Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,537
Last seen: 7 days, 21 hours
We really should cut the defense budget
    #16251548 - 05/18/12 07:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's not that I support excess spending in other areas, or that I don't think defense is a priority; but I think our nation's defense is so mismanaged and over-budgeted that it has created a hugely unsustainable culture.

First of all, almost every department that received money from the defense budget, the CIA, the DoD, the NSA, et al., has huge budget surpluses at the end of the year, and this ends up with managers running around telling their analysts to conjure up contracts so that they will receive the same or greater largesse in the next year's budget.  We've spent untold billions on unnecessary contracts.

Second, our military is basically the bail-out plan for our EU allies and, especially, NATO member states.  We spend to an excess while other similarly wealthy nations spend nearly nothing, counting on our allegiance in the event of a military conflict. 

Lastly, there is the inefficiency of the military, the competing bureaucracies of the various agencies, the ineptitude.  Our soldiers have made numerous complaints about the quality of their equipment and their logistical support.  Granted, improvements have been made over the course of our two decade-long conflicts, but there should be more than enough money to make and keep soldiers content in these areas; instead, they often suffer, while billions of dollars are poured into undeserved, no-bid contracts with little or no oversight.  And every agency wants to be the big dog, so there is a lot of duplication of efforts, and overlapping initiatives that could be streamlined to save taxpayers' money.

I haven't yet looked into the details of Obama's plan to cut defense spending.  It will probably be disastrous, like every other economic initiative he has undertaken.  But I agree that defense spending should be cut, or at least the bureaucracies should be streamlined so as to eliminate the massive waste.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Lion]
    #16252458 - 05/18/12 11:49 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's not really what you'd think.


For every 1 department that is scrambling to spend their money every september, there are 3 who had multiple projects that didnt get funded.  Additionally, those 'last minute contracts' still result in tangible deliverables for the government.  Whether it's something simplistic or tangible, it ultimately helps support the overarching mission.

And we spend so little on defense relative to what we spend supporting an unsustainable social services system


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedil
Stranger
Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 5
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: memes]
    #16254705 - 05/19/12 04:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

US wouldn't spend so much if it didn't have to/choose to police the world.  It's a hard pill to swallow, but it isn't practical to hunt down every "evil" leader on earth.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,774
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: dil]
    #16254994 - 05/19/12 06:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.

Again..I'm okay with this, but as long as we judge the effectiveness of an administration on the unemployment rate, it doesn't seem likely.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16255608 - 05/19/12 08:41 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well when the gov't stops spending there will be a downside also.  We have to weigh the cost benefit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleNot Quite Social
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #16255680 - 05/19/12 08:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, I agree with the lawyer (ugh :grin:), the US military is the biggest social welfare program.  It's workfare.


--------------------


The People's History


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257334 - 05/20/12 08:55 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.




Complete bullshit.  Why not put everybody on the government payroll, then?  There is either a bona fide reason to pay someone for a job or there is not.  Keeping them employed simply for the sake of employment is idiotic and destructive.
Quote:



Again..I'm okay with this, but as long as we judge the effectiveness of an administration on the unemployment rate, it doesn't seem likely.




The unemployment rate is as high as it is because businesses are sitting on huge cash positions out of fear of a continuation of this administration, which is the most business unfriendly in the history of the office.  If Obama is re-elected they will continue to sit on it.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,774
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257391 - 05/20/12 09:23 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm all for cutting military budget...but we have to be willing to accept that it will mean higher unemployment.  Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone.




Complete bullshit.



What part of my statement is "bullshit?"  What did I say in that quoted portion that was factually inaccurate?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257397 - 05/20/12 09:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."

No it is one dollar left in the hands of a more efficient manager.  The private market.  Cutting government spending by a dollar does not eliminate a dollar.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,774
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257413 - 05/20/12 09:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If the federal government spends 500 billion less on the military...that is 500 billion that is currently going to people's pay that will no longer be going to people's pay...

Those people will have to be fired...

Eventually, industries can retool for civilian purposes...eventually, jobs will rebound...but how can you possibly claim with a straight face that a cut in the military budget wouldn't have an immediate effect on the unemployment rate?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16257434 - 05/20/12 09:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If the federal government spends 500 billion less on the military...that is 500 billion that is currently going to people's pay that will no longer be going to people's pay...




That will no longer be taken out of the productive market place.  That is where every dollar the government spends comes from.  It was taken from somewhere else.
Quote:



Those people will have to be fired...




Maybe they will find some useful productivity.  Oh well.  Do you know who else doesn't have a job anymore?  Buggy whip makers.  It is called creative destruction and it is the heart of capitalism and the reason for its success.
Quote:



Eventually, industries can retool for civilian purposes...eventually, jobs will rebound...but how can you possibly claim with a straight face that a cut in the military budget wouldn't have an immediate effect on the unemployment rate?




I don't think in terms of minutes.  If there is no prima facie reason other than employment to spend a dollar then that dollar should not be spent.  That is welfare under a different rubric.  The mob likes to do the same things through its union control.  It's called "featherbedding".  You down with that?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,774
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257457 - 05/20/12 09:45 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You're arguing against positions that I never took.

I said it would increase unemployment...That is 100% correct...and any administration that cuts 500 billion from the military will see a spike in unemployment..which will be used against that president in a bid for re-election..

That is the problem with the whole system...no one wants to cut because they are evaluated by unemployment numbers...

As far as your theory that a dollar not spent is a dollar left in the hands of a manager...that's bullshit...Unless/until we cut 1.4 trillion...it is simply a dollar less debt...We could cut a full trillion and still not be able to lower taxes because we're spending more than we take in...AT BEST, it is the interest on that dollar which is saved by the taxpayers.  That is not immediate either...

If the American public would take their collective heads out of the sand and realize that the deficit and debt are big problems...maybe they would get behind cuts and be willing to accept high unemployment during the adjustment period...until that happens, we'll always have politicians who think in 2, 4, and 6 year cycles...always looking toward the next election.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257507 - 05/20/12 10:00 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm with Enill. If Obama cut the military budget by 100 billion dollars and laid off 40,000 soldiers you can damn well bet the headlines will read "Obama destroys 40,000 jobs" rather than "Obama cuts 100 billion in spending." Fact is any spending cuts to the military that affect military jobs will be met with 100% criticism, no matter how essential it is to reduce federal spending. This makes such cuts politically unfeasible.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: Enlil]
    #16257593 - 05/20/12 10:24 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're arguing against positions that I never took.




You went too far, counselor, when you said this, which I was kind enough to highlight for you

"Every dollar that is cut is one less dollar available to pay someone."  The cascade of dollars is much more effective OUTSIDE the government than it is inside it.
Quote:




I said it would increase unemployment...That is 100% correct...and any administration that cuts 500 billion from the military will see a spike in unemployment..which will be used against that president in a bid for re-election..




I wasn't arguing about election effects or the cowardice of politicians.  I was arguing that what you wrote was bullshit.  Which it was.  I agree with you that most politicians are feckless cunts who care only about getting re-elected.  I do NOT agree with you that a dollar not spent by the government is a dollar not spent.  It is a dollar put in the hands of incompetent at best and corrupt at worst morons.  And by morons I mean government bureaucrats even  more than I mean the politicians.
Quote:



That is the problem with the whole system...no one wants to cut because they are evaluated by unemployment numbers...




Or foreclosure numbers
Quote:



As far as your theory that a dollar not spent is a dollar left in the hands of a manager...that's bullshit...Unless/until we cut 1.4 trillion...it is simply a dollar less debt...We could cut a full trillion and still not be able to lower taxes because we're spending more than we take in...AT BEST, it is the interest on that dollar which is saved by the taxpayers.  That is not immediate either...




I was arguing specific to government dollars vs private dollars.  Are you really going to argue that government managers are more efficient than private managers?  Nor was I speaking of immediacy.  In fact, I thnk I made it clear that immediacy was of no concern to me.
Quote:



If the American public would take their collective heads out of the sand and realize that the deficit and debt are big problems...maybe they would get behind cuts and be willing to accept high unemployment during the adjustment period...until that happens, we'll always have politicians who think in 2, 4, and 6 year cycles...always looking toward the next election.




Which has nothing to do with how you and I must think.  I'm all in favor of getting the foreclosure mess out of the way as soon as possible.  The best way to do that is to say FUCK YOU if you can't pay your mortgage.  I don't care to hear your sob story.  Honor your contract or get the fuck out.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemushroom magic
Stranger

Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 29
Last seen: 3 days, 4 hours
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #16257627 - 05/20/12 10:33 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: mushroom magic]
    #16257665 - 05/20/12 10:43 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroom magic said:
People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.



I agree with this.  Now tell the government to leave me the fuck along and stop taking half of what I make.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257688 - 05/20/12 10:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

mushroom magic said:
People should really stop focusing on all the political bullshit and economic turmoil and just suck it up and live their lives. the world would be a much happier place.



I agree with this.  Now tell the government to leave me the fuck along and stop taking half of what I make.




what tax bracket gets taxed 50%?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16257748 - 05/20/12 11:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Let's see, both of us are self employment taxed so that's 15% up to a certain level which is pretty close to what we make but MC goes up now so there you go.  The top tax bracket is now around 35% I live in NY which corns me around 8% plus I pay property tax and sales tax on almost everything I buy, then there are gasoline taxes and phone bill taxes and cable bill taxes and some other taxes I probably don't even know about.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16257774 - 05/20/12 11:11 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Let's see, both of us are self employment taxed so that's 15% up to a certain level which is pretty close to what we make but MC goes up now so there you go.  The top tax bracket is now around 35% I live in NY which corns me around 8% plus I pay property tax and sales tax on almost everything I buy, then there are gasoline taxes and phone bill taxes and cable bill taxes and some other taxes I probably don't even know about.




But you aren't in the top tax bracket, right? Also, sounds like most of your beef is with your local tax structure (cable, phone, gas, property, sales, etc. taxes).


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: We really should cut the defense budget [Re: SlashOZ]
    #16257815 - 05/20/12 11:25 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

We are in the top tax bracket.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Powder   North Spore Cultivation Supplies, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* $2.57 Trillion Budget Ravus 2,705 19 05/02/11 08:33 AM
by Phred
* Your Federal Budget Gijith 820 9 10/26/04 09:15 PM
by silversoul7
* W.House: Tax Cuts to Create 800,000 Jobs
( 1 2 3 all )
Ellis Dee 5,016 40 03/03/02 09:53 PM
by sparafucile
* Bush sneaks through more tax cuts for the rich during war
( 1 2 all )
EchoVortex 4,046 39 03/26/03 09:09 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Lies about sex.... lies about the budget
( 1 2 all )
isis 2,703 23 02/17/02 10:10 PM
by nugsarenice
* Welcome to our new budget resolution PsiloKitten 367 2 04/11/03 11:23 PM
by adrug
* Bush to America..."unemployment will help the economy"
( 1 2 all )
carbonhoots 4,976 38 02/12/04 08:41 PM
by Phred
* Leavitt to Lead U.S. HHS, Could Cut Programs
RandalFlagg
489 2 12/14/04 03:09 PM
by luvdemshrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,831 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.066 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 17 queries.