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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel]
    #16218990 - 05/12/12 09:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If they cannot do their job vetting loans they buy they shouldn't be in the business of buying loans, should they?




Businesses such as Fannie and Countrywide can do whatever the fuck they want. :shrug:




No, they cannot do whatever the fuck they want and Fannie and Freddie are government agencies.  They have a fiduciary duty to the taxpayer to competently vet the loans they buy. 
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
:facepalm:Addition and subtraction aren't exactly higher math functions and I don't think anybody who can't do those things is going to be in any position to earn enough money to buy a house



The recession proved you WRONG, didn't it?




That the recession was caused by greedy fucks who borrowed money they knew they couldn't repay and government retards enabled them? 
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Of course the start date matters.  It coincided with the increase in government mortgage involvement as a result of Clinton's policies.  By the way, don't think I didn't notice that the graph you cite to support the timing of the bubble is only of new homes.  Think Florida, Las Vegas, Arizona and California.  What of existing homes, which are by far the larger share of the market.  By far.



Fine, here is a all home ownership:



Same story.




From 2005 to 2009 government loans went from around 30% of the market to over 90%.  How did that happen?  They bought up all the paper the private banks wrote, which the banks knew they were going to do.  Do you thikn the private banks would have written all that bad paper if they didn't know theer was a sucker waiting to buy it?  Especially Countrywide

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp120.pdf

Quote:

Close to 90 percent of Countrywide’s loan originations
were bought or guaranteed by some arm of the
federal government.33 Far from being a product
of the free market, Countrywide could
have only existed and prospered in an atmosphere
of government guarantees.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
How can a bank justify giving a loan under CRA rules and denying the same rules to anybody else?



If colleges lower admissions standards for certain minorities, does that mean they lower them for everyone?  No
If banks are forced to give loans under CRA rules are they forced to give them to everyone else?  No




There is no justification for colleges lowering standards either.  I'm still waiting for you make the justification for having different lending rules for some and not others.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Actually the most relevant thing is what they were doing before the bubble



I showed an inverse relationship between housing prices and the number of Government backed mortgages. 




No you didn't. 
Quote:



If you can show a relationship, feel free.



Quote:


Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did not
simply follow the market, but also fueled its
expansion. During the recent housing bubble,
the largest jump in the subprime market
occurred from 2003 to 2004, when the level
of private-label securitizations increased by
over 50 percent, from $522 billion to $806
billion. Behind this explosion was more
than a 100 percent increase in private-label
mortgage-backed security purchases by the
GSEs. Almost 40 percent of these newly
issued private-label subprime securities were
purchased by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac,
making the GSEs the largest single source of
liquidity for this market.


 
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp120.pdf

Read the whole thing.  Theer are charts and graphs galore.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
People who got in earlier and are still in are unaffected.  People who got in late are fucked if they can't pay their agreed upon obligations.  If they hold and wait they will be fine.



Another red herring.  Irrelevant.



Not at all.  The entire point is that the fucking government needs to stop manipulating markets it doesn't understand in some benighted push to social justice, an oxymoron if there ever was one.



Whether or not the Government should be involved in markets has nothing to do with who got in early or late.




That is correct, it has nothing to do with that.  What it has to do with is who made money on the bubble.  It wasn't the banks.
Quote:



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16220677 - 05/12/12 05:12 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you go back through my previous posts, you'll see that my argument was (and still is) that CRA had nothing to do with the crisis.  I agreed with you that banks made so many subprime loans because they were easy to offload.

So please help me understand how CRA, which only contributed to 6% of the subprime market, was to blame.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16220697 - 05/12/12 05:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It set the bar.


--------------------

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16220730 - 05/12/12 05:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If banks are "forced" to make loans to certain people, how does that force them to make similar same loans to anyone else?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16220782 - 05/12/12 05:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If banks are "forced" to make loans to certain people, how does that force them to make similar same loans to anyone else?




Keep moving them goalposts.  Are you ever going to even attempt to make an argument that justifies giving loans to some under different criteria than others? 

No banks were forced.  They were coerced.  Just like nobody is forced to buy health insurance under Obamcare.  You can just pay a penalty.  Do you understand the concept of market forces at all?


--------------------

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16220835 - 05/12/12 05:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Are you ever going to even attempt to make an argument that justifies giving loans to some under different criteria than others?



CRA was passed to reduce discriminatory credit practices against low-income neighborhoods.  That's why.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/12/12 05:47 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16220907 - 05/12/12 06:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Because not giving loans to those who likely will be unable to repay them... is discriminatory?

It was our elected officials buying votes from those low income people that brought about the CRA.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16223659 - 05/13/12 10:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Are you ever going to even attempt to make an argument that justifies giving loans to some under different criteria than others?



CRA was passed to reduce discriminatory credit practices against low-income neighborhoods.  That's why.




Low income neighborhoods should be discriminated against in lending practices.  Because they are, wait for it, low income.  You have to be a blithering idiot to treat all credit risks as the same.


--------------------

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16225841 - 05/13/12 06:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What's a bigger risk?  Lending $100,000 to a low income family, or lending $1,000,000 to a middle income family?  If you exclude the lower class from home loans just because they're lower class, that's discriminatory.  And based on your statement above, you clearly feel that banks shouldn't be lending to low income families.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16226473 - 05/13/12 09:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Are you ever going to even attempt to make an argument that justifies giving loans to some under different criteria than others?



CRA was passed to reduce discriminatory credit practices against low-income neighborhoods.  That's why.




Low income neighborhoods should be discriminated against in lending practices.  Because they are, wait for it, low income.  You have to be a blithering idiot to treat all credit risks as the same.




who has worst credit, a person who had a shit ton of money at one point and owes a lot of money now? Or a person who never made too much money who owes practically no money? I find your republican ramblings a bit much at times. That mentality is what got George Bush catering to the richest 1% of the country. Thanks to him and Clinton, AIG took off like a fire storm, which is for all practical purposes, basically what AIG was, a HUGE fire storm, on the countries credit and finances. Fuck em already this is old news and pretty much garbage, the fact that they are still around and in business in sad and insulting.

I would have hoped they'd be a relic of a thought by now, and the last company we'd be speaking of in the hail storm of debt and money flying around by now. They aren't by far the only burden on this Babylonian country, but since they to me made the gravest mistake and there are dozens of other garbage money sucking institutes in existence to worry about in this fucked up debt deficit horse crap for me to want to remember them, I find it insulting that they still exist, in any way shape or form. I don't suppose now you are going to tell me what a great business they are, providing and giving to money hungry sucking bums, and those bums shouldn't insult AIG and should understand their importance in our society are you?


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel]
    #16226631 - 05/13/12 09:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16227387 - 05/14/12 01:19 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's a bigger risk?  Lending $100,000 to a low income family, or lending $1,000,000 to a middle income family?  If you exclude the lower class from home loans just because they're lower class, that's discriminatory.




No shit its discriminatory, your very question asks for such, and banks are in the very business of discriminating between good and bad risks.  Just how do you propose a bank operate- grant loans to whoever applies?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: johnm214]
    #16227463 - 05/14/12 01:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's a bigger risk?  Lending $100,000 to a low income family, or lending $1,000,000 to a middle income family?  If you exclude the lower class from home loans just because they're lower class, that's discriminatory.




No shit its discriminatory, your very question asks for such, and banks are in the very business of discriminating between good and bad risks.  Just how do you propose a bank operate- grant loans to whoever applies?



No, I don't think banks should just grant loans to whoever applies.

But just because someone is low income doesn't mean they can't repay a loan or that they're a higher risk on a loan that's in line with their income.

Loans should be given based on ones ability to repay it.  CRA mandated that loans under CRA be made consistent with safe and sound operation:

Community Reinvestment Act
Quote:

Sec. 804.

In connection with its examination of a financial institution, the appropriate Federal financial supervisory agency shall—

(1) assess the institution's record of meeting the credit needs of its entire community, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods, consistent with the safe and sound operation of such institution.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16227989 - 05/14/12 07:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

> But just because someone is low income doesn't mean they can't repay a loan or that they're a higher risk on a loan that's in line with their income.


If a person has a good credit rating, and they have the means to repay the loan, then the bank will most likely give them a loan that is in line with their income.  Does this mean that a low income family is going to get a $100,000 loan?  Probably not.  Does this mean that a low income family is going to get a $10,000 loan?  Given that the above assumptions about good credit and ability to repay are true, then yes.  In the same light, if a middle income family with bad credit, that is unable to repay a loan applies for a $100,000 loan, or even a $10,000 loan, then they are probably not going to get it.  Banks don't care about income.  They care about risk.  Unfortunately, the nature of the beast means that most low income families carry a higher risk than people with more wealth.  Most, not all.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Seuss]
    #16228131 - 05/14/12 08:40 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What was the downpayment requirement for CRA loans?

http://www.firsthomeadvisor.com/index.php/first-time-home-buyer-loan-mortgage/cra-home-loans/

Quote:

Benefits of a CRA Home Loan
CRA home loan programs are not the same from one bank to the other and so the benefits of the various programs vary considerably as well.  In general, however, they are usually great home loan options for for first-time homebuyers to be know about and to research when considering their home loan options.

Here are just some of the typical benefits you will find with a CRA home loan:

    Lower down payment requirements
    Lower or no mortgage insurance premiums

    Don't need to be a first-time homebuyer
    No income limits if you buy in a low to moderate income area
    Seller can pay your closing costs
    Lower minimum credit score
    Flexible underwriting
    Compatible with down payment assistance programs
    Compatible with a gift from a family member or friend
    Available in all 50 states





I have bolded what I would consider normal disqualifications for safe and sound lending practices.  If someone is borrowing a million dollars on a 2 million dollar property I have no problem with it.  If somebody with a shit credit score and a 5% down payment made with a gift from a family member or receiving other down payment assistance is applying for a loan I wouldn't lend them a fucking nickel.  Not one nickel.  That is not safe and sound operation.

AIG is now turning a profit and in shape to repay.  Is GM?


--------------------

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Seuss]
    #16228283 - 05/14/12 09:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
If a person has a good credit rating, and they have the means to repay the loan, then the bank will most likely give them a loan that is in line with their income.



But the banks weren't making such loans to people with the means to repay.  That's exactly why CRA was enacted.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16228312 - 05/14/12 09:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
If a person has a good credit rating, and they have the means to repay the loan, then the bank will most likely give them a loan that is in line with their income.



But the banks weren't making such loans to people with the means to repay.  That's exactly why CRA was enacted.



No it wasn't.  It was enacted to get them to lend to people who were more likely not to repay.  See credit score and down payment nonsense.


--------------------

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16228377 - 05/14/12 10:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What was the downpayment requirement for CRA loans?

http://www.firsthomeadvisor.com/index.php/first-time-home-buyer-loan-mortgage/cra-home-loans/

Quote:

Benefits of a CRA Home Loan
CRA home loan programs are not the same from one bank to the other and so the benefits of the various programs vary considerably as well.  In general, however, they are usually great home loan options for for first-time homebuyers to be know about and to research when considering their home loan options.

Here are just some of the typical benefits you will find with a CRA home loan:

    Lower down payment requirements
    Lower or no mortgage insurance premiums

    Don't need to be a first-time homebuyer
    No income limits if you buy in a low to moderate income area
    Seller can pay your closing costs
    Lower minimum credit score
    Flexible underwriting
    Compatible with down payment assistance programs
    Compatible with a gift from a family member or friend
    Available in all 50 states





I have bolded what I would consider normal disqualifications for safe and sound lending practices.  If someone is borrowing a million dollars on a 2 million dollar property I have no problem with it.  If somebody with a shit credit score and a 5% down payment made with a gift from a family member or receiving other down payment assistance is applying for a loan I wouldn't lend them a fucking nickel.  Not one nickel.  That is not safe and sound operation.

It was enacted to get them to lend to people who were more likely not to repay.  See credit score and down payment nonsense.



I'll agree with you that Lower minimum credit score isn't "safe and sound lending practices.  But as the article stated: "CRA home loan programs are not the same from one bank to the other and so the benefits of the various programs vary considerably".  There is no requirement from CRA that banks lend to people more likely not to repay.  Some banks have chosen to accept more risk; it's up to each bank.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
AIG is now turning a profit and in shape to repay.  Is GM?



GM posts record $7.6 billion profit


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16228405 - 05/14/12 10:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The government still owns 500million shares of GM, which it got in exchange for the $49.5billion bailout. Through earlier stock sales and loan repayments, the government recouped about $22.3billion. The remaining shares need to sell for around $53 each for the government to recoup the rest.




It is less than half of that.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/08/aig-pays-more-funds-back-_n_833139.html

Quote:

AIG paid the Treasury $6.6 billion from the proceeds of its sale of shares in insurer MetLife (MET.N), shares it acquired when it sold its international unit Alico to MetLife last year. AIG paid Treasury another $300 million in funds it had retained for expenses related to the Alico deal.

After those payments, the Treasury still holds about $11.3 billion in preferred interests in AIG. It also owns about 92 percent of AIG's common stock.

At Tuesday's closing share price, the sale of that stock would generate a profit for the taxpayer of about $14.22 billion. The Treasury said it expects taxpayers to recover "every dollar" of AIG's bailout, which at one point swelled to $182 billion.





--------------------

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16228522 - 05/14/12 10:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
If a person has a good credit rating, and they have the means to repay the loan, then the bank will most likely give them a loan that is in line with their income.



But the banks weren't making such loans to people with the means to repay.  That's exactly why CRA was enacted.



No it wasn't.  It was enacted to get them to lend to people who were more likely not to repay.  See credit score and down payment nonsense.




I've mostly agreed with wolverine, but in this case I agree with zappa on cra. AIG was originally created for the same purpose, lending companies were too careful who they gave loans too, but on top of it housing prices sky rocketed even when people couldn't afford the upgrades on house prices. But now on the other hand, nobody blamed the housing market, they were happy when companies like AIG came around to help a sub prime market.

Anyway me and everyone else have basically de railed this thread off topic. What current dip shits are the current candidates and what do they plan to change or re enhance all this crap. I always see the wheel turning around and around in the same direction, and whenever someone comes around to try and move it in a different direction they just end up derailing things with corrupt politics and fuck it up even worst. Clinton, GB, Obama, all tried to change these things and just made the current policies more standard and well structured. Like a bear trap, trying to pry one open then it snaps back on your hand your hand AND your foot are trapped.

Who is coming into the field, and what horse shit are they spewing? Anyone think it's ignorant that I've decided not to vote ever again? I don't think so.................


--------------------
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