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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16176594 - 05/03/12 03:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting theory.  Bunk, of course.  I can sell my house easier and faster than I could get out of a lease.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16176610 - 05/03/12 03:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Interesting theory.  Bunk, of course.  I can sell my house easier and faster than I could get out of a lease.




But not with less cost.  When leasing I can move every 6 months or year with little cost above my monthly rent.  Selling a house costs hundreds or thousands of dollars.  Poor people cant do that every couple of years.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: DieCommie]
    #16176621 - 05/03/12 03:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Interesting theory.  Bunk, of course.  I can sell my house easier and faster than I could get out of a lease.




But not with less cost.  When leasing I can move every 6 months or year with little cost above my monthly rent.  Selling a house costs hundreds or thousands of dollars.  Poor people cant do that every couple of years.




If you are itinerant OBVIOUSLY you should not be buying property.  Selling a house also realizes capital gains which more than defray the costs of selling.  Unless you were a fucking idiot.


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16176704 - 05/03/12 03:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I think, economically, Zappa is right.  Houses are easier to get out of than leases.  But I think houses not only are a signal that you have decided to settle down and stick in one spot (also a signal that you've got kids, which creates a ton of same-city inertia), but that they also cause that mentality.  When I have a lease, I'm constantly thinking about what I'll do when it ends, whether I should stay or go, etc.  I imagine if I had a house I would not be thinking about packing up and heading for wherever the economy needs me.

Furthermore, houses require that your income remain relatively steady for a longer period of time, which means you have to pick a decently-paying job and stick with it.  Of course, if your house becomes too expensive you can just sell it and rent somewhere, but I think people have a strong psychological aversion to "trading down" like that - and also sometimes it can take months to sell a house.

On the other hand, if I rent, I can afford to pick a riskier but higher-payoff career trajectory because I know if I fuck up and lose a job or if in my eternal job search I hit a dry spot I won't be up shit creek.  In that case, maybe home-ownership has little to do with causing structural unemployment, but has a ton to do with how damaging a dip in the economy is to people.  Isn't that what basically happened in 2008/09?  People lost their jobs at the same time their mortgages went underwater and upped monthly payments.  If everyone had been renting everyone would have just crapped out on their leases instead and we'd have a nation of people with shitty credit instead of a nation of people with shitty credit and debt.


Edited by sonamdrukpa (05/03/12 03:48 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: sonamdrukpa] * 1
    #16180815 - 05/04/12 10:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Your mortgage debt can be disposed in bankruptcy.  Student loan and tax debt not so much.

I remember an artice in the front page of the NY Times from the beginning of the mortgage crisis.  They were bemoaning the fact that these people who had been living in their house for decades were underwater and couldn't pay the mortgage because they had had financial setbacks.  It wasn't the original mortgage, they had refinanced at a much higher valuation than they originally bought the house for.  They said they didn't know where the cash they got went.  I thought, "fuck these people".  They got greedy.


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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16181005 - 05/04/12 12:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I thought, "fuck these people".  They got greedy.





What's greedy about that?  They got money by selling an interest they owned. 
Quote:


They were bemoaning the fact that these people who had been living in their house for decades were underwater and couldn't pay the mortgage




Yeah, that stuff really puzzles and irritates me.  The people who can't afford a house- fucke em.  Those who can but don't pay or latter cannot afford their loan, somehow they deserve the house?

This is ridiculous- its almost classist: suggesting those who live in homes they own, albeit mortgaged, have some right to be homeowners and not rent or get an apartment.  Meanwhile, the slobs who never got a mortgage and can't afford buy outright are just trash who are owed nothing.  Something's wrong with this picture. 

Moreover, its the people who didn't get a home they can't afford who are being harmed- by stopping foreclosures and rewriting contracts they drive market prices up and decrease availability for those who might like to buy a home.

The suggestion you here often that these people are going to be on the street is similarly bullshit.  None of the proposals, even the most radical, will allow someone without means to stay in their home.  It is only those who can pay a substantial amount, but not fulfill the contract, that are getting the benefit of government force.  These people could just as easily get an apartment or rent a home they could afford.  Once again- the people who don't own get crapped on for the benefit of those who are squatting in homes they can't afford.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #16181126 - 05/04/12 01:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I thought, "fuck these people".  They got greedy.





What's greedy about that?  They got money by selling an interest they owned.




They're greedy because they are whining that they shouldn't have to pay and should get to keep their home
Quote:


Quote:


They were bemoaning the fact that these people who had been living in their house for decades were underwater and couldn't pay the mortgage




Yeah, that stuff really puzzles and irritates me.  The people who can't afford a house- fucke em.  Those who can but don't pay or latter cannot afford their loan, somehow they deserve the house?

This is ridiculous- its almost classist: suggesting those who live in homes they own, albeit mortgaged, have some right to be homeowners and not rent or get an apartment.  Meanwhile, the slobs who never got a mortgage and can't afford buy outright are just trash who are owed nothing.  Something's wrong with this picture.




They don't own the home.  The bank does
Quote:

 

Moreover, its the people who didn't get a home they can't afford who are being harmed- by stopping foreclosures and rewriting contracts they drive market prices up and decrease availability for those who might like to buy a home.




I agree.  Let the foreclosure carousel run full tilt.
Quote:



The suggestion you here often that these people are going to be on the street is similarly bullshit.  None of the proposals, even the most radical, will allow someone without means to stay in their home.  It is only those who can pay a substantial amount, but not fulfill the contract, that are getting the benefit of government force.  These people could just as easily get an apartment or rent a home they could afford.  Once again- the people who don't own get crapped on for the benefit of those who are squatting in homes they can't afford.




Indeed.  Fuck them.  They need to get the fuck out so responsible people can have a chance


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16182183 - 05/04/12 05:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
A democracy is a form of government where everyone in a society gets a say in determining governmental policy.  The US has too many people to be a pure democracy, so we are a democratic republic.  Whether or not a country is a democracy has almost nothing to do with the social or economic policies of that country, nor does it has any necessary connection to any idea of "justice."




well then people can stop arguing that this country has fucking "justice." People stop arguing that, and I'll stop complaining that it isn't democratic. And by the way, since you reply to Zappa, make him cross reference his fucking graphs. Coming up with one graph for his sig and calling it fucking reality showing that Bush had a rising economy and it CRASHED when Obama came in is horse shit, I found a few good graphs online that show the true curb of the housing market in 2008 and 2009, 2009 WASN'T MUCH WORST


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16182197 - 05/04/12 05:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
I think, economically, Zappa is right.  Houses are easier to get out of than leases.  But I think houses not only are a signal that you have decided to settle down and stick in one spot (also a signal that you've got kids, which creates a ton of same-city inertia), but that they also cause that mentality.  When I have a lease, I'm constantly thinking about what I'll do when it ends, whether I should stay or go, etc.  I imagine if I had a house I would not be thinking about packing up and heading for wherever the economy needs me.

Furthermore, houses require that your income remain relatively steady for a longer period of time, which means you have to pick a decently-paying job and stick with it.  Of course, if your house becomes too expensive you can just sell it and rent somewhere, but I think people have a strong psychological aversion to "trading down" like that - and also sometimes it can take months to sell a house.

On the other hand, if I rent, I can afford to pick a riskier but higher-payoff career trajectory because I know if I fuck up and lose a job or if in my eternal job search I hit a dry spot I won't be up shit creek.  In that case, maybe home-ownership has little to do with causing structural unemployment, but has a ton to do with how damaging a dip in the economy is to people.  Isn't that what basically happened in 2008/09?  People lost their jobs at the same time their mortgages went underwater and upped monthly payments.  If everyone had been renting everyone would have just crapped out on their leases instead and we'd have a nation of people with shitty credit instead of a nation of people with shitty credit and debt.




of course rent is less risky. If lenders were so damn honest, we wouldn't be in the mess. Too bad AIG doesn't agree. I mean it'd be the same risk as house mortgages maybe in 1985 :rolleyes:


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: johnm214]
    #16182206 - 05/04/12 05:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I thought, "fuck these people".  They got greedy.





What's greedy about that?  They got money by selling an interest they owned. 





hard to argue with


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel]
    #16182245 - 05/04/12 05:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

As I said in my response, it is that they were whining that they shouldn't lose their house.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #16182254 - 05/04/12 05:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
A democracy is a form of government where everyone in a society gets a say in determining governmental policy.  The US has too many people to be a pure democracy, so we are a democratic republic.  Whether or not a country is a democracy has almost nothing to do with the social or economic policies of that country, nor does it has any necessary connection to any idea of "justice."




well then people can stop arguing that this country has fucking "justice." People stop arguing that, and I'll stop complaining that it isn't democratic. And by the way, since you reply to Zappa, make him cross reference his fucking graphs. Coming up with one graph for his sig and calling it fucking reality showing that Bush had a rising economy and it CRASHED when Obama came in is horse shit, I found a few good graphs online that show the true curb of the housing market in 2008 and 2009, 2009 WASN'T MUCH WORST




That isn't what the graph shows.  It shows a huge increase in deficit spending.  Do you ever know what you're talking about?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel]
    #16182281 - 05/04/12 05:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:


of course rent is less risky. If lenders were so damn honest, we wouldn't be in the mess. Too bad AIG doesn't agree. I mean it'd be the same risk as house mortgages maybe in 1985 :rolleyes:




The lenders didn't do anything dishonest.  The terms of the loans are spelled out in the contract.  There is no such thing as predatory lending.  You can't make people take out loans (unless you're the government running huge fucking deficits to fund toxic waste site production).


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Offline4896744
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16182380 - 05/04/12 06:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

imachavel said:


of course rent is less risky. If lenders were so damn honest, we wouldn't be in the mess. Too bad AIG doesn't agree. I mean it'd be the same risk as house mortgages maybe in 1985 :rolleyes:




The lenders didn't do anything dishonest.  The terms of the loans are spelled out in the contract.  There is no such thing as predatory lending.  You can't make people take out loans (unless you're the government running huge fucking deficits to fund toxic waste site production).




Humans are driven by emotion and constantly seek to hoard more resources for themselves. I think the people who are smart enough to be in charge of the loaning policies would have some idea that many of the people they were lending to were short-sighted greedy retards.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: 4896744]
    #16182388 - 05/04/12 06:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

imachavel said:


of course rent is less risky. If lenders were so damn honest, we wouldn't be in the mess. Too bad AIG doesn't agree. I mean it'd be the same risk as house mortgages maybe in 1985 :rolleyes:




The lenders didn't do anything dishonest.  The terms of the loans are spelled out in the contract.  There is no such thing as predatory lending.  You can't make people take out loans (unless you're the government running huge fucking deficits to fund toxic waste site production).




Humans are driven by emotion and constantly seek to hoard more resources for themselves. I think the people who are smart enough to be in charge of the loaning policies would have some idea that many of the people they were lending to were short-sighted greedy retards.



So what?  Fuck em.  Take the house and let somebody else buy it at a bargain.


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Offline4896744
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16182396 - 05/04/12 06:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

imachavel said:


of course rent is less risky. If lenders were so damn honest, we wouldn't be in the mess. Too bad AIG doesn't agree. I mean it'd be the same risk as house mortgages maybe in 1985 :rolleyes:




The lenders didn't do anything dishonest.  The terms of the loans are spelled out in the contract.  There is no such thing as predatory lending.  You can't make people take out loans (unless you're the government running huge fucking deficits to fund toxic waste site production).




Humans are driven by emotion and constantly seek to hoard more resources for themselves. I think the people who are smart enough to be in charge of the loaning policies would have some idea that many of the people they were lending to were short-sighted greedy retards.



So what?  Fuck em.  Take the house and let somebody else buy it at a bargain.




But didn't the fact that so many people took out loans that they couldn't pay contribute to the housing market crash, which then made it impossible for the banks to make back their money?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: 4896744]
    #16182402 - 05/04/12 06:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:


But didn't the fact that so many people took out loans that they couldn't pay contribute to the housing market crash, which then made it impossible for the banks to make back their money?


  Contribute?  It caused it.  Fuck them they should have nothing left.  Nothing.


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: imachavel]
    #16182406 - 05/04/12 06:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Who in the world is arguing that the US has "fucking justice"?

You can keep arguing that the U.S. isn't democratic.  That won't change the fact that it is.


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Offline4896744
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16182412 - 05/04/12 06:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:


But didn't the fact that so many people took out loans that they couldn't pay contribute to the housing market crash, which then made it impossible for the banks to make back their money?


  Contribute?  It caused it.  Fuck them they should have nothing left.  Nothing.




I don't see the point in getting pissed off at them. They are just a bunch of scared animals trying to make themselves feel better. It seems to me like the only way to fix it is not lend to them in the first place.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: US presidential election 2012: will you vote? [Re: 4896744]
    #16182462 - 05/04/12 06:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

iThink said:


But didn't the fact that so many people took out loans that they couldn't pay contribute to the housing market crash, which then made it impossible for the banks to make back their money?


  Contribute?  It caused it.  Fuck them they should have nothing left.  Nothing.




I don't see the point in getting pissed off at them.




I do.  Deadbeats are scum
Quote:

They are just a bunch of scared animals trying to make themselves feel better.



Bullshit.  They are fully aware humans.
Quote:



It seems to me like the only way to fix it is not lend to them in the first place.



Yes.  Be sure to tell your Congressman to stop telling banks who they should lend money to (CRA) and allowing them to get off the hook by buying the bad paper (Fannie and Freddie).  Government meddling did this.


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