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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16257179 - 05/20/12 09:41 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
beep beep





Exactly, If you confine your comments thusly I think things will go better for us all. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Epigallo]
    #16262195 - 05/21/12 12:38 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

I'm 99.9% sure that this is just simply not true, and that it wouldn't even be speculated about in a peer reviewed journal.


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Offlinem.y.c.o
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Freedom]
    #16262625 - 05/21/12 02:24 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

that makes PERFECT sense. my grandma was schitzo and when i was 14 i "overdosed" from LSD because it triggered the schizoid-ness and i didn't eat or sleep for 7 days straight, was put in a ward for another 7 days then put on anti psychotics. i've been telling people ever since then that it's as if i'm already slightly tripping all the time, or just easily trigger-able. i'm not schitzo but i suspect my genes have little bits of it, epigenetic sort of thing.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Epigallo]
    #16268392 - 05/22/12 05:18 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, here's the deal with this claim, to the best of my ability:  The straight dope article is false/highly misleading.  The "LSD test" was simply one where the analyte was shown to have similar effects on fish chromatophores as LSD- that's it.  It doesn't mean LSD is in the sample or even that the substance is structurally similar to LSD- to the extent I understand the procedure.

--

The article cited by the Straight Dope guy doesn't actually contain any experimental results, its a review which briefly mentions two papers from which the LSD claim is derived.

The actual claim in the review, below, is that "In one set of studies,Toxoplasma-infected schizophrenics tested positive for D-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) using a fish chromato-
phore bioassay"
.

Now, looking at some other papers, it seems a fish chromatophore bioassay is simply exposing a fish (or maybe just the tissue) to an analyte and seeing if it responds similarly to another substance.  Obviously, the mechanism is likely some type of serotonin receptor or similar mechanism agonized by LSD.  So, the positive result to the LSD test only means the tissue acts similarly to both the sample and LSD.

This does not mean LSD is present, it only means something caused the same response, which could be any serotonin agonist et cet.  I think I'll write the Straight Dope people to tell them to correct their article.


Quote:

The effects of T. gondii on behavior might result from production of com-
pounds that affect neurological function. If so, identification and experimental
manipulation of such compounds in humans might provide tests of the hypoth-
esis  that  T. gondii causes  schizophrenia. Several  lines  of  research  indicate  that
T. gondii produces or stimulates the production of substances that trigger symp-
toms of schizophrenia. In one set of studies,Toxoplasma-infected schizophrenics
tested positive for D-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) using a fish chromato-
phore bioassay (Silverman and Varela 1958;Varela,Vázquez, and Torroella 1956).
After showing that the peritoneal fluid of T. gondii infected mice tested positive,
the researchers found that 44.9 percent of schizophrenics tested positive for both
T. gondii and LSD, whereas none of the non-schizophrenic controls tested posi-
tive for LSD. Positivity for T. gondii antibodies occurred in 63.5 percent of the
schizophrenics but in only 29 percent of the controls.These results support the
hypothesis that T. gondii may cause schizophrenia and may do so by producing
or triggering production of an hallucinogenic chemical. Production of such a
compound may have been favored by natural selection because an infected, hal-
lucinating rodent would be more easily captured by a cat.
Although LSD creates hallucinations that are similar to those seen in schizo-
phrenics (Langs and Barr 1968; Rinkel et al. 1952), the LSD production caused
by T. gondii could only partly explain the hallucinations associated with schizo-
phrenia, because hallucinations due to LSD are predominantly visual whereas the
hallucinations associated with schizophrenia are primarily auditory. Neurological
damage caused by T. gondii infection or other chemicals produced in response to
T. gondii infection may work synergistically with LSD or independently of it to
generate the greater tendencies for auditory hallucinations associated with schiz-
ophrenia. Alternatively, the  chemical  causing  a  positive  response  in  the  chro-
matophore assay may be sufficiently different from LSD to cause different kinds
of hallucinations. Such additional effects of T. gondii must be responsible for the
other  alterations  of  rodent  behavior. If  such  compounds  were  also  active  on human neurons, then a collection of schizophrenia symptoms might result from
a set of chemicals and neurological alterations that together generate the set of
manifestations that defines schizophrenia.




The following section mentions some testing that seems to reinforce my interpretation:

Quote:

Studies  indicate  that  T. gondii excretes  several  different  toxins. Recently, a
toxin involved in T. gondii’s penetration of cells was reported (Hoff et al. 2001).
About a half-century ago, a toxin dubbed “toxotoxin” was also isolated from the
peritoneal fluid of T. gondii-infected mice, and research suggested that this toxin
was perhaps a product of the host in response to the infection, because it did not
seem  to  resemble  toxins  produced  by  other  microorganisms  (Weinman  and
Klatchko 1950). A later report by another group indicated that this toxin was
proteinaceous, most likely of low molecular weight, and firmly attached to glob-
ulin carriers (Woodworth and Weinman 1960).
In 1956, Heath and his colleagues reported a substance dubbed “taraxein,” in
the  sera  of  schizophrenics. When  administered  to  normal  volunteers, taraxein
produced temporary psychotic symptoms similar to those seen in schizophren-
ics (Heath et al. 1957).They noted that the effects of taraxein resembled symp-
toms of schizophrenia more closely than the effects of LSD or mescaline.Tara-
xein was later thought to be a globulin, suggesting that schizophrenia might be
an  immune  disorder  (Heath  and  Krupp  1968). The  researchers  proposed  that
taraxein is a psychosis-inducing IgG fraction that leads to an autoimmune attack
on  certain  areas  of  the  brain—specifically  the  forebrain  and  septal  region—
which  then  results  in  the  manifestation  of  the  symptoms  of  schizophrenia
(Heath, Guschwan, and Coffey 1970; Heath et al. 1967). Such a globulin might
be formed in response to an infection.Whether taraxein and toxotoxin are the
same substance has not, to our knowledge, been evaluated. Although these lines
of inquiry are potentially important to understanding the causes and prevention
of schizophrenia, they have been abandoned, apparently without any evidence
that  warrants  their  rejection. With  modern  techniques, the  existence  of  these
compounds  as  well  as  their  putative  association  with  schizophrenia  could  be
evaluated more easily and with greater precision.




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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: johnm214]
    #16268728 - 05/22/12 06:22 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your research. Even if it isn't LSD, I think it is interesting that there appears to be a specific substance in the brain causing psychotic symptoms. Well it could be more of a cocktail of substances considering the concomitant correlation between bufotenine and schizophrenia.

How did you find those articles?


Edited by Epigallo (05/22/12 06:52 PM)


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Epigallo]
    #16268843 - 05/22/12 06:55 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Epigallo]
    #16268897 - 05/22/12 07:06 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Thanks for your research. Even if it isn't LSD, I think it is interesting that there appears to be a specific substance in the brain causing psychotic symptoms. Well it could be more of a cocktail of substances considering the concomitant correlation between bufotenine and schizophrenia.

How did you find those articles?



wait a minute
the substance may not be causing psychotic symptoms.
the effect of the substance may have a range of physical effects,
and the "psychotic" bouquet my have as much of a causative effect on the concentration of psychotropic compounds (like serotonin) as it could be effected by the increase in local concentration of serotonin like compounds.

i.e.

cause and effect are not established, just a link that could be effective as well as causative.

sorry we are not at all close with this in the context of cause and effect and the context of the term "psychotic".

we could be close if what we are looking for were simplified to what I prefer to call extending resonance, or prolonging the fadeout of signal pulse trains, because that is exactly what happens with extra localized serotonin.

we can shift our interest from classical and inapproriate psychological terms to work with what can be observed in the lab, i.e. re-categorize the effects of longer fadeout by what people report on the various dosage etc.

the term psychotic could probably fall out of use entirely as we get more acclimated to what is actually going on.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16269041 - 05/22/12 07:31 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the term psychotic could probably fall out of use entirely as we get more acclimated to what is actually going on.




:thumbup:


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #16269123 - 05/22/12 07:48 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Well even then - I realize psychosis is a blanket term and not necessarily representative of someone's ability to thrive in whatever their observed state - but I find it somewhat amazing that you can transfer the psychedelic (or psychotic) type quality of mind between people. Although it does kind of make sense. I guess what I did not expect is for the brain to manufacture a drug that increases serotonin instead of it happening more directly...or mysteriously. I'm no neuroscientist though.


If extra serotonin "extends resonance", why do SSRIs tend to dull people rather than bring them to life?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Get Out. Schizophrenics endogenously produce LSD? [Re: Epigallo]
    #16271828 - 05/23/12 08:58 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

While a person is emotional or excited extra Serotonin floods the synapses; then there is depletion and "physical depression" follows.

If this becomes habitual, the chemical pathway gets disrupted, it works best when employed on occasion.  This disruption lowers the middle ground or basal synaptic Serotonin concentration - hence less sympathetic 'excitement' or resonance is possible.

SSRI raises the middle ground or base level by preventing the metabolism that removes accumulated "excess" synaptic Serotonin.

this raises the baseline.

I am not saying it is good or bad, but with cognitive therapy some ssri could serve to help the person relearn ways of being alleviating the bullshit from their personal rollercoaster habit.


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