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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: husmmoor]
    #16151590 - 04/28/12 02:55 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Humans are animals or did you sleep through biology?:lol:

It's not a matter of who is "cool" but one of suffering and where does most of it come from.  Lets differentiate between suffering and pain here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16151596 - 04/28/12 02:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The title is misleading in that doing this won't end suffering on earth, but rather will decrease the potential for suffering in the future.  To accomplish the former I recommend every human being commit suicide.  :smile2:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: deCypher]
    #16151624 - 04/28/12 03:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes you are correct but due to the power of death anxiety I ruled that one out.  The best we could possibly  do is stop the buck here but even that is over the top.

Actually my ideas are all impractical except on an individual basis.  We all would love to see our personal idea of a good world but I realize that mine will never see the light of day at least in my lifetime and likely never if history gives clues. But I put it out there as a protest vote.  Like voting for a write in candidate that could never win it still is a valid vote for the one who wants to lay claim to his own ideas of what is good or healthy and give the finger to the universe at large.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16151654 - 04/28/12 03:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

To end suffering, one must eat Hotpockets. There is a flavor for everyone, and will fill you with joy.


Not reproducing would increase suffering for a lot of women, who have the natural urge to have a child. :shrug:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: The Influence]
    #16151676 - 04/28/12 03:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

But only until they died out due to lack of births which of course is the point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16151677 - 04/28/12 03:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans are animals or did you sleep through biology?:lol:

It's not a matter of who is "cool" but one of suffering and where does most of it come from.  Lets differentiate between suffering and pain here.



Well it's good you're having a laugh, since you obviously need some of them with your view on human existence and suffering. :cookiemonster:, but you already cleared up any confusion I could possibly have had about animals and humans in the thread I refered to before, in which you said that rather than being a human you would have preferred to be among other animals, an otter. :smile:

The reason I summed up your words as "Humans suck, animals are cool" is that I completely fail to see any reasoning for your point of view.. and lacking that, it's just your subjective opinion, no better or worse than any other.

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16151687 - 04/28/12 03:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
But only until they died out due to lack of births which of course is the point.



I see, so what your saying is human suffering will end when we all cease to exist? I thought that was pretty well known?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: husmmoor]
    #16151747 - 04/28/12 03:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Humans are animals or did you sleep through biology?:lol:

It's not a matter of who is "cool" but one of suffering and where does most of it come from.  Lets differentiate between suffering and pain here.



Well it's good you're having a laugh, since you obviously need some of them with your view on human existence and suffering. :cookiemonster:, but you already cleared up any confusion I could possibly have had about animals and humans in the thread I refered to before, in which you said that rather than being a human you would have preferred to be among other animals, an otter. :smile:

The reason I summed up your words as "Humans suck, animals are cool" is that I completely fail to see any reasoning for your point of view.. and lacking that, it's just your subjective opinion, no better or worse than any other.




You bet it's good to laugh and if I don't need them I sure do enjoy them.  If you fail to see any reasoning for my pov then you don't want to.  It's certainly self evident to me although by necessity in the realm of opinion.  Human emotional suffering due to our advanced neo cortex is pretty evident.  Other animals don't go through that at least to the degree being mostly instinctual. So suffering as opposed to pain seems to me mostly in the realm of the human animal. So, to end that suffering a lack of humans to suffer would be a self evident solution imo.  As I said if you don't see that you don't want to. Which is to be expected by someone who's enjoying their life for whatever reason at the moment and most likely is anticipating procreating.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16151944 - 04/28/12 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:You bet it's good to laugh and if I don't need them I sure do enjoy them.  If you fail to see any reasoning for my pov then you don't want to.  It's certainly self evident to me although by necessity in the realm of opinion.  Human emotional suffering due to our advanced neo cortex is pretty evident.  Other animals don't go through that at least to the degree being mostly instinctual. So suffering as opposed to pain seems to me mostly in the realm of the human animal. So, to end that suffering a lack of humans to suffer would be a self evident solution imo.  As I said if you don't see that you don't want to. Which is to be expected by someone who's enjoying their life for whatever reason at the moment and most likely is anticipating procreating.




Ah so I just have to wait for the "moment of realization" to come at a time of great suffering. Only then does the evidence become clear? :smile: It's self-evident that if we poll people about whether they think there's little or much suffering, then depressed or otherwise suffering people will probably tend to agree to more suffering and vice versa. That's no proof anyone is right or wrong, it's just a sign that the answers reflect subjective opinions based on personal circumstances.

I'm not going to comment on the "human animal"-"other animal" theory. It's great to know that you value the existence of other species, but you don't really prove anything about "suffering" in humans by comparing it to something else, which, according to your definition isn't capable of "suffering".

You take the human capacity for emotion and thought as evidence that humans are suffering, when actually that capacity is for all imaginable human states of mind, only some of which could reasonably classify as "suffering".

I guess what got me to reply to this thread in the first place is your assumption that people are too ignorant to "realize" that they're suffering. It's some vantage point you have, to be able to see right through the minds of everyone, and measure lives by some unknown objective standard of suffering. :smile:

Though I don't agree with your analysis, I do think your belief has some degree of coolness, for being so radically off the mainstream, and ultra anti-humanist. Did you see Twelve Monkeys?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: husmmoor]
    #16151986 - 04/28/12 04:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Actually I didn't mean to imply that no one knows they are suffering. That wouldn't  make any sense now would it?  What I meant was that few know how suffering comes into being and what could really be done to end it if that is what they want. And many here do say that is what they want.  Of course they would hardly be willing to give up their personal desires for that reality from my experience. Many anyway.  I'm just pointing out that there really is a way to end human suffering once and for all if one is truly willing.  When I  die my family line ends. No more suffering in my family and I did it.  Pretty fucking cool if you ask me. :haha:

And yes 12 Monkeys is one of my all time favorites.  I like those kind of crazy shit movies.  Did you see Melancholia?:feelsweirdman:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16152140 - 04/28/12 05:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Actually I didn't mean to imply that no one knows they are suffering. That wouldn't  make any sense now would it?



No I don't think it would make sense, but it's common for Buddhists for instance, to assert that existence is essentially suffering but people just don't get it. (And by implication people should enlist for re-education to be able to see the truth as the Buddha saw it.)

Quote:

Icelander said:What I meant was that few know how suffering comes into being and what could really be done to end it if that is what they want.



Personally I see a future of all sorts of chemical/electronic substance/components interfacing with the human brain. It may be naive but I think human suffering and pleasure might be going to a whole new level in the coming centuries, and I find that very exciting. I don't think mental/emotional suffering will be history, but I think it will be more interesting and so will pleasure and enjoyment. But that's another discussion.

Quote:

Icelander said:And yes 12 Monkeys is one of my all time favorites.  I like those kind of crazy shit movies.  Did you see Melancholia?:feelsweirdman:



I didn't see Melancholia but I definitely want to. I usually either hate or love Von Trier's movies, so I'm excited what this one will be like. I didn't really like Antichrist, not that it's a bad movie, it's interesting but it hardly lived up to my expectations.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: husmmoor]
    #16152208 - 04/28/12 05:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I mean I know I'm suffering and my friends know it.

What do you care what happens in the coming centuries or are you expecting to be one of the chosen few with enough cash to be given immortality?

I predict from your posts here you'll hate the movie.  PM me and let me know if I was right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16152238 - 04/28/12 05:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I found Melancholia to be profoundly uplifting, actually. It presents an alternative to non-procreation: the magic cave.

In the face of a self-destructing world, perhaps even the shoddiest of illusions is sufficient to keep on. The magic cave may be a "distraction" from the "truth," but that implies a fixed state of the truth of suffering, when the reality is that powerful enough magic caves when properly constructed and shared can create preferable truths that enliven and hearten and inspirit and even maybe justify procreation.

Just help the kids with the cave, and make sure you encourage painting on the walls.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16152256 - 04/28/12 05:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I was speaking about the future of the human race, not my future. I thought that was what the subject was about: human suffering, not just personal issues.

And what I meant was not about possible immortality, just about enhancing states of mind chemically and electronically.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: zannennagara]
    #16152390 - 04/28/12 06:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
I found Melancholia to be profoundly uplifting, actually. It presents an alternative to non-procreation: the magic cave.

In the face of a self-destructing world, perhaps even the shoddiest of illusions is sufficient to keep on. The magic cave may be a "distraction" from the "truth," but that implies a fixed state of the truth of suffering, when the reality is that powerful enough magic caves when properly constructed and shared can create preferable truths that enliven and hearten and inspirit and even maybe justify procreation.

Just help the kids with the cave, and make sure you encourage painting on the walls.





I don't get that at all. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: husmmoor]
    #16152400 - 04/28/12 06:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
I was speaking about the future of the human race, not my future. I thought that was what the subject was about: human suffering, not just personal issues.

And what I meant was not about possible immortality, just about enhancing states of mind chemically and electronically.





It's all personal imo. Especially suffering.

I think it's far from certain we will be able to make happy people.  In the mean time you can take action now to end suffering in humanity.  If you really care that is. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16152416 - 04/28/12 06:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

by ending the ignorance

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: psisha]
    #16152445 - 04/28/12 06:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:
Good that the non-ignorant people are still allowed to live and procreate...
:kimjong:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: psisha]
    #16152527 - 04/28/12 06:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psisha said:
by ending the ignorance





And how do you do that?:haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: How to end suffering on earth 101 [Re: Icelander]
    #16152575 - 04/28/12 07:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Somewhat of a spoiler for the movie below, maybe. Some plot details, and it could be too much analysis if you'd rather go in cold.

The bride (Kirsten Dunst) is the one character who really seems keyed in to what's going on. While everyone else is completely losing it (like her sister) or acting rational but ultimately committing suicide (her brother-in-law, Kiefer Sutherland), she keeps her cool and maintains a good attitude; she seems to present the sane approach to life.

As the world approaches its end (as it always does) she is the only one who knows how to allay the fears and suffering of the survivors, a group that includes the young boy. To me, he appears to represent the procreated offspring you're talking about.

The magic cave seemed like a clear metaphor for going to the movies - which you can extend to Plato, of course - which is what the director, Lars Von Trier, has constructed for us to protect us as the apocalypse comes, whenever it does. So by making movies, or entertaining each other, or carving out whatever enclaves we can (hiking with dogs, shopping at the co-op, whatever you please), we can avoid the suffering that is inevitable in the form of the sun consuming itself or the asteroids/planets approaching us.

I guess I feel as though creating and fostering children is compatible with this "technique," in the sense that allowing them to flourish in the safe/healthful space you've discovered will help their growth in a way they could never expect if they were to be raised unsheltered from the giant suffering to which most of us are subject. Raising dogs seems just as noble to me as creating more children, but the thing about children is that their presence - in that, like corrupted rulers and fools, they are human - may expand that magic cave both for you and them but also into the greater world.

Honestly, I'm not reconciled to having children myself either. However, I'm not sure it's as impossible as you suggest.


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