.

dammit, i was half way done and i moved my keyboard and accidently pressed one button and the whole thing was erased.  :mad: ok.

tell us how it works out.  :smirk: 


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1628779 - 06/12/03 01:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

aw, man, thanks for typing all that up, magma!  you rock! :laugh:

i really don't think it's the right mushroom, though, because some of the information for the cap and gills (especially the color info) just doesn't match at all.

here is a new picture i took this morning of a baby specimen that just popped up:



i seem to have a knack for having the grass in my pictures more in-focus that my actual subject matter!  :blush:  the batteries ran out after snapping this shot, but i am going to get some more and take more pictures when this guy grows up a little more.  good pictures!  :crazy:

anyone else have opinions on this mushroom?  mj?  toxicman?  thanks,

rebelsteve
 


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1629309 - 06/12/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i just examined another fairly mature specimen from my lawn and have some additional information i thought might help in id'ing this mushroom.

the cap definitely does have a small amount of wispy veil remnants hanging from the very edge of it.  the veil remnants are black in color and hang less than a millimeter from the edge of the cap.  the cap is also definitely conic, not bell-shaped.

the stem of this specimen was about half a centimeter thick.  it breaks like chalk.  i cut the mushroom in half and noticed something very interesting:  the bottom three quarters of the inside of the stem has a coffee-like color, which fades to whitish  towards the cap.  it has a hollow tube running through it.  it's almost like the outside of the stem, which is light brown in color (and rough) is surrounding a cylinder of coffee-colored tissue with a tube running through it.

i also examined the gills in more detail under bright light.  they are definitely brown in color, but i did notice that the edges of them have a whitish-grey tint to them.

unfortunately i do not have the means or money right now to go buy new batteries for my digicam, so i don't have any pics to show you.  i did, however, get a few really nice photos of this mushroom using my normal camera with a macro lens attached.  it might be a while before i get them developed, though.

i am taking a spore print of this specimen, which i plan to leave for 24 hours before examining its color.  the spore prints i took yesterday only sat for less than an hour (it dropped spores very quickly), and they were a greyish-black in color, i suppose. 

i would really appreciate any more guesses on what this mushroom might be.  i don't think it's p. fimicola because of the color and size issues.  i don't even really think it's a pan anymore, either.  id'ing mushrooms can be a bitch! :crazy:

thanks, guys! :smile: :smile: :smile:

-rebelsteve   


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineLizard King
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1629314 - 06/12/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I thought I knew what that mushroom was, and indeed it is what I thought it was. I didn't think that mushroom looked panaeolus when I looked at it yesterday, its not even in the Panaeolus genus. That mushroom is Psathyrella velutina, or the velvety Psathyrella. Its obvious in that second picture. I know they aren't the best pics to identify from, but I have seen this mushrooms 1million and one times before, I know every face it can put on.


Those gills should have been a dead give away for anyone trying to ID that mushroom that it was definitely not a Panaeolus of any kind.


LK,

LK,


--------------------


Edited by Lizard King (06/12/03 06:18 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: Lizard King]
    #1629536 - 06/12/03 07:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, thanks a lot, LK! :laugh:

My book actually has drawings and information for that species, and it all seems to check out.  However, my book says the odor of this species is not distinctive, but the mushrooms I picked had a very noticeable mushroomy smell.  I still think you are right, though.  I dunno why I didn't think it was that one before when I looked through my book... The Peterson Guide isn't that great, though.

I'm going to look this species up online to find out more about it.

I really appreciate the ID, Lizard King!  You rock! :laugh:

One thing, though... I was wondering if you could explain why exactly the gills of this mushroom are a dead giveaway that it's not a Panaeolus.  It would be helpful to know for future identifications.  Thanks again, man! :smile:

-RebelSteve 


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1630061 - 06/12/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

you got me LK! i didnt really notice the gills isue either, whats the whole give-away? except perhaps that psathyrella gills seem to be much closer and more fragile.

hmmm i went through a key and i didnt get to psathyrella for one reason or another. check back with us steve after you compare descriptions of Psth. velutina to your specimen.


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InvisibleEffedS
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1630079 - 06/12/03 11:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I did question th gills yesterday when I looked at this.. but I wanst sure.

Do they bruise blue?


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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: Effed]
    #1630101 - 06/13/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

no they dont bruise blue. :wink:


 


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Offlinedoo
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1630590 - 06/13/03 04:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Psathyrella velutina fools a lot of people. The bastards got me the first time I found'em :grin: I think one reason is a lot of the field guides have shitty pictures of this species. Those things will grow anywhere. I've seen'em fruiting in my gravel driveway.They also seem to have a fairly long growing season in my area.
I think Lk was refering to the color of the gills. The velvety psathyrella has a ( to me anyway) purplish look to it, while pan subbs gills would be brownish when young, and then black looking when mature. I may be wrong on this, he may have meant something else. 

doo   


--------------------
- Arguing with a woman, is like trying to blow out a light bulb-


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Anonymous

Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: doo]
    #1630704 - 06/13/03 07:37 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

is this really a cubensis? http://www.erowid.org/plants/show_image.php?image=mushrooms/psilocybe_cubensis26.jpg looks kind of like that baby specimen you have, Steve


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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1630714 - 06/13/03 07:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That doesn't look like P. velutina to me. Psathyrellas have spotted gills because of uneven ripening of spores. Was that the case with your specimen?


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: ]
    #1631313 - 06/13/03 02:32 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

woah, that is weird... it does look just like the baby in my one pic!  (except ggreatone234's pic is much better, haha! :laugh:)

the mushrooms i found are definitely not p. cubensis, though.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: zeronio]
    #1631320 - 06/13/03 02:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

My book doesn't mention anything about P. velutina's gills being mottled. It just says they are yellowish at first and turn dark brown as they age. I'm almost certain that the mushrooms I found are indeed P. velutina.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Possible Panaeolus Find... ID Help Please! [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1633224 - 06/14/03 03:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I did some searching on the internet and found a few photos of Psathyrella velutina.  They looked kinda different from the mushrooms I found, but I still think this is what they are because all of the information checks out (except the odor issue). 

Anyway... I got more batteries for my digital camera and finally got some pretty good shots of the mushrooms I found. Click here if you want to see them.

I feel kind of stupid now that I thought this might have been a Pan, but I guess that is part of the learning process! :smile:

LK, are you still pretty sure these are Psathyrella velutina based on those new photos?

Thanks again for all the help, everyone! :laugh:

-RebelSteve 

P.S. Here's a link to the photos of P. velutina that I found online (they're at the bottom).  They look a lot different from the mushrooms in my photos, so I'm really wondering if that's what they are...

:confused: 


--------------------
Namaste.


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