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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284111 - 05/25/12 04:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That's all you need to know since you are an opt out.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284133 - 05/25/12 04:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No what fireworks said is all I need to know since I was curious if my impressions were possibly correct. You have not disputed his post on that  so...

Ultimately however it makes no real difference because I'm an opt out not that that makes any real difference either. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284226 - 05/25/12 04:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I did.  Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284403 - 05/25/12 05:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'd like to hear firework's response to this. He seems to be up on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284438 - 05/25/12 05:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Ya know, I gotta say I'm a little surprised.  You're just about my age.  You don't recall Hillarycare or the Contract with America landslide in 1994?  Were you living under a rock?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284495 - 05/25/12 05:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I recall it.  Those were good years and I was younger and busy kicking the gong around, getting laid  and not thinking much about politics.

In fact, I've wasted little time on the subject. I've done very well for myself financially and otherwise no matter who was in power and no matter what they were up to. And no year(s) seemed better or worse than any others.  So... It's really of only entertainment interest to me.  Of all the hours I get to waste in this one life politics barely makes it onto the radar.  I wouldn't even get this much of it if there wasn't this forum here. When nothing is happening in the other forums I pop in so see whos about to burst a blood vessel and poke them with a stick to see if they'll keel over. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16284580 - 05/25/12 06:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I recall it.  Those were good years and I was younger and busy kicking the gong around, getting laid  and not thinking much about politics.

In fact, I've wasted little time on the subject. I've done very well for myself financially and otherwise no matter who was in power and no matter what they were up to. And no year(s) seemed better or worse than any others.  So... It's really of only entertainment interest to me.  Of all the hours I get to waste in this one life politics barely makes it onto the radar.  I wouldn't even get this much of it if there wasn't this forum here. When nothing is happening in the other forums I pop in so see whos about to burst a blood vessel and poke them with a stick to see if they'll keel over. :laugh:



:grin:Confession of trolling?  And I just looked at your post stats.  What you say of this forum was true in the past but not anymore.  You used to be a big Philosophy guy with a small Politics footprint but that has changed a lot of late.

Bill Clinton was pretty much a complete cypher as a President (except for the cigar incident).  It was a luxury history afforded him.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16284619 - 05/25/12 06:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Sure I troll at times. I think proper trolling is an art form and an educational tool, and good fun.

and like I said, politics is entertainment only, I do well no matter what.  I got skills and luck. :imspecial:


Edited by Icelander (05/25/12 06:35 PM)


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Offlinesnoot
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16285391 - 05/25/12 09:21 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:popcorn:


Be advised, if you're advocating cutting the military or defence budget you're unpatriotic and simply a terrorist. :cheer:


--------------------



I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16286414 - 05/26/12 01:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Is that what determines a person's culpability?  Majority opinion?  Lets take a vote and determine Zimmerman's fate while we're at it...




No, but majority opinion does determine electability, the last time I checked, which I believe was the matter for discussion.

It's also not a matter of culpability, as no one doubts that he was culpable. It's a matter of how to reprimand him for being culpable. Most people then didn't think impeachment was necessary, that he should simply be censured and everyone should move on.

Quote:


The fact is that he was impeached for clearly lying under oath...to Congress...that makes him pretty much unfit to lead a nation wherein he has to work with Congress....




He wasn't impeached for lying under oath to Congress, he was impeached for lying to a grand jury and obstructing justice, none of which had anything to do with Congress and instead with a (pointlessly) ongoing independent (politically motivated and at times even corrupt and illegal) investigation.
Beyond that, it's easy to determine if being impeached makes him "pretty much" unfit due to the need he would have to work with Congress. He was in office for two more years after his impeachment and acquittal. Do you have any evidence at all that all this impacted in the slightest his ability to work with Congress or lead the country (and, to tie it back in with the original point of contention, be reelected?).


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If I should die this very moment
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16286462 - 05/26/12 02:02 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'd like to hear firework's response to this. He seems to be up on it.




We actually just went through this a couple of days ago. :tongue2:

Here's the quotes:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
First of all, Congress sets the budget so if anybody deserves credit for eliminating the debt during that latter Clinton years it is Newt Gingrich, not Bill Clinton. 




That's bullshit, Clinton's agenda was passed through initially by a Democratic Congress and maintained pressure on Gingrich and Dole to continue his agenda without major concessions. The Republicans essentially went along with him after trying in vain to resist him; he deserves the credit.




and:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well that is just ignorance of history.  Do you remember Hillarycare?  That was a huge part of his agenda and the voters directly repudiated it in 1994 by handing the reins of Congress over to the Republicans for the first time in decades.




I'm sure it played a role in the results (I was talking about his economic and budget-balancing policies anyway). I'm also sure that the fact that the Republicans played out a national campaign based on a well-threshed out platform (i.e. Contract for America) and the Democrats did not was largely responsible for the results, as was Clinton's admitted failure of message control by the way of Don't Ask Don't Tell, assault weapons, and other social type matters seemingly dominated the beginning of his term (seemingly due to the media coverage and not to the amount of actual time they pursued these things). I understand that the NRA played a pretty decisive role as well...
Back to the original point, Republicans largely conceded to him on his economic and budgetary plans, even though they did initially try to use a government shutdown to get their way (it didn't really work, did it?). I just can't imagine how going along with someone else in the end qualifies as them being responsible for the agenda itself.




He went on to say something about the NRA not being that influential and how the '94 elections spun Clinton around a lot and moved him to the right. To continue on two points, I have no doubt that it bumped him to the right on some issues, but not on matters like the economy or welfare reform, where his stance was already formulated and demonstrated in his work as governor. I think the only thing it bumped him on is the extent of his social assistance plans, and the only real bump that occurred was that he simply rolled out his plans in a much more incremental manner, as is clear by the types of things he worked through Congress with the years to come (even a lot of key components of the health-care law that failed).

And, the greater point, more directly relevant to what we were originally discussing, is his ownership of the budget. Once again, it was a Democratic Congress that passed his initial legislation that adjusted the tax rates, collecting more revenue and in this way contributing to a balanced budget (not to mention giving the markets assurances of financial stability). It was Clinton who vetoed the Republican Congress's multiple attempts to cut taxes. It was Clinton's budget that the Republican Congress always eventually conceded to, not the other way around. It was a Republican Congress and a Republican President that quickly completely destroyed the surplus and any notion of fiscal sanity. :lol:


--------------------
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Like being here
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16286465 - 05/26/12 02:05 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
you continue to labor under the misapprehension that any defense cuts will result in immediate job losses or long term job losses.



Cuts WILL result in immediate job losses.  No one ever discussed long term job losses; you just keep making shit up in this thread.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16286473 - 05/26/12 02:12 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go.



Very well said. 


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/26/12 03:18 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16286517 - 05/26/12 02:35 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks,  I appreciate the info.  I found Clinton as a personality vastly superior to the Bushes. But Clinton didn't give tax breaks so I can see why some didn't like him. :lol: I prospered greatly durning his reign and it was an enjoyable time in my life. That's what matters to me.  He should have just said he fucked her. Only  prudes would have held that against him. It wouldn't have mattered to running a country.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander]
    #16286637 - 05/26/12 04:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
But Clinton didn't give tax breaks so I can see why some didn't like him. :lol:




Actually he did sign a compromise bill in '97 that had tax cuts, especially the capital gains cut. It'd be easy to say that this, which was something the Republicans got out of the deal, is responsible for the surplus, due to the increased investment in the economy which generated growth, but a quick look at any chart shows that the deficit was decreasing substantially before then and essentially was no more in '97, with the tax cuts being enacted in the middle of that year. I'm sure the cut impacted economic growth and helped boost tax revenue, but it seems more than clear that the deficit was already set to be completely eliminated before this happened.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: qman]
    #16286654 - 05/26/12 05:18 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I did not dislike Clinton, I am just stating that his polices had nothing to do with a surplus, or the economic propensity that took place during his tenure.




Exactly, and that's what I criticized, not whether or not you like him. :grin:

Quote:


What was so disciplined about a policy that allowed margin debt on the stock exchanges to hit all-time highs and allowed tons of unproductive business to start up and eventually crash to the ground?




I think it's hard to imagine how his policies would be responsible for unproductive businesses to start and crash. You'll have to explain to me how the margin debt on stock exchanges hitting all-time highs relates to his policies because I don't know enough about this to correlate it to his policies.

Quote:


Having a speculative bubble that crashes is highly destructive to the economy.




So explain how his policies were responsible for this bubble.

Quote:


The passing of NAFTA and WTO helped ship millions of high paying manufacturing jobs overseas, and is a major reason why this country is in the shape it is today, while it helped the bottom line of corporate America, it has slaughtered the working class to this day.




I don't buy your conclusion about NAFTA and the WTO being a major reason why the United States is in the "shape" it is today. You mentioned that you are a believer in economic cycles, so why is it hard to imagine that a loss of manufacturing jobs occurred because of the changes that occur by way of economic cycles? Like, for example, a country shifting over time between exporting and importing, producing and consuming, developing vs. developed. The truth is that manufacturing jobs have been declining since the '50's and didn't see any marked increase in decline from the '90's on.
This idea of the working class being slaughtered doesn't convey any real truth, IMO.

Quote:


I am a believer in economic cycles, not elected politicians in office. Looking at a certain time period during someones tenure, and making a black and white analysis is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Who ever wins this next election will regret it, they are not going to change the situation we are in today, all they will do is respond to the financial crisis, not prevent it.




Right. You believe in economic cycles and not elected politicians in office, so you completely ignored all that talk last summer about raising the debt limit and the credit rating downgrade, because none of that matters economically because it's just elected politicians in office.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16287472 - 05/26/12 11:48 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:

Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.
Quote:

 


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
often the same people who would dismiss Clinton's influence on the economy are quick to suggest that Obama's influence on the economy is exactly why he needs to go.



Very well said. 




Obama had a compliant Congress that gave him what he wanted.  Do you really not understand the difference?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16292157 - 05/27/12 12:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:




Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.


 
I can't wait to hear you defend your contradiction.  This should be good.

:popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16320194 - 06/02/12 12:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Congress makes the budget.  Clinton deserves zero credit for the budget.  In fact, if he had allocated a few million more on fighting terrorism the country would have saved billions, maybe trillions, and that was entirely within his power.



Did you just contradict yourself on who has power over the budget in the very same post? :oogle:




Well no.  You don't seem to understand the difference between the executive and the legislative branches of government.


 
I can't wait to hear you defend your contradiction.  This should be good.

:popcorn:



Not going to defend your position?  I would've been surprised if you could.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16321558 - 06/02/12 12:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

What are you talking about?  He doesn't set the total budget but he has quite a bit of discretion about how it is spent.  Are you well?


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