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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16197419 - 05/07/12 10:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I read the post, don't understand it. Maybe I cannot grasp the concept of free will because I'm too stupid. How can some numbers and theories possibly debunk determinism?

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16197478 - 05/07/12 10:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Biased caused from a chosen and adhered to perspective can present problems, if such things have been pondered and chosen to be absolute in any sense.

:weirdeyes:

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16197499 - 05/07/12 10:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The only arguments left are ad-hoc's if I am not mistaken.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16198030 - 05/08/12 01:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
This data shows that a deterministic universe is not likely:





What data?  I don't see any data in your posts.  Instead you seem to have copy-pasted some stuff that doesn't clearly demonstrate anything relevant to your claim.  Where is the data or argument against a determinist universe?

Quote:

teknix said:

Scientific Method is sort of biased in favor of logic. The quantum world is less logical yet remains observable.





What are you referring to?  What is 'less logical' in the quantum world?  How is the scientific method 'biased in favor of logic' and what is this supposed to mean?

Quote:

teknix said:
Here is an example, predetermination dictates that a maze of dominoes lined up in the proper order will collapse one another in a chain reaction. Quantum Theory shows that they do not collapse in a line as would be dictated by predetermination, but randomly . .






What evidence of this do you have?  What quality is random in this example?  You simply declare that they collapse "randomly" but don' say what is random: the order of dominoe falling, the time each domino falls, the direction each domino falls, et cet.

Much of the remainder of your posts suffer from this same flaw: vague claims with no evidence for any of the possible things you might mean.

This reminds me of your refutation of the big bang/cosmic expansion.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16198154 - 05/08/12 02:18 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I prefer Free Awareness




So random action produces awareness? Or awareness is random? How does randomness translate into freeness/awareness?:confused:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16198190 - 05/08/12 02:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
How can some numbers and theories possibly debunk determinism?




Its the other way around.  We observe the universe exhibiting fundamentally nondeterministic behavior and then make up theories that describe and predict that behavior.

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OfflineGoreTuzk
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: husmmoor] * 2
    #16198348 - 05/08/12 03:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
I think it would be useful to distinguish between determinism or randomness as properties of our theories of the world, as compared to properties of the world itself.




This post touched on the real issue here. You're opposing two things that aren't counterparts.

On the one hand, there is determinism that says that if we had all the variables of existence in our calculator we could predict any given future event, which implies that there can be no free will since the future is already written, as it were, in the fabric of the space-time continuum, and we're just along for the ride through the 4th spatial dimension. On the other hand, there's this scientific concept of randomness that simply means "lack of predictability".

Now, if you acknowledge that, by saying that a given process is random you're just saying you don't have the ability to predict it, and I don't see how that contradicts determinism in any way because you're recognizing it to be a property of your attempts to make models of the world, not of the world itself and its ways. But if you think that reality is random by nature, then I say that deck of cards relies an awful lot on assumptions in order not to crumble. I guess my question is: How can you say that something is truly random? I know it can appear random to talking monkeys, with their particular reality tunnels, but how can you be confident that it's inherent randomness and not just your own (or our own, as a species,) inability to predict? And don't just copy/paste a definition of the measurement problem and think that's an answer.

Edited by GoreTuzk (05/08/12 03:58 AM)

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: johnm214]
    #16198465 - 05/08/12 05:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
This data shows that a deterministic universe is not likely:





What data?  I don't see any data in your posts.  Instead you seem to have copy-pasted some stuff that doesn't clearly demonstrate anything relevant to your claim.  Where is the data or argument against a determinist universe?

Quote:

teknix said:

Scientific Method is sort of biased in favor of logic. The quantum world is less logical yet remains observable.





What are you referring to?  What is 'less logical' in the quantum world?  How is the scientific method 'biased in favor of logic' and what is this supposed to mean?

Quote:

teknix said:
Here is an example, predetermination dictates that a maze of dominoes lined up in the proper order will collapse one another in a chain reaction. Quantum Theory shows that they do not collapse in a line as would be dictated by predetermination, but randomly . .






What evidence of this do you have?  What quality is random in this example?  You simply declare that they collapse "randomly" but don' say what is random: the order of dominoe falling, the time each domino falls, the direction each domino falls, et cet.

Much of the remainder of your posts suffer from this same flaw: vague claims with no evidence for any of the possible things you might mean.

This reminds me of your refutation of the big bang/cosmic expansion.




If you can't see the correlation even after determinism has been defined to include 'Non Random Properties' then it is likely beyond your comprehension level and you should probably refrain from posting in this thread until comprehension is achieved.

"and so that freedom of choice is illusory" infers 'Non Random Properties'.

No I am not a particle physicist, I present the data collected by them and the observations made by them as can be found in the doctorate certifications from the authorities on the matter.

"Fully determined by preceding events and states of affairs" Also does not leave room for randomness that is evident and present, and been determined to be an objective property of Quantum Theory, (microcosm).

"microscopic phenomena are objectively random.[6] "

IE: You have not presented any evidence at all to the contrary, or even attempted to say how determinism and quantum theory can exist in the same universe.


Edited by teknix (05/08/12 05:40 AM)

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16198504 - 05/08/12 05:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Now, if you acknowledge that, by saying that a given process is random you're just saying you don't have the ability to predict it,

It is predicted with uncertainty, not predetermination.

as 1 or 0 is a false dichotomy in the quantum world: see Schrodinger's cat.

If predetermination is considered to be a "universal property" and true then observed macrocosmic properties would be prevalent in the microcosm.
Observed macrocosmic phenomena does not dictate the microcosm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Predetermination is NOT considered to be a "universal property" and true.

Edited by teknix (05/08/12 05:49 AM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix] * 1
    #16198815 - 05/08/12 08:03 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If you can't see the correlation even after determinism has been defined to include 'Non Random Properties' then it is likely beyond your comprehension level and you should probably refrain from posting in this thread until comprehension is achieved.




Your basic problem here is that just because determinism = non random, that doesn't mean free will = random. Not that I agree, but maybe quantum physics truly is random. So what? How does that have anything to do with free will or awareness?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: DieCommie]
    #16199161 - 05/08/12 10:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Either way, what is the useful correlation between randomness and free will? Free will means our decisions are... random?"
Not predetermined. So, not straight causal.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16199584 - 05/08/12 12:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Not random, and not pre-determined, so in what manner is action instigated?

Without a proper explanation, one must defer to mysticism which basically means "I dunno, but I think so anyway".


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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Offline4896744
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: Rahz]
    #16199653 - 05/08/12 12:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Not random, and not pre-determined, so in what manner is action instigated?

Without a proper explanation, one must defer to mysticism which basically means "I dunno, but I think so anyway".




Why do you need to defer to mysticism, and how is it not a proper explanation? It seems much more proper to accurately define what we observe, although it may seem strange to us, as opposed to making shit up because it feels good.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: 4896744]
    #16199779 - 05/08/12 12:55 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It is proper to accurately define what we observe, but that doesn't mean it's understood.

It seems impossible to prove fundamental randomness. In math, the equation is the cause of the answer. There is no math (AFAIK) that could possibly prove fundamental randomness. Fundamental randomness is wholly mystical. It may be that fundamental randomness is a quality of the universe, but in lieu of proof there is only mystical belief.

I don't have a major problem with mysticism, I just don't like to apply it when it's not necessary. Most types of randomness are explainable with the correct information. Why should quantum randomness be any different?

I'm open to an explanation, which I have been asking for (even though an explanation is synonymous with a cause), but it doesn't seem to be in the OP or in the follow up. Therefore if I believe in fundamental randomness, I'm holding a mystic belief.

I think my usage of the word mystic throws people off as it's not the common definition, but I think my definition is the correct one. Mysticism has the same root as mysterious. Fundamental randomness is mysterious. I doubt. Don't you?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: Rahz]
    #16199789 - 05/08/12 12:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It seems impossible to prove fundamental randomness. In math, the equation is the cause of the answer. There is no math (AFAIK) that could possibly prove fundamental randomness.




Sometimes I feel like nobody read my posts...  :frown:


You may choose not believe it, but that is explicitly what the most accurate scientific theory of all time supported by the most accurate observations of all time implies - that randomness is fundamental.

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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: DieCommie]
    #16200023 - 05/08/12 02:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The observations and the math are beyond most people's understanding and articulating either of them to the general public is beyond most mathematician's and physicist's abilities.  The fact that there are some numbers and symbols sandwiched between alien equations and there are experiments that infer all sorts of shit about invisible and barely detectable particles brings out the skeptic in me.  I'm sure if I were trained in their arts, I'd be a believer too.  But I'm not, so I can't help but smell bullshit.  My loss, right?


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: joemolloy]
    #16200068 - 05/08/12 02:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

My loss, right?




Absolutely.  Its one of the greatest and most wondrous philosophical concepts man has ever scratched upon.



edit - Here is a digestible resource about the concepts, if you feel so inclined to learn about what you are rejecting.  :tongue:

http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm

Edited by DieCommie (05/08/12 02:30 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: Rahz]
    #16200088 - 05/08/12 02:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Not random, and not pre-determined, so in what manner is action instigated?"
By the sweet cake of choice :smile: I call it the intent to 'wish' (want to want) :sun:
It seems to be a reflection down from an 'ideal' to the concrete.

In a very complex system, even a minimal change can change the whole system.
Bring quantum randomness into complex systems by that logic, and there you have free will.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #16200167 - 05/08/12 02:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
"Either way, what is the useful correlation between randomness and free will? Free will means our decisions are... random?"
Not predetermined. So, not straight causal.




No it does not mean that it is random, it means that our cognition works on the quantum level in regards to choice. Predetermination works for the macrocosm, our cognition is microcosm.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Determinism Debunked. [Re: teknix]
    #16200183 - 05/08/12 02:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ever had a random thought or made up an unimaginable word?

*random thought*

Conjuring sorcerer conjures gold?

*random word*

mehula abdol mehiosphet

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