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OfflineLion
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We really should cut the defense budget
    #16251548 - 05/18/12 09:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's not that I support excess spending in other areas, or that I don't think defense is a priority; but I think our nation's defense is so mismanaged and over-budgeted that it has created a hugely unsustainable culture.

First of all, almost every department that received money from the defense budget, the CIA, the DoD, the NSA, et al., has huge budget surpluses at the end of the year, and this ends up with managers running around telling their analysts to conjure up contracts so that they will receive the same or greater largesse in the next year's budget.  We've spent untold billions on unnecessary contracts.

Second, our military is basically the bail-out plan for our EU allies and, especially, NATO member states.  We spend to an excess while other similarly wealthy nations spend nearly nothing, counting on our allegiance in the event of a military conflict. 

Lastly, there is the inefficiency of the military, the competing bureaucracies of the various agencies, the ineptitude.  Our soldiers have made numerous complaints about the quality of their equipment and their logistical support.  Granted, improvements have been made over the course of our two decade-long conflicts, but there should be more than enough money to make and keep soldiers content in these areas; instead, they often suffer, while billions of dollars are poured into undeserved, no-bid contracts with little or no oversight.  And every agency wants to be the big dog, so there is a lot of duplication of efforts, and overlapping initiatives that could be streamlined to save taxpayers' money.

I haven't yet looked into the details of Obama's plan to cut defense spending.  It will probably be disastrous, like every other economic initiative he has undertaken.  But I agree that defense spending should be cut, or at least the bureaucracies should be streamlined so as to eliminate the massive waste.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisiblememes
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Lion]
    #16252458 - 05/19/12 01:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's not really what you'd think.


For every 1 department that is scrambling to spend their money every september, there are 3 who had multiple projects that didnt get funded.  Additionally, those 'last minute contracts' still result in tangible deliverables for the government.  Whether it's something simplistic or tangible, it ultimately helps support the overarching mission.

And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system


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Offlinedil
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16254705 - 05/19/12 06:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

US wouldn't spend so much if it didn't have to/choose to police the world.  It's a hard pill to swallow, but it isn't practical to hunt down every "evil" leader on earth.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: dil]
    #16254994 - 05/19/12 08:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.

Again..I'm okay with this, but as long as we judge the effectiveness of an administration on the unemployment rate, it doesn't seem likely.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16255608 - 05/19/12 10:41 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well when the gov't stops spending there will be a downside also.  We have to weigh the cost benefit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #16255680 - 05/19/12 10:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, I agree with the lawyer (ugh :grin:), the US military is the biggest social welfare program.  It's workfare.


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The People's History


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257334 - 05/20/12 10:55 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.




Complete bullshit.  Why not put everybody on the government payroll, then?  There is either a bona fide reason to pay someone for a job or there is not.  Keeping them employed simply for the sake of employment is idiotic and destructive.
Quote:



Again..I'm okay with this, but as long as we judge the effectiveness of an administration on the unemployment rate, it doesn't seem likely.




The unemployment rate is as high as it is because businesses are sitting on huge cash positions out of fear of a continuation of this administration, which is the most business unfriendly in the history of the office.  If Obama is re-elected they will continue to sit on it.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257391 - 05/20/12 11:23 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.




Complete bullshit.



What part of my statement is "bullshit?"  What did I say in that quoted portion that was factually inaccurate?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257397 - 05/20/12 11:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."

No it is one dollar left in the hands of a more efficient manager.  The private market.  Cutting government spending by a dollar does not eliminate a dollar.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257413 - 05/20/12 11:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If the federal government spends 500 billion less on the military...that is 500 billion that is currently going to people's pay that will no longer be going to people's pay...

Those people will have to be fired...

Eventually, industries can retool for civilian purposes...eventually, jobs will rebound...but how can you possibly claim with a straight face that a cut in the military budget wouldn't have an immediate effect on the unemployment rate?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257434 - 05/20/12 11:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If the federal government spends 500 billion less on the military...that is 500 billion that is currently going to people's pay that will no longer be going to people's pay...




That will no longer be taken out of the productive market place.  That is where every dollar the government spends comes from.  It was taken from somewhere else.
Quote:



Those people will have to be fired...




Maybe they will find some useful productivity.  Oh well.  Do you know who else doesn't have a job anymore?  Buggy whip makers.  It is called creative destruction and it is the heart of capitalism and the reason for its success.
Quote:



Eventually, industries can retool for civilian purposes...eventually, jobs will rebound...but how can you possibly claim with a straight face that a cut in the military budget wouldn't have an immediate effect on the unemployment rate?




I don't think in terms of minutes.  If there is no prima facie reason other than employment to spend a dollar then that dollar should not be spent.  That is welfare under a different rubric.  The mob likes to do the same things through its union control.  It's called "featherbedding".  You down with that?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257457 - 05/20/12 11:45 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You're arguing against positions that I never took.

I said it would increase unemployment...That is 100% correct...and any administration that cuts 500 billion from the military will see a spike in unemployment..which will be used against that president in a bid for re-election..

That is the problem with the whole system...no one wants to cut because they are evaluated by unemployment numbers...

As far as your theory that a dollar not spent is a dollar left in the hands of a manager...that's bullshit...Unless/until we cut 1.4 trillion...it is simply a dollar less debt...We could cut a full trillion and still not be able to lower taxes because we're spending more than we take in...AT BEST, it is the interest on that dollar which is saved by the taxpayers.  That is not immediate either...

If the American public would take their collective heads out of the sand and realize that the deficit and debt are big problems...maybe they would get behind cuts and be willing to accept high unemployment during the adjustment period...until that happens, we'll always have politicians who think in 2, 4, and 6 year cycles...always looking toward the next election.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257507 - 05/20/12 12:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm with Enill. If Obama cut the military budget by 100 billion dollars and laid off 40,000 soldiers you can damn well bet the headlines will read "Obama destroys 40,000 jobs" rather than "Obama cuts 100 billion in spending." Fact is any spending cuts to the military that affect military jobs will be met with 100% criticism, no matter how essential it is to reduce federal spending. This makes such cuts politically unfeasible.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16257593 - 05/20/12 12:24 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.
Quote:




I said it would increase unemployment...That is 100% correct...and any administration that cuts 500 billion from the military will see a spike in unemployment..which will be used against that president in a bid for re-election..




I wasn't arguing about election effects or the cowardice of politicians.  I was arguing that what you wrote was bullshit.  Which it was.  I agree with you that most politicians are feckless cunts who care only about getting re-elected.  I do NOT agree with you that a dollar not spent by the government is a dollar not spent.  It is a dollar put in the hands of incompetent at best and corrupt at worst morons.  And by morons I mean government bureaucrats even  more than I mean the politicians.
Quote:



That is the problem with the whole system...no one wants to cut because they are evaluated by unemployment numbers...




Or foreclosure numbers
Quote:



As far as your theory that a dollar not spent is a dollar left in the hands of a manager...that's bullshit...Unless/until we cut 1.4 trillion...it is simply a dollar less debt...We could cut a full trillion and still not be able to lower taxes because we're spending more than we take in...AT BEST, it is the interest on that dollar which is saved by the taxpayers.  That is not immediate either...




I was arguing specific to government dollars vs private dollars.  Are you really going to argue that government managers are more efficient than private managers?  Nor was I speaking of immediacy.  In fact, I thnk I made it clear that immediacy was of no concern to me.
Quote:



If the American public would take their collective heads out of the sand and realize that the deficit and debt are big problems...maybe they would get behind cuts and be willing to accept high unemployment during the adjustment period...until that happens, we'll always have politicians who think in 2, 4, and 6 year cycles...always looking toward the next election.




Which has nothing to do with how you and I must think.  I'm all in favor of getting the foreclosure mess out of the way as soon as possible.  The best way to do that is to say FUCK YOU if you can't pay your mortgage.  I don't care to hear your sob story.  Honor your contract or get the fuck out.


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Offlinemushroom magic
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #16257627 - 05/20/12 12:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: mushroom magic]
    #16257665 - 05/20/12 12:43 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroom magic said:
People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.



I agree with this.  Now tell the government to leave me the fuck along and stop taking half of what I make.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257688 - 05/20/12 12:49 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

mushroom magic said:
People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.



I agree with this.  Now tell the government to leave me the fuck along and stop taking half of what I make.




what tax bracket gets taxed 50%?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16257748 - 05/20/12 01:04 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Let's see, both of us are self employment taxed so that's 15% up to a certain level which is pretty close to what we make but MC goes up now so there you go.  The top tax bracket is now around 35% I live in NY which corns me around 8% plus I pay property tax and sales tax on almost everything I buy, then there are gasoline taxes and phone bill taxes and cable bill taxes and some other taxes I probably don't even know about.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257774 - 05/20/12 01:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Let's see, both of us are self employment taxed so that's 15% up to a certain level which is pretty close to what we make but MC goes up now so there you go.  The top tax bracket is now around 35% I live in NY which corns me around 8% plus I pay property tax and sales tax on almost everything I buy, then there are gasoline taxes and phone bill taxes and cable bill taxes and some other taxes I probably don't even know about.




But you aren't in the top tax bracket, right? Also, sounds like most of your beef is with your local tax structure (cable, phone, gas, property, sales, etc. taxes).


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16257815 - 05/20/12 01:25 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

We are in the top tax bracket.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257818 - 05/20/12 01:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
We are in the top tax bracket.





:ilold:


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16257909 - 05/20/12 01:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Why you laughing?


--------------------


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16258043 - 05/20/12 02:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.




This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16258064 - 05/20/12 02:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.




This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.




Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place.  Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else.  It is a zero sum game even in the short term.  One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16258086 - 05/20/12 02:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place.  Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else.  It is a zero sum game even in the short term.  One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.



That would be true if we had a balanced budget...but this isn't a zero sum game...The deficit isn't coming out of your pocket or mine...it's coming out of some future generation's pocket...only the interest is coming out of mine.

You can say that you're not interested in looking at the short term, but it isn't even that...there is every indication that the debt will NEVER be paid.  It will always exist...meaning that it will always be artificial money upon which we pay the interest ad infinitum...

As such, that money could never go to a person's paycheck unless it was borrowed and spent by the government.  So if we borrow 500 billion less and cut that amount from defense...500 billion less will go to people's paychecks now and forever...

And I'm okay with that.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16258135 - 05/20/12 02:51 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place.  Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else.  It is a zero sum game even in the short term.  One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.



That would be true if we had a balanced budget...but this isn't a zero sum game...The deficit isn't coming out of your pocket or mine...it's coming out of some future generation's pocket...only the interest is coming out of mine.




Well no, counselor, it is most likely to come out of my pocket.  And out of the pockets of the people who would otherwise hire me.
Quote:

 

You can say that you're not interested in looking at the short term, but it isn't even that...there is every indication that the debt will NEVER be paid.  It will always exist...meaning that it will always be artificial money upon which we pay the interest ad infinitum...




This is why you are neither a business person nor an economist.  And didn't you just say that it wasn't coming out of your pocket or mine yet in this sentence you say it is? 
Quote:



As such, that money could never go to a person's paycheck unless it was borrowed and spent by the government.  So if we borrow 500 billion less and cut that amount from defense...500 billion less will go to people's paychecks now and forever...

And I'm okay with that.




No, 500B will go to other people's paychecks producing other things.  Because the government won't be taking it out of the private sector.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16258184 - 05/20/12 03:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Clearly you don't understand the concept of a deficit...We spend 1.4 trillion that is not funded by taxes...so if that 1.4 trillion were not spent, taxes would not go down...There wouldn't be additional money in anyone's pocket...

You've dug your heels in...and you're convinced you're right...I'm certainly convinced I'm right...this conversation can serve no further purpose, dave.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16258214 - 05/20/12 03:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Clearly you don't understand the concept of a deficit...We spend 1.4 trillion that is not funded by taxes...so if that 1.4 trillion were not spent, taxes would not go down...There wouldn't be additional money in anyone's pocket...

You've dug your heels in...and you're convinced you're right...I'm certainly convinced I'm right...this conversation can serve no further purpose, dave.



Except for attorneys, most educated people realize that the bill is going to eventually come out of somebody's pocket.  Everybody not a retarded monkey knows that the bill will come due, one way or the other.  See Europe.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16258471 - 05/20/12 04:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's not really what you'd think...

And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system




My thoughts on the matter, particularly as it relates to the "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party types, income tax, & military spending (note: I said military and not defense bc the former is simply objective instead of making a subjective claim regarding its purpose).

First off, how synonymous is federal "discretionary spending" with being funded by income taxes, or is some "mandatory spending" at the federal level funded by income taxes (as opposed to the two largest entitlement programs, Social Security & Medicare, which I believe at least for the near future are fully funded by separate taxes, specific to those programs)?

If the two are generally synonymous, then it reveals the hypocrisy (or simply the ignorance) of the Tea Party*. Total military-related expenditures are upwards of $1 trillion dollars per year (note: I said total and not simply the Pentagon budget, which I'm aware is only $700 billion). If you add in the interest on the debt as a result of unfunded war & other military expenditures, it's up to like $1.2 trillion per year. Even w/o counting the interest on the debt attributable to military spending, the amount (0.9-1.0 trillion) is ~60% of discretionary spending.

Total income taxes taken in at the federal level are only around $1 trillion per year. If the two are roughly synonymous (discretionary spending & spending funded by income taxes), then it means that about 60 cents of every dollar of income taxes is going to the overall military budget (again, not counting interest payments on the federal debt). How can someone complain about high income taxes if they are obsessive supporters of what is by far consuming more of them than any other program? In fact, they want to increase military spending even further (see Romney's recent op-ed in Chicago Tribune for one of countless examples of this).

Further, Tea Party types probably enjoy the Interstate (and dare I say even public education) as much as the rest of the population, so it's not as if other discretionary spending = welfare. In fact, I think strict welfare programs (such as Food Stamps & TANF, along with foreign humanitarian aid) are only about 3% of the federal budget. Further, things like drug prohibition spending in all its forms they like even more than the general population.

Even if I am missing something, such as income taxes being used to fund (albeit not fully, of course) certain things that I am not aware of, the central point still stands: If you want to increase spending in an area that currently consumes 25-30% of the federal budget, you really should stop complaining about taxes being too high.


* I use this as a distinction from libertarians. Here's a rather comical animated bit made by a libertarian who has attended a Tea party rally, highlighting the differences.

Libertarian Vs. Tea Party


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16258663 - 05/20/12 04:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

It's not really what you'd think...

And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system




My thoughts on the matter, particularly as it relates to the "Taxed Enough Already" Tea Party types, income tax, & military spending (note: I said military and not defense bc the former is simply objective instead of making a subjective claim regarding its purpose).

First off, how synonymous is federal "discretionary spending" with being funded by income taxes, or is some "mandatory spending" at the federal level funded by income taxes (as opposed to the two largest entitlement programs, Social Security & Medicare, which I believe at least for the near future are fully funded by separate taxes, specific to those programs)?


  They are not funded.  They are a Ponzi scheme that is scheduled to collapse.  The fact that they have not collapsed yet is no indicator that they are fully funded.  I don't believe they are funded at all, in fact, they rely solely on continued contributions by people who will never likely see any benefits unless the contribution rate is vastly increased.
Quote:



If the two are generally synonymous, then it reveals the hypocrisy (or simply the ignorance) of the Tea Party*. Total military-related expenditures are upwards of $1 trillion dollars per year (note: I said total and not simply the Pentagon budget, which I'm aware is only $700 billion). If you add in the interest on the debt as a result of unfunded war & other military expenditures, it's up to like $1.2 trillion per year. Even w/o counting the interest on the debt attributable to military spending, the amount (0.9-1.0 trillion) is ~60% of discretionary spending.




I looked up US military expenditures and got 711M.  How you figure the debt on that is 500M a year is beyond me.  But that's fine.  Why is the federal government spending much money on anything else at all.  We are a nation of states.  That's why we exist.
Quote:



Total income taxes taken in at the federal level are only around $1 trillion per year. If the two are roughly synonymous (discretionary spending & spending funded by income taxes), then it means that about 60 cents of every dollar of income taxes is going to the overall military budget (again, not counting interest payments on the federal debt). How can someone complain about high income taxes if they are obsessive supporters of what is by far consuming more of them than any other program? In fact, they want to increase military spending even further (see Romney's recent op-ed in Chicago Tribune for one of countless examples of this).




I believe Romney's point was that Europe was a pile of cunts, which position I share entirely.  Income tax receipts are higher than that and, since the sixties, payroll taxes have been thrown into the general til.  That is why medicare medicaid and soc sec are not fully funded.  They aren't dedicated tax receipts.
Quote:



Further, Tea Party types probably enjoy the Interstate (and dare I say even public education) as much as the rest of the population,




No, we do not enjoy public education.  It has been co-opted by union idiots
Quote:

so it's not as if other discretionary spending = welfare. In fact, I think strict welfare programs (such as Food Stamps & TANF, along with foreign humanitarian aid) are only about 3% of the federal budget. Further, things like drug prohibition spending in all its forms they like even more than the general population.




Drug prohibition is favored by the people, sadly.
Quote:



Even if I am missing something, such as income taxes being used to fund (albeit not fully, of course) certain things that I am not aware of, the central point still stands: If you want to increase spending in an area that currently consumes 25-30% of the federal budget, you really should stop complaining about taxes being too high.




Military spending is going to go down by quite a lot since you made a point that it wasn't just the Pentagon budget.  I agree that we should leave Afghanistan now.  Obama has completely botched it.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16259320 - 05/20/12 08:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

This chart shows federal income tax revenue to be around $1 trillion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S.-income-taxes-out-of-total-taxes.JPG


Quote:

Drug prohibition is favored by the people, sadly.




Ugh. I very clearly said higher than the general population; I did not say exclusively or anything to that effect.


Quote:

I looked up US military expenditures and got 711M.  How you figure the debt on that is 500M a year is beyond me.





I think you meant billion. As I said, I acknowledged the Pentagon budget to be that. But this does not include things like VA, college tuition, nuclear weapons (that's Dept. of Energy), CIA drone program & other activities, etc. Adding these all up you get at least $200 billion if not $300 billion... which is the $0.9-1.0 trillion figure that I used. The $1.2-1.3 trillion figure (which I stated was optional to use) came from interest payments on the debt due to wars & military spending in general.


Quote:

Military spending is going to go down by quite a lot since you made a point that it wasn't just the Pentagon budget.




It might go down a little if leaving Afghanistan (for the most part), but Obama seems content to keep it (overall military spending) at $900+ billion annually, & Romney would probably be swell to increase it to $1+ trillion or more.


Quote:

From Romney's op-ed: Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has plainly said that such a reduction means "we would not any longer be a global power."




What BS. If the U.S. were to drop military spending by a mere $100 billion per year, it would still be several times greater than the world's #2 spender, China. Just another gov't. bureaucracy playing the doomsday card to try to prevent any cuts from its bloated budget.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #16259476 - 05/20/12 08:41 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Enlil on this thread.  His arguments are correct.

Here's my observation on zappa.  If you ever even suggest that anything the Government does might be good, his brain switches to "does not compute - must use ad hominem attacks" mode.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16259637 - 05/20/12 09:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16259683 - 05/20/12 09:25 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here's my observation on zappa.  If you ever even suggest that anything the Government does might be good, his brain switches to "does not compute - must use ad hominem attacks" mode.



There are certainly "good things that the government does".  However, there isn't anything "the government does good" 

(grammer fairy says:  there isn't anything the government does well. I left it as 'good' for the wording's sake)




Take my word for it.  I've worked in government at the local and federal levels.  Government employees are, on-the-whole (yes, there are exceptions), inherently lazy, and government processes are exceptionally inefficient.

TRUST ME.  If you knew the federal acquisitions process, you'd be like "goddamn, thats so rediculous, how is it that we still manage to spend trillions every year?".


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16259735 - 05/20/12 09:36 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

This ones getting good...:popcorn:


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16259793 - 05/20/12 09:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.




This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.




Not if that dollar came out of a paycheck in the first place.  Every nickel the government spends was taken from someone else who couldn't spend it somewhere else.  It is a zero sum game even in the short term.  One guy not having a dollar that the government paid him means one guy having a dollar the government didn't take.




You know, over the years, I'm glad I haven't just ignored what you said. I still think you're a bastard, but then again if I lived in new york city I'd be stabbing people and tearing their eyes out.

I never like tax, it's just a fancy way of saying "give us your money or I'll cut you". It is taking money by force (don't believe me? don't pay your tax, see what happens) and just like a mugger on a street using my money to buy something with it that I don't want (like, bullets for a gun to hold up people with, heroin, a mobile phone) the government uses my money to fund wars to destablise countries I haven't even heard of which will then have a whole host of people angry and wanting to kill us, using more of my money on weaponised culture and entertainment (in the UK, we have a ministry of culture, paid by tax, to push an agenda) and spending my money on ugly shit I didn't want nor was I asked about, nor was anyone else asked about.

But when I want something, I'll go for it and buy it. If I want food, I find someplace that is not part of a mega international franchise, I'll spend it in a place where the people will take the money, and then it'll go around the community, yadda yadda.

I'm not going to agree with a whole lot of what you say, I think you have way too much invested in the system and I'm sure you'll ask yourself someday what's it all for when you can't take it with you, but by fuck you make a lot more sense than most "communism for everyone!" fantasists.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16259918 - 05/20/12 10:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....



I was just saying your deficit logic was correct; I wasn't saying you were against spending cuts.

Quote:

Enlil said:
and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...



You and I disagree about what we care about; that says a lot about the kind of person you are.

The trick is to fix the economy, THEN reduce the debt.  There should NEVER be deficit spending when the economy is good.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16259936 - 05/20/12 10:24 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That wasn't what I was suggesting at all...I am all for cutting defense spending....and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it...




But you are ignoring the jobs that would be created because of it though.  The notion that we have a high military budget is just to make busy work so that their are more jobs is stupid.  Economics doesnt work that way. 

You say this, but its not quite true,

Quote:

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period




For every dollar cut there is one dollar going to a different paycheck.  The money doesn't just go away...


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: DieCommie]
    #16260051 - 05/20/12 10:42 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But you are ignoring the jobs that would be created because of it though. 

For every dollar cut there is one dollar going to a different paycheck.  The money doesn't just go away...



Obviously, neither you nor zappa were able to follow Enlil's arguement about deficits.  No jobs would be created without increasing the deficit further.  And increasing the deficit isn't what people want to do right now.

As he said, if there were no debt, THEN we could either use that extra money to pay for tax cuts or to improve roads,schools, etc. thereby creating jobs.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16260089 - 05/20/12 10:51 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You can do that with debt too though. :confused:


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #16261025 - 05/21/12 02:21 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'll put it in different terms.  With a balanced budget, everything is a trade off.  If you cut here, you gain there, and you debate what the country’s priorities are.

However, with deficit spending, every deficit dollar is an extra dollar in the economy that appears that otherwise wouldn’t be there.  So it helps the economy today, but cost us later.  Similarly, cutting from the deficit has zero benefit today, (although it lowers costs in the future).  It’s money that simply goes away; it doesn’t show up anywhere else (though in the future, we’ll have less debt).

What leader wants to take from today, so that the next guy can better off?  As Enlil said, it will only cost jobs if we reduce the deficit.  No one would be better off today.

That's why deficit spending should never be allowed, unless the economy is serious trouble and in need of help.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16261547 - 05/21/12 07:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You can do that with debt too though. :confused:



This is irrelevant...the whole point of cutting spending is to reduce deficit...not to spend the same money elsewhere...

If you cut the amount you borrow by 500 billion and spend 500 billion less on defense, that 500 billion is gone...it's not in someone else's pocket...it's not going to another person to create jobs...it never existed..

The 1.4 trillion dollars that we will borrow this year is created out of thin air...If we borrowed .5 trillion less..there would be .5 trillion less created out of thin air and therefore not available to go to anyone...private or public sector.

Creating jobs is a noble goal, but it's just shoveling shit against the tide when we're borrowing more every year.  Zappa has this dream that the national debt will be paid off, but that's not going to happen.  The best we can hope for is that we will get to a point where the national debt is no longer being added to, and inflation makes the debt a less significant amount of money.

The country is like a family that gets 2-3 new credit cards every year and maxes them out.  It doesn't matter if they keep getting pay raises...it won't ever be enough to outpace the amount of debt that is amassing.  It wouldn't matter if we had 0% unemployment in this country.  That would not create enough revenue to keep up with the national debt we are amassing.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #16261791 - 05/21/12 10:21 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I agree with Enlil on this thread.  His arguments are correct.

Here's my observation on zappa.  If you ever even suggest that anything the Government does might be good, his brain switches to "does not compute - must use ad hominem attacks" mode.





What ad hominem?  In what way is he correct that we can borrow and borrow and borrow and never get the bill?  Most people know that the piper gets paid, one way or the other.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16261984 - 05/21/12 11:42 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
You can do that with debt too though. :confused:



This is irrelevant...the whole point of cutting spending is to reduce deficit...not to spend the same money elsewhere...

If you cut the amount you borrow by 500 billion and spend 500 billion less on defense, that 500 billion is gone...it's not in someone else's pocket...it's not going to another person to create jobs...it never existed..

The 1.4 trillion dollars that we will borrow this year is created out of thin air...If we borrowed .5 trillion less..there would be .5 trillion less created out of thin air and therefore not available to go to anyone...private or public sector.

Creating jobs is a noble goal, but it's just shoveling shit against the tide when we're borrowing more every year.  Zappa has this dream that the national debt will be paid off, but that's not going to happen.  The best we can hope for is that we will get to a point where the national debt is no longer being added to, and inflation makes the debt a less significant amount of money.

The country is like a family that gets 2-3 new credit cards every year and maxes them out.  It doesn't matter if they keep getting pay raises...it won't ever be enough to outpace the amount of debt that is amassing.  It wouldn't matter if we had 0% unemployment in this country.  That would not create enough revenue to keep up with the national debt we are amassing.





"the $1.4 trillion we borrow is created out of thin air"  Under normal market conditions, the bonds are issued onto the market, and $1.4 trillion worth of dollars is extracted from the economy to purchase the bonds. Today, the Federal Reserve buys almost all of the bonds, so yes, the money to purchases the bonds is created out of thin air (QE or money printing).

The $16 trillion of debt can never be paid off, we are getting to the point where if interest rates even moved just a few percentage points higher, just making the interest payments on the debt would be extremely challenging.

Tax revenue has basically been flat the last 12 months, what confirms there is no growth taking place in this economy, even if the GDP numbers say 2.0% growth.

The debt will be dealt with through currency devaluation, as we all know we can never pay the debt with today's dollars. The big losers in this game, US bond holders, holders of US dollars, and the average US citizen who now has 1/2 of the purchasing power than once had.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: qman]
    #16262200 - 05/21/12 12:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Today, the Federal Reserve buys almost all of the bonds, so yes, the money to purchases the bonds is created out of thin air (QE or money printing).





The numbers I'm finding show that the federal reserve holds about 12% of U.S. debt. The S.S. trust fund holds about 19% of our debt. China holds about 8%.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16262292 - 05/21/12 01:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

qman said:
Today, the Federal Reserve buys almost all of the bonds, so yes, the money to purchases the bonds is created out of thin air (QE or money printing).





The numbers I'm finding show that the federal reserve holds about 12% of U.S. debt. The S.S. trust fund holds about 19% of our debt. China holds about 8%.




Fed balance sheet is listed around $2.8 trillion today, and they just started the QE program in early 2009. While it is listed that the Fed bought 61% of all bonds last year, the big banks bought the remaining amount, funded by the Federal Reserve.

Who is going to buy the debt for the remaining months this year and next year? China has stopped, Russia sold all their US bonds and wants no part of it, Europe, UK and Japan are all broke. The only buyer moving forward will be the Fed and its printing press, no other choice.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16262368 - 05/21/12 01:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
You can do that with debt too though. :confused:



This is irrelevant...the whole point of cutting spending is to reduce deficit...not to spend the same money elsewhere...





Why not?  Why isnt the point to spend the same money elsewhere?  I think the point could be and is both of those, to reduce the deficit/spend that money elsewhere/put it an another workers pocket.  For a lot of people the main point of reducing defense spending is to curtail the military, not necessarily save money.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16262643 - 05/21/12 02:31 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
In what way is he correct that we can borrow and borrow and borrow and never get the bill? 



When did I say this?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16262679 - 05/21/12 02:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

"The 1.4 trillion dollars that we will borrow this year is created out of thin air.."


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16263020 - 05/21/12 04:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
"The 1.4 trillion dollars that we will borrow this year is created out of thin air.."



And how is that an equivalent of "we can borrow and borrow and borrow and never get the bill?"


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16266366 - 05/22/12 07:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Because you think money comes out of thin air.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266493 - 05/22/12 08:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> Because you think money comes out of thin air.

With fractional reserve banking, every time a loan is granted, money is literally created from nowhere.  With a 0.1 reserve ratio, a bank holding $1000 in reserve can (working with another bank) create $9000 in loans.  Of the $9000, only $1000 exists, while $8000 was created from nowhere.  The system works great as long as there is not a run on the bank (where everybody tries to pull their deposits out at the same time) and as long as the entities that get loans do not default.

The people that don't like the federal reserve (it is really fractional reserve banking they have an issue with) dislike the fact that there is no way the hole created by the banks loaning money can ever be repaid.  The system creates a state where the size of the debt is always larger than amount of money that exists.  This is fine as long as the economy continues to grow, which tends to happen as long as the population continues to grow, but is very bad should deflation occur.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Seuss]
    #16266509 - 05/22/12 09:00 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Our dollar bills a re promissory notes.  All money is full faith and credit.  So are IOUs.  An IOU doesn't come out of thin air any more than any one of our dollars.  The non-thin air that is going to come due will either be the repayment of the debt or the devaluation of the currency.  Neither is thin air.  Both are costs.  Big costs.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266571 - 05/22/12 09:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Because you think money comes out of thin air.



Believing that money comes out of thin air and believing that we can borrow ad infinitum without the bill ever coming due are not the same at all..

I guess that's why you're in construction and not in a field that requires precise use of language or reading comprehension.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16266696 - 05/22/12 10:21 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Because you think money comes out of thin air.



Believing that money comes out of thin air and believing that we can borrow ad infinitum without the bill ever coming due are not the same at all..

I guess that's why you're in construction and not in a field that requires precise use of language or reading comprehension.



:rofl2:  Oh that was funny as fuck.  Wasn't the term "weasel words" invented to describe lawyer speak?


I'm sorry but IOUs and currency devaluation are no more thin air than the dollar itself.  It says so right on the bill.  "Federal Reserve Note".  If it came out of thin air there would be no cost.  Typical lawyer thinks contracts are imaginary.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266702 - 05/22/12 10:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Again...what does any of that have to do with believing that we can borrow and borrow without the bill ever coming due?

If you're going to claim that I believe something, maybe you should have something to back it up other than pure speculation...


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Seuss]
    #16266703 - 05/22/12 10:23 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Because you think money comes out of thin air.

With fractional reserve banking, every time a loan is granted, money is literally created from nowhere.  With a 0.1 reserve ratio, a bank holding $1000 in reserve can (working with another bank) create $9000 in loans.  Of the $9000, only $1000 exists, while $8000 was created from nowhere.  The system works great as long as there is not a run on the bank (where everybody tries to pull their deposits out at the same time) and as long as the entities that get loans do not default.

The people that don't like the federal reserve (it is really fractional reserve banking they have an issue with) dislike the fact that there is no way the hole created by the banks loaning money can ever be repaid.  The system creates a state where the size of the debt is always larger than amount of money that exists.  This is fine as long as the economy continues to grow, which tends to happen as long as the population continues to grow, but is very bad should deflation occur.





Well said, most people don't understand that banks are very risky leveraged investments on the economy. They are money machines when there is solid economic growth, but when things turn downward for several years in a row, this leveraged investment becomes insolvent in little time. Most banks in the US and Europe are insolvent today, they are living a lie with mark to market accounting.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266726 - 05/22/12 10:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> An IOU doesn't come out of thin air any more than any one of our dollars.

With fractional reserve banking, the money that backs the IOU does come from nowhere, and is backed by a promise that the borrower will repay.  When a loan is created, the bank does not actually possess the money that is being loaned (as an asset or as physical currency), nor does the bank borrow the money that is being loaned.  The money magically appears from nowhere, backed by the borrowers promise to repay.

As long as entities continue to borrow money, then money is created, therefore there is money to repay the loans.  Unfortunately, the hole created by the loans is always larger than the money being created (to fill the hole), thus the system will forever be in favor of the bankers.  Personally, as long as the bankers don't get greedy, then I don't view this as a bad thing because it allows the economy to grow very quickly.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Seuss]
    #16266746 - 05/22/12 10:38 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

My entire point is that the Promise is not "thin air" any more than any other financial instrument.

If you want to make an argument that it is all a house of cards and magical thinking........


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266760 - 05/22/12 10:44 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
In what way is he correct that we can borrow and borrow and borrow and never get the bill? 



This is what you said...this clearly assumes that I have claimed that we can borrow and borrow and borrow and never get the bill...

I think it's clear now that I never said anything of the kind...and you're just trying to twist other things I've said into the equivalent of that statement...

Are you that incapable of admitting that you're wrong?  By now, you know that I never made that statement...is it so hard for you to just admit it?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16266820 - 05/22/12 11:07 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> My entire point is that the Promise is not "thin air" any more than any other financial instrument.  If you want to make an argument that it is all a house of cards and magical thinking........

Your promise, my promise, and Enlil's promise are all good, but the promise made by the bum down the street, that the bank was forced to accept because of the CRA and rabid lawyers like Obama, is worth less than the used toilet paper that I flushed this morning.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16266930 - 05/22/12 11:41 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:  doubt you'll ever hear it. The cost would be too great.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16266931 - 05/22/12 11:42 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah...I suspect you're correct.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16267731 - 05/22/12 03:07 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.




This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.




You reference the unemployment rate being effected but that is not necessarily so.  Some people will ose jobs if the defense budget is cut but that will mean more money kept in the private sector and that might well mean MORE jobs, not less since military contractors probably account for higher pay rates due to their technical nature.  You were making a macro-economic argument by bringing in the unemployment rate.  Yes some people will lose jobs, others will gain jobs.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16268175 - 05/22/12 04:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.




This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.




You reference the unemployment rate being effected but that is not necessarily so.  Some people will ose jobs if the defense budget is cut but that will mean more money kept in the private sector and that might well mean MORE jobs, not less since military contractors probably account for higher pay rates due to their technical nature.  You were making a macro-economic argument by bringing in the unemployment rate.  Yes some people will lose jobs, others will gain jobs.



Again...how does that equate to me saying that we can borrow and borrow and the the bill will never come due? You keep talking about everything else, but you can't back up your own statements...Where did I say that we can borrow and borrow and borrow without the bill ever coming due?

As far as your theory that cutting defense spending would create jobs elsewhere, that's nonsense...if the money is cut...it never gets spent...it doesn't keep more money in the private sector because the spending isn't even funded by taxpayers of today...it is funded by hypothetical taxpayers generations down the road...so it saves today's taxpayers nothing...and therefore leaves them no extra money to create jobs.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16268246 - 05/22/12 04:52 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:


This statement is 100% true and accurate within the context of how it was written...

For every dollar cut, there is one less dollar going to a paycheck...period...It isn't a matter of who is managing that dollar...if someone cuts a dollar from defense, some defense company has one less dollar to pay a worker...There's no inaccuracy there...

You're making some macro level argument about how dollars are better off in private hands...that's not the issue...I happen to agree with you on this.  It is, however, a FACT that when defense budget is cut, that is less money going to people's paychecks...

I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket...it'll come around eventually.  But to claim that cutting a dollar doesn't take it out of a paycheck is nonsense.




You reference the unemployment rate being effected but that is not necessarily so.  Some people will ose jobs if the defense budget is cut but that will mean more money kept in the private sector and that might well mean MORE jobs, not less since military contractors probably account for higher pay rates due to their technical nature.  You were making a macro-economic argument by bringing in the unemployment rate.  Yes some people will lose jobs, others will gain jobs.



Again...how does that equate to me saying that we can borrow and borrow and the the bill will never come due? You keep talking about everything else, but you can't back up your own statements...Where did I say that we can borrow and borrow and borrow without the bill ever coming due?

As far as your theory that cutting defense spending would create jobs elsewhere, that's nonsense...if the money is cut...it never gets spent...it doesn't keep more money in the private sector because the spending isn't even funded by taxpayers of today...it is funded by hypothetical taxpayers generations down the road...so it saves today's taxpayers nothing...and therefore leaves them no extra money to create jobs.




:facepalm: The money, even future tax receipts or promises or devaluation, does come from somewhere.  It comes from future business.  Every business person knows this.  You seem to think that spending money you don't have comes at no cost.  It carries a heavy cost and it isn't just interest.  It is the reasonable fear among investors that they are going to get fucked.  The more the debt increases the less likely they are to act  Businesses are sitting on historic amounts of cash.  Do you know why they aren't investing and hiring?  Because they see a rising debt and know that they are going to be the only ones asked to pay the bill if the current idiot remains in office. 

Obama is going to be behind the unemployment eightball no matter what since they cook the books on that stat.  If people start hiring again then the vast number of people who quit looking and got off the rolls of the unemployed will come back to be counted as in the work force, which will push the UE number back up.  Unless, of course, they figure a new way


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16268288 - 05/22/12 04:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Now you're saying that a reduction in the deficit would cause hiring because businesses would have more confidence in the economy...That's probably accurate, but it's pure speculation to claim that a 500 billion dollar cut in defense spending would create enough confidence that the private sector would invest 500 billion in creating new jobs.  It's possible, of course.  It's possible that twice as many jobs would be created.  It's also possible that 1/10 as many would be created.  It's simply impossible to tell. 

It certainly isn't the dollar for dollar match that you were preaching early in this thread....and it is absolute fact that 500 billion in defense cuts comes out of people's paychecks.  If that is offset by an increase in job creation as a result of increase confidence..that's awesome...but that is simply a gamble at this point.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16268324 - 05/22/12 05:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Now you're saying that a reduction in the deficit would cause hiring because businesses would have more confidence in the economy...That's probably accurate, but it's pure speculation to claim that a 500 billion dollar cut in defense spending would create enough confidence that the private sector would invest 500 billion in creating new jobs.  It's possible, of course.  It's possible that twice as many jobs would be created.  It's also possible that 1/10 as many would be created.  It's simply impossible to tell.




Once again, I don't think in terms of weekly unemployment reports
Quote:

 

It certainly isn't the dollar for dollar match that you were preaching early in this thread....and it is absolute fact that 500 billion in defense cuts comes out of people's paychecks.  If that is offset by an increase in job creation as a result of increase confidence..that's awesome...but that is simply a gamble at this point.




Hell, I think it will be better, by far, than dollar for dollar.  But not until the November results are in.  They aren't going to be firing anybody tomorrow nor are they going to fire all of them at once.  You cannot operate an economy by making jobs king.  They have to be a derivative of profit.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16268393 - 05/22/12 05:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That would be great.  Like I said, I'm all for cutting defense...I'm all for cutting all kinds of shit...I'm all for cutting until we've balanced the budget, at least...and I would back any administration that would do that despite the unemployment it created...

Of course, no democrat or republican is going to cut like that...both parties want to spend as much as possible..the only dispute is where to spend the money.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16268603 - 05/22/12 05:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I guess one could always examine the return of investment ROI when it comes to defense spending. Does this investment benefit the country as a whole, or is this spending wasteful.

A mis-allocation of capital is never a good idea, if the withdrawal of that capital results in job losses, too bad.

This economy is so fragile at this point that any cut in defense spending would most likey produce a negative result, and the benefit would take years to show up.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: qman]
    #16268989 - 05/22/12 07:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

So...... about that defense budget....


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16271031 - 05/23/12 02:03 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

We should distinguish the difference between defense spending and militarism. Defense spending is the money spent to actually defend our own soil. Militarism is all the contracts that fatten the pocket of corporations and people. Cut the militarism but keep the defense spending.

RON PAUL 2012!!!


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: bongjuice420]
    #16271591 - 05/23/12 06:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> RON PAUL 2012 2016!!!

Fixed that for you.  (Ron Paul dropped out of the 2012 race.)


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16273164 - 05/23/12 03:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You reference the unemployment rate being effected but that is not necessarily so.  Some people will lose jobs if the defense budget is cut but that will mean more money kept in the private sector and that might well mean MORE jobs, not less since military contractors probably account for higher pay rates due to their technical nature.



You still don't get it zap.  Cutting $500 billion will necessarily cut $500 billion worth of jobs (less whatever amount of that was profit - let's say $50 billion).

So cutting $450 billion will be a cut of approximately 4.5 million jobs, with not a dime more appearing anywhere in the economy (it's only future savings).

Laying off 4.5 million people with no return today is NOT something that I believe will excite Wall Street, as you like to think.  That's 4.5 million people that won't have money to spend and are now living on the Government tit, reducing the future savings their layoffs were meant to offset.

I'm all for shrinking spending and the military.  But it has to be done slowly, and AFTER the economy recovers.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16273309 - 05/23/12 04:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You reference the unemployment rate being effected but that is not necessarily so.  Some people will lose jobs if the defense budget is cut but that will mean more money kept in the private sector and that might well mean MORE jobs, not less since military contractors probably account for higher pay rates due to their technical nature.



You still don't get it zap.  Cutting $500 billion will necessarily cut $500 billion worth of jobs (less whatever amount of that was profit - let's say $50 billion).




Nope.  There is no reason to believe that it will happen all at once or that these skilled people will not be re-employed in other venues.  Government jobs are vulture jobs.
Quote:



So cutting $450 billion will be a cut of approximately 4.5 million jobs, with not a dime more appearing anywhere in the economy (it's only future savings).




Only future savings?
Quote:

 

Laying off 4.5 million people with no return today is NOT something that I believe will excite Wall Street, as you like to think.  That's 4.5 million people that won't have money to spend and are now living on the Government tit, reducing the future savings their layoffs were meant to offset.

I'm all for shrinking spending and the military.  But it has to be done slowly, and AFTER the economy recovers.




It can't possibly happen all at once.  Are you well?  Has Congress ever made anything that happens all at once.  Now you're raising the scary unicorn.  It will be a slow diminution of the MI complex, probably not as much as you think.  Do you really think that outside of 10% for profit every cent is labor?  Just fucking wow.

Is it or is it not a good idea to reduce government spending for things we don't need even though that will mean fewer people working for the government?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16274077 - 05/23/12 06:38 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you really think that outside of 10% for profit every cent is labor?  Just fucking wow.




Yes...with the exception of lease payments on real property and profits shared as dividends, every cent is labor..Every raw material purchased was mined, smelted, milled, logged, hauled, etc...Every cent is someone's paycheck....

It doesn't matter if the cuts come in the form of direct government firing...or less purchases...everything purchased is made with labor.



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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16274262 - 05/23/12 07:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No materials costs, huh?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16274316 - 05/23/12 07:30 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

materials not bought by the government mean less revenues for government suppliers, which implies less jobs needed at those companies, and so on and so forth.

every cut, whether directly to a paycheck or not, will affect either (a) a job, or (b) demand for a product whose supply is linked to a job.

DIrect or indirect, the cut hurts jobs.






not on either side of thsi argument - just throwing that out there.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16274865 - 05/23/12 09:30 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No materials costs, huh?



Lol...where do you think materials come from?  If you need 2x4s, do you think they just put cash in the ground and 2x4's pop out?  2x4s are from trees cut down by people who get paychecks...then those trees are put on trucks driven by people with paychecks...to a mill..where people with paychecks run machines built by people with paychecks...electricity powers the machines...electricity comes through wires put up by people with paychecks...and made of copper which was mined by people with paychecks...and the electricity was generated in a power plant run by people with paychecks...who feed coal into the furnaces...guess where coal comes from...you guessed it..the ground...guess how it gets out of the ground...people with paychecks take it out...


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16277274 - 05/24/12 09:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

meams said:
materials not bought by the government mean less revenues for government suppliers, which implies less jobs needed at those companies, and so on and so forth.

every cut, whether directly to a paycheck or not, will affect either (a) a job, or (b) demand for a product whose supply is linked to a job.

DIrect or indirect, the cut hurts jobs.






not on either side of thsi argument - just throwing that out there.




No.  Firing all the buggy whip makers did not damage the economy.  You cannot take a macro argument and apply it to specific individuals.  It is called creative destruction and it benefits the macro every time. 

By the way, since when is job creation a goal of business?  Or government.  I use that metric to describe failed economic policies.  It is an indicator.  As a business it is generally for the best to do without employees as much as possible.  It is also better for the whole.  It frees people to do other things.  That is, if they are willing to expend the energy to get off their asses and do so rather than wait for the government check.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16277281 - 05/24/12 09:41 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No materials costs, huh?



Lol...where do you think materials come from?  If you need 2x4s, do you think they just put cash in the ground and 2x4's pop out?  2x4s are from trees cut down by people who get paychecks...then those trees are put on trucks driven by people with paychecks...to a mill..where people with paychecks run machines built by people with paychecks...electricity powers the machines...electricity comes through wires put up by people with paychecks...and made of copper which was mined by people with paychecks...and the electricity was generated in a power plant run by people with paychecks...who feed coal into the furnaces...guess where coal comes from...you guessed it..the ground...guess how it gets out of the ground...people with paychecks take it out...



Yes they take it out and no they don't get all the money involved. 

I am mystified as to why you want to bring buggy whips back.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16277432 - 05/24/12 10:37 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I am mystified as to why you want to bring buggy whips back.



When did I say this?

Or are you just making shit up again like you did before in this thread?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16277451 - 05/24/12 10:43 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You defend employing people for the sake of employing people and are utterly ignorant of the concept of creative economic destruction.  Either there is a reason to do the job or there is not.  If there is no reason, other than protecting a job, then useful work will be curtailed and other jobs that are more productive will be lost because of the improper allocation of human resources by a meddled market.  This is not that tough a concept.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16277493 - 05/24/12 10:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You defend employing people for the sake of employing people and are utterly ignorant of the concept of creative economic destruction.  Either there is a reason to do the job or there is not.  If there is no reason, other than protecting a job, then useful work will be curtailed and other jobs that are more productive will be lost because of the improper allocation of human resources by a meddled market.  This is not that tough a concept.



Where have I ever defended employing people for the sake of employing people?

Are you that bad at reading?  Or is it that you just have a really bad memory?  Here...let me refresh your recollection with some things I've said in this thread:
Quote:



"I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.  Again..I'm okay with this.."

"I am more than happy to see 1.4 trillion dollars cut from many different things and let the unemployment rate skyrocket"

"...500 billion less will go to people's paychecks now and forever...And I'm okay with that"

"I am all for cutting defense spending....and I couldn't care less how many jobs are lost because of it..."





So...please explain to me how I have "defend[ed] employing people for the sake of employing people."


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16277709 - 05/24/12 12:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Isn't that your whole whine.  That jobs (total) will be lost.  No, certain jobs will be lost by certain people but useful production will lead to more useful employment by other people (you referenced the unemployment rate so you don't get to play the micro-card).


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16277760 - 05/24/12 12:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I don't care if jobs get lost...but voters often do...that's my point.  My point is that no administration will cut defense spending by a lot because elections are largely determined by the unemployment rate...


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16277893 - 05/24/12 12:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't care if jobs get lost...but voters often do...that's my point.  My point is that no administration will cut defense spending by a lot because elections are largely determined by the unemployment rate...



And yet you continue to labor under the misapprehension that any defense cuts will result in immediate job losses or long term job losses.  They won't cut defense spending by much because of pork and the global void that will be created if we opt out.  Who will fill that void?  China and Russia?  Oh yeah, that's a great idea.  Cede world security to those punks.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16278136 - 05/24/12 01:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Cede world security to those punks.



I'm not all that concerned about world security either.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16278162 - 05/24/12 01:34 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That's what Clinton said.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16278294 - 05/24/12 02:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Good for him....I'm sure lots of people have said that.

I can tolerate a terrorist attack every decade or so...That's the world we live in...it's unrealistic to think that we'll ever be "safe" and I really don't need my government on that job.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16278620 - 05/24/12 03:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's what Clinton said.



...and he gave us a surplus.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16279183 - 05/24/12 06:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's what Clinton said.



...and he gave us a surplus.




Having a surplus for a few years during the Clinton Administration had very little to do with Clinton or his polices. Sometimes it's called being in the right place at the right time.

We had a speculative stock market bubble, and technology sector, capital gains were flowing in on speculative gains, it was short lived and crashed shortly after he left, taking credit for this situation is laughable.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: qman]
    #16282349 - 05/25/12 09:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's what Clinton said.




And what do you base that on?

Quote:

qman said:
Having a surplus for a few years during the Clinton Administration had very little to do with Clinton or his polices. Sometimes it's called being in the right place at the right time.


We had a speculative stock market bubble, and technology sector, capital gains were flowing in on speculative gains, it was short lived and crashed shortly after he left, taking credit for this situation is laughable.




This kind of economic prosperity was short-lived due to Bush's economic policies, which completely sucked.

I think you don't realize what kind of economic situation the country was in when he was elected, nor the steps that he took at the beginning of his term to stabilize the economy.
It'd be ignorant to think that the federal administration doesn't set the tone and the framework for the economy, and often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go. The basic picture is that Clinton's handling of the situation sent clear signals to the markets that the federal government was going to become much more financially disciplined at a time when things were pretty sour economically.

I like this quote, from a senior fellow from the Cato Institute:

Quote:


http://meetthefacts.com/tag/omnibus-budget-reconciliation-act-of-1993/
“The economy did do well under Clinton, but that was because of other policies he adopted and in spite of the ’93 tax increase,” Mitchell said, citing lower government spending as a share of gross domestic product, approval of the North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization, welfare reform, farm-subsidy reform. “These are the
policies that boosted the economy. The tax increases in 1993 hurt, but were more than offset by other changes.”




The other important point to take into consideration is that, even if you consider that a major factor in the existence of the surplus, even if you don't want to admit that his policies played a good role in facilitating it's existence, was a speculative stock market bubble and the gains in tax revenue from the high-tech sector, and you consider that these things were short-lived, it's a simple fact that, if his policies continued, the federal government would have been much more capable of responding to the financial crisis and markets would have had much more faith in the stability of the country and it's ability to pay off it's debt.

He advocated to save the surplus for Social Security :shocked:, because he vetoed tax-cut bills that would have given it away :shocked:, and because he was actually interested in paying off the debt. I really like his response to the tax payer's in addressing Republicans who were clamoring to give the surplus back to them because it's their money: It'd be like getting a check for a million dollars in the mail from Publisher's Clearing House and going out and spending all of your money. :smirk:

It's a damn shame that he couldn't have ran for eight more years. It's a damn shame that Al Gore didn't get just a few more votes to sink the deal.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16282461 - 05/25/12 10:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's what Clinton said.




And what do you base that on?

Quote:

qman said:
Having a surplus for a few years during the Clinton Administration had very little to do with Clinton or his polices. Sometimes it's called being in the right place at the right time.


We had a speculative stock market bubble, and technology sector, capital gains were flowing in on speculative gains, it was short lived and crashed shortly after he left, taking credit for this situation is laughable.




This kind of economic prosperity was short-lived due to Bush's economic policies, which completely sucked.

I think you don't realize what kind of economic situation the country was in when he was elected, nor the steps that he took at the beginning of his term to stabilize the economy.
It'd be ignorant to think that the federal administration doesn't set the tone and the framework for the economy, and often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go. The basic picture is that Clinton's handling of the situation sent clear signals to the markets that the federal government was going to become much more financially disciplined at a time when things were pretty sour economically.

I like this quote, from a senior fellow from the Cato Institute:

Quote:


http://meetthefacts.com/tag/omnibus-budget-reconciliation-act-of-1993/
“The economy did do well under Clinton, but that was because of other policies he adopted and in spite of the ’93 tax increase,” Mitchell said, citing lower government spending as a share of gross domestic product, approval of the North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization, welfare reform, farm-subsidy reform. “These are the
policies that boosted the economy. The tax increases in 1993 hurt, but were more than offset by other changes.”




The other important point to take into consideration is that, even if you consider that a major factor in the existence of the surplus, even if you don't want to admit that his policies played a good role in facilitating it's existence, was a speculative stock market bubble and the gains in tax revenue from the high-tech sector, and you consider that these things were short-lived, it's a simple fact that, if his policies continued, the federal government would have been much more capable of responding to the financial crisis and markets would have had much more faith in the stability of the country and it's ability to pay off it's debt.

He advocated to save the surplus for Social Security :shocked:, because he vetoed tax-cut bills that would have given it away :shocked:, and because he was actually interested in paying off the debt. I really like his response to the tax payer's in addressing Republicans who were clamoring to give the surplus back to them because it's their money: It'd be like getting a check for a million dollars in the mail from Publisher's Clearing House and going out and spending all of your money. :smirk:

It's a damn shame that he couldn't have ran for eight more years. It's a damn shame that Al Gore didn't get just a few more votes to sink the deal.





I did not dislike Clinton, I am just stating that his polices had nothing to do with a surplus, or the economic propensity that took place during his tenure.

What was so disciplined about a policy that allowed margin debt on the stock exchanges to hit all-time highs and allowed tons of unproductive business to start up and eventually crash to the ground?

Today we are still paying for its sins, the NASDAQ is still down -45% from 12 years ago, and even the general markets are still down from that time. Having a speculative bubble that crashes is highly destructive to the economy.

The passing of NAFTA and WTO helped ship millions of high paying manufacturing jobs overseas, and is a major reason why this country is in the shape it is today, while it helped the bottom line of corporate America, it has slaughtered the working class to this day.

I am a believer in economic cycles, not elected politicians in office. Looking at a certain time period during someones tenure, and making a black and white analysis is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Who ever wins this next election will regret it, they are not going to change the situation we are in today, all they will do is respond to the financial crisis, not prevent it.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16282823 - 05/25/12 12:19 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It's a damn shame that he couldn't have ran for eight more years. It's a damn shame that Al Gore didn't get just a few more votes to sink the deal.



Whatever he may have done right, I think the fact that he was the only president in the 20th century to be impeached made him unelectable even if he had been able to run a third term.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16283547 - 05/25/12 03:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Whatever he may have done right, I think the fact that he was the only president in the 20th century to be impeached made him unelectable even if he had been able to run a third term.




A good majority of the country didn't want him to be impeached in the first place.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16283824 - 05/25/12 04:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
A good majority of the country didn't want him to be impeached in the first place.



Is that what determines a person's culpability?  Majority opinion?  Lets take a vote and determine Zimmerman's fate while we're at it...

The fact is that he was impeached for clearly lying under oath...to Congress...that makes him pretty much unfit to lead a nation wherein he has to work with Congress....


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16284017 - 05/25/12 05:31 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's what Clinton said.




And what do you base that on?

Quote:

qman said:
Having a surplus for a few years during the Clinton Administration had very little to do with Clinton or his polices. Sometimes it's called being in the right place at the right time.


We had a speculative stock market bubble, and technology sector, capital gains were flowing in on speculative gains, it was short lived and crashed shortly after he left, taking credit for this situation is laughable.




This kind of economic prosperity was short-lived due to Bush's economic policies, which completely sucked.

I think you don't realize what kind of economic situation the country was in when he was elected, nor the steps that he took at the beginning of his term to stabilize the economy.
It'd be ignorant to think that the federal administration doesn't set the tone and the framework for the economy, and often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go. The basic picture is that Clinton's handling of the situation sent clear signals to the markets that the federal government was going to become much more financially disciplined at a time when things were pretty sour economically.

I like this quote, from a senior fellow from the Cato Institute:

Quote:


http://meetthefacts.com/tag/omnibus-budget-reconciliation-act-of-1993/
“The economy did do well under Clinton, but that was because of other policies he adopted and in spite of the ’93 tax increase,” Mitchell said, citing lower government spending as a share of gross domestic product, approval of the North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization, welfare reform, farm-subsidy reform. “These are the
policies that boosted the economy. The tax increases in 1993 hurt, but were more than offset by other changes.”




The other important point to take into consideration is that, even if you consider that a major factor in the existence of the surplus, even if you don't want to admit that his policies played a good role in facilitating it's existence, was a speculative stock market bubble and the gains in tax revenue from the high-tech sector, and you consider that these things were short-lived, it's a simple fact that, if his policies continued, the federal government would have been much more capable of responding to the financial crisis and markets would have had much more faith in the stability of the country and it's ability to pay off it's debt.

He advocated to save the surplus for Social Security :shocked:, because he vetoed tax-cut bills that would have given it away :shocked:, and because he was actually interested in paying off the debt. I really like his response to the tax payer's in addressing Republicans who were clamoring to give the surplus back to them because it's their money: It'd be like getting a check for a million dollars in the mail from Publisher's Clearing House and going out and spending all of your money. :smirk:

It's a damn shame that he couldn't have ran for eight more years. It's a damn shame that Al Gore didn't get just a few more votes to sink the deal.




This is what I always thought about Clintons admin. But not being in the know I was never sure.  I guess maybe you've done the homework. Thanks.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284093 - 05/25/12 06:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

All you need to know about the Clinton administration is that it tried for two years to get a socialist health bill and was completely and utterly repudiated in 1994 when the electorate gave control of both the House and the Senate to Republicans for the first time in 42 years.  He was cock blocked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284100 - 05/25/12 06:03 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I doubt that's all I need to know. That's all you need to know.


--------------------
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284111 - 05/25/12 06:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That's all you need to know since you are an opt out.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284133 - 05/25/12 06:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No what fireworks said is all I need to know since I was curious if my impressions were possibly correct. You have not disputed his post on that  so...

Ultimately however it makes no real difference because I'm an opt out not that that makes any real difference either. :satansmoking:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284226 - 05/25/12 06:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I did.  Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284403 - 05/25/12 07:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'd like to hear firework's response to this. He seems to be up on it.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284438 - 05/25/12 07:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Ya know, I gotta say I'm a little surprised.  You're just about my age.  You don't recall Hillarycare or the Contract with America landslide in 1994?  Were you living under a rock?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284495 - 05/25/12 07:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I recall it.  Those were good years and I was younger and busy kicking the gong around, getting laid  and not thinking much about politics.

In fact, I've wasted little time on the subject. I've done very well for myself financially and otherwise no matter who was in power and no matter what they were up to. And no year(s) seemed better or worse than any others.  So... It's really of only entertainment interest to me.  Of all the hours I get to waste in this one life politics barely makes it onto the radar.  I wouldn't even get this much of it if there wasn't this forum here. When nothing is happening in the other forums I pop in so see whos about to burst a blood vessel and poke them with a stick to see if they'll keel over. :laugh:


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284580 - 05/25/12 08:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I recall it.  Those were good years and I was younger and busy kicking the gong around, getting laid  and not thinking much about politics.

In fact, I've wasted little time on the subject. I've done very well for myself financially and otherwise no matter who was in power and no matter what they were up to. And no year(s) seemed better or worse than any others.  So... It's really of only entertainment interest to me.  Of all the hours I get to waste in this one life politics barely makes it onto the radar.  I wouldn't even get this much of it if there wasn't this forum here. When nothing is happening in the other forums I pop in so see whos about to burst a blood vessel and poke them with a stick to see if they'll keel over. :laugh:



:grin:Confession of trolling?  And I just looked at your post stats.  What you say of this forum was true in the past but not anymore.  You used to be a big Philosophy guy with a small Politics footprint but that has changed a lot of late.

Bill Clinton was pretty much a complete cypher as a President (except for the cigar incident).  It was a luxury history afforded him.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284619 - 05/25/12 08:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Sure I troll at times. I think proper trolling is an art form and an educational tool, and good fun.

and like I said, politics is entertainment only, I do well no matter what.  I got skills and luck. :imspecial:


Edited by Icelander (05/25/12 08:35 PM)


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16285391 - 05/25/12 11:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:popcorn:


Be advised, if you're advocating cutting the military or defence budget you're unpatriotic and simply a terrorist. :cheer:


--------------------



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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16286414 - 05/26/12 03:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Is that what determines a person's culpability?  Majority opinion?  Lets take a vote and determine Zimmerman's fate while we're at it...




No, but majority opinion does determine electability, the last time I checked, which I believe was the matter for discussion.

It's also not a matter of culpability, as no one doubts that he was culpable. It's a matter of how to reprimand him for being culpable. Most people then didn't think impeachment was necessary, that he should simply be censured and everyone should move on.

Quote:


The fact is that he was impeached for clearly lying under oath...to Congress...that makes him pretty much unfit to lead a nation wherein he has to work with Congress....




He wasn't impeached for lying under oath to Congress, he was impeached for lying to a grand jury and obstructing justice, none of which had anything to do with Congress and instead with a (pointlessly) ongoing independent (politically motivated and at times even corrupt and illegal) investigation.
Beyond that, it's easy to determine if being impeached makes him "pretty much" unfit due to the need he would have to work with Congress. He was in office for two more years after his impeachment and acquittal. Do you have any evidence at all that all this impacted in the slightest his ability to work with Congress or lead the country (and, to tie it back in with the original point of contention, be reelected?).


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16286462 - 05/26/12 04:02 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'd like to hear firework's response to this. He seems to be up on it.




We actually just went through this a couple of days ago. :tongue2:

Here's the quotes:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
First of all, Congress sets the budget so if anybody deserves credit for eliminating the debt during that latter Clinton years it is Newt Gingrich, not Bill Clinton. 




That's bullshit, Clinton's agenda was passed through initially by a Democratic Congress and maintained pressure on Gingrich and Dole to continue his agenda without major concessions. The Republicans essentially went along with him after trying in vain to resist him; he deserves the credit.




and:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well that is just ignorance of history.  Do you remember Hillarycare?  That was a huge part of his agenda and the voters directly repudiated it in 1994 by handing the reins of Congress over to the Republicans for the first time in decades.




I'm sure it played a role in the results (I was talking about his economic and budget-balancing policies anyway). I'm also sure that the fact that the Republicans played out a national campaign based on a well-threshed out platform (i.e. Contract for America) and the Democrats did not was largely responsible for the results, as was Clinton's admitted failure of message control by the way of Don't Ask Don't Tell, assault weapons, and other social type matters seemingly dominated the beginning of his term (seemingly due to the media coverage and not to the amount of actual time they pursued these things). I understand that the NRA played a pretty decisive role as well...
Back to the original point, Republicans largely conceded to him on his economic and budgetary plans, even though they did initially try to use a government shutdown to get their way (it didn't really work, did it?). I just can't imagine how going along with someone else in the end qualifies as them being responsible for the agenda itself.




He went on to say something about the NRA not being that influential and how the '94 elections spun Clinton around a lot and moved him to the right. To continue on two points, I have no doubt that it bumped him to the right on some issues, but not on matters like the economy or welfare reform, where his stance was already formulated and demonstrated in his work as governor. I think the only thing it bumped him on is the extent of his social assistance plans, and the only real bump that occurred was that he simply rolled out his plans in a much more incremental manner, as is clear by the types of things he worked through Congress with the years to come (even a lot of key components of the health-care law that failed).

And, the greater point, more directly relevant to what we were originally discussing, is his ownership of the budget. Once again, it was a Democratic Congress that passed his initial legislation that adjusted the tax rates, collecting more revenue and in this way contributing to a balanced budget (not to mention giving the markets assurances of financial stability). It was Clinton who vetoed the Republican Congress's multiple attempts to cut taxes. It was Clinton's budget that the Republican Congress always eventually conceded to, not the other way around. It was a Republican Congress and a Republican President that quickly completely destroyed the surplus and any notion of fiscal sanity. :lol:


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16286465 - 05/26/12 04:05 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
you continue to labor under the misapprehension that any defense cuts will result in immediate job losses or long term job losses.



Cuts WILL result in immediate job losses.  No one ever discussed long term job losses; you just keep making shit up in this thread.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16286473 - 05/26/12 04:12 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go.



Very well said. 


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/26/12 05:18 AM)


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16286517 - 05/26/12 04:35 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks,  I appreciate the info.  I found Clinton as a personality vastly superior to the Bushes. But Clinton didn't give tax breaks so I can see why some didn't like him. :lol: I prospered greatly durning his reign and it was an enjoyable time in my life. That's what matters to me.  He should have just said he fucked her. Only  prudes would have held that against him. It wouldn't have mattered to running a country.


--------------------
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With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16286637 - 05/26/12 06:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
But Clinton didn't give tax breaks so I can see why some didn't like him. :lol:




Actually he did sign a compromise bill in '97 that had tax cuts, especially the capital gains cut. It'd be easy to say that this, which was something the Republicans got out of the deal, is responsible for the surplus, due to the increased investment in the economy which generated growth, but a quick look at any chart shows that the deficit was decreasing substantially before then and essentially was no more in '97, with the tax cuts being enacted in the middle of that year. I'm sure the cut impacted economic growth and helped boost tax revenue, but it seems more than clear that the deficit was already set to be completely eliminated before this happened.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: qman]
    #16286654 - 05/26/12 07:18 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I did not dislike Clinton, I am just stating that his polices had nothing to do with a surplus, or the economic propensity that took place during his tenure.




Exactly, and that's what I criticized, not whether or not you like him. :grin:

Quote:


What was so disciplined about a policy that allowed margin debt on the stock exchanges to hit all-time highs and allowed tons of unproductive business to start up and eventually crash to the ground?




I think it's hard to imagine how his policies would be responsible for unproductive businesses to start and crash. You'll have to explain to me how the margin debt on stock exchanges hitting all-time highs relates to his policies because I don't know enough about this to correlate it to his policies.

Quote:


Having a speculative bubble that crashes is highly destructive to the economy.




So explain how his policies were responsible for this bubble.

Quote:


The passing of NAFTA and WTO helped ship millions of high paying manufacturing jobs overseas, and is a major reason why this country is in the shape it is today, while it helped the bottom line of corporate America, it has slaughtered the working class to this day.




I don't buy your conclusion about NAFTA and the WTO being a major reason why the United States is in the "shape" it is today. You mentioned that you are a believer in economic cycles, so why is it hard to imagine that a loss of manufacturing jobs occurred because of the changes that occur by way of economic cycles? Like, for example, a country shifting over time between exporting and importing, producing and consuming, developing vs. developed. The truth is that manufacturing jobs have been declining since the '50's and didn't see any marked increase in decline from the '90's on.
This idea of the working class being slaughtered doesn't convey any real truth, IMO.

Quote:


I am a believer in economic cycles, not elected politicians in office. Looking at a certain time period during someones tenure, and making a black and white analysis is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Who ever wins this next election will regret it, they are not going to change the situation we are in today, all they will do is respond to the financial crisis, not prevent it.




Right. You believe in economic cycles and not elected politicians in office, so you completely ignored all that talk last summer about raising the debt limit and the credit rating downgrade, because none of that matters economically because it's just elected politicians in office.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16287472 - 05/26/12 01:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:

Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.
Quote:

 


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go.



Very well said. 




Obama had a compliant Congress that gave him what he wanted.  Do you really not understand the difference?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16292157 - 05/27/12 02:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:




Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.


 
I can't wait to hear you defend your contradiction.  This should be good.

:popcorn:


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16320194 - 06/02/12 02:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:




Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.


 
I can't wait to hear you defend your contradiction.  This should be good.

:popcorn:



Not going to defend your position?  I would've been surprised if you could.  :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16321558 - 06/02/12 02:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

What are you talking about?  He doesn't set the total budget but he has quite a bit of discretion about how it is spent.  Are you well?


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16324941 - 06/03/12 04:32 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What are you talking about?  He doesn't set the total budget but he has quite a bit of discretion about how it is spent.  Are you well?



He also has quite a bit of influence on setting the total budget.  He deserves credit for the surplus, and he deserves credit for warning the Bush administration about the Obama threat, which wasn't taken seriously according to White House insiders.


--------------------
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16325873 - 06/03/12 12:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What are you talking about?  He doesn't set the total budget but he has quite a bit of discretion about how it is spent.  Are you well?



He also has quite a bit of influence on setting the total budget.  He deserves credit for the surplus,



No, he doesn't in either case.  You continue to ignore that he completely pivoted after the elections of 1994.  He tried to be the big spender for two years but the voters cut his nuts off.  Now Hillary has them in a jar.
Quote:




and he deserves credit for warning the Bush administration about the Obama:rofl2::facepalm: threat, which wasn't taken seriously according to White House insiders.




He had a chance at "Obama" and didn't take it.  Nice job.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16325876 - 06/03/12 12:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You should change your user name to Monica Lewinski


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16334179 - 06/05/12 02:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

there really is a lot of excess in the military.  An interesting study is to look at the strength of the various countries military organization and strength. 

http://www.globalfirepower.com/


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carbonhoots 4,976 38 02/12/04 10:41 PM
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* Leavitt to Lead U.S. HHS, Could Cut Programs
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