Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Amazon pH Test Strips

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape
    #16126144 - 04/22/12 10:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/22/justice/miltary-academy-lawsuit/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

read it. Here is what confuses me, the article clearly states that all these women who were raped were afraid to come forward with the fact they were raped. Because higher officers raped them. What confuses me:

"I think that's part of the syndrome that we're dealing with, which is that once a decision is made that somehow this prosecution is not going to move forward then you basically turn on the victim who brought that complaint," Panetta said. "That syndrome is what we have to break out of."


it's like that movie: A Few Good Men. Now is this really all true? Like in that movie, they try and sue the higher ranking officer, and it's said that if the charges aren't found against the higher ranking officer to be true, that they are court martial, and you are allowed to punish someone in such a way by shooting them up against a wall if it's approved.

Is this article messed up in a way that a woman who charges a higher officer with rape is going to not be noticed? Or is there something wrong with the idea of a woman who honestly thinks her drinking to the point she can't move with an officer telling her he has 'girl problems' and her going to his place is going to be in 'good honest terms'? Him raping her isn't cool. But really, at a normal college that would sound a bit odd, and flirty. Now at a strict military regiment did she think they were going to 'talk' if they were both heavily drinking?

If she was seriously honestly violated I feel very very bad for her. But them holding it a secret is very strange and militaristic as though something was wrong with them? If you were raped in the military would you even still want to be in the military? I find the story hard to believe in some sense. I'm wondering everyone else's perspective on that


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16126150 - 04/22/12 10:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit! Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 11 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16127001 - 04/23/12 03:08 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you see American service personnel as basically animals, then.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16128107 - 04/23/12 01:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

duh,  and hey, guess what? So are the rest of us. But the alphas will be drawn to the military and a reason why some women are drawn there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 33,651
Last seen: 6 hours, 31 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16128169 - 04/23/12 01:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So these girls get drunk with men, wake up the next day with regrets, and then call it rape, what a joke. Time for these women to take personnel responsibility to their behavior, and stop blaming others.

If these cases were ever reported, the men would not even be charged, getting drunk and havin sex is not rape, time for these girls to grow up.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit! Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 11 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16128539 - 04/23/12 03:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16128774 - 04/23/12 04:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16129291 - 04/23/12 06:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 33,651
Last seen: 6 hours, 31 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16129381 - 04/23/12 06:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.






"What proof does she have except her word?"  Give me a break, if the women was physically struggling against her rapist, she will have all the evidence that is needed. The bruises,scraps, and rape kit should provide the physical evidence.

What about all the loud screams a women could do if she is attacked and raped?  People can hear this, even from a large distance.

The women in the case the OP showed that they admitted to getting extremely intoxicated, and then claiming to be raped. This is nothing more than a claim, no criminal report has been made to support it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16130628 - 04/23/12 11:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.




so then you disappear from the military and never come back if they don't believe you. You can leave whenever you want. They go to some guys place, after he is talking about his ex girl being a bitch, then drink all night, then are apparently 'raped', then don't report, AND stay in the army.

Seems if you get raped and stay in the army, you complain quite a lot about it, but have more issues then you think if you decide to just stay there. I don't know maybe for a few days, but how long did it take these women? Now if it's true it's horrible, but why hold out for such a long time? Were other threats made after wards like "if you tell anyone I'll fucking kill you, and also no one will believe you anyway"? Seems fishy. If it's true and I'm wrong and it happened and I'm a horrible person for saying this, sorry


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: qman] * 1
    #16131553 - 04/24/12 02:58 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.




"What proof does she have except her word?"  Give me a break, if the women was physically struggling against her rapist, she will have all the evidence that is needed. The bruises,scraps, and rape kit should provide the physical evidence.




Dude. Just stop. You don't know the first thing about rape and clearly have expectations about rape from watching too many movies.

Rape in the military is actually very common, a lot more common than in civilian life.

You know the REASON women don't serve in the front lines? It's because they have stand a very good chance of getting RAPED by a fellow platoon service-member.

It's not just women that are sexually assaulted too. Men are in the military as well. According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, 50,000 fucking male veterans screened positive for sexual trauma in the last year.

But it's the women who must be lying about it, huh? Yea, that's right. Male on female rape NEVER happens. :rolleyes:

Quote:

qman said:
So these girls get drunk with men, wake up the next day with regrets, and then call it rape, what a joke. Time for these women to take personnel responsibility to their behavior, and stop blaming others.




Yes. And this stupid attitude is exactly why women are afraid to come forward about rape.

Quote:

imachavel said:
so then you disappear from the military and never come back if they don't believe you. You can leave whenever you want.




No. You can't. That's considered going AWOL and you lose all your military benefits and can't ever put it on your resume because you got a dishonorable discharge. So you essentially lose all those years of service you put your life into.


Edited by Crystal G (04/24/12 03:10 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit! Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 11 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16131756 - 04/24/12 04:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16131842 - 04/24/12 04:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.




Thank god somebody else called him out on his bullshit. And yes you are exactly right, the military is all about discipline. And considering they are representing the US government, when they are wearing the uniform, they better be expected to adhere to a certain standard of conduct. Just because you are expected to do certain deeds in a time of war doesn't mean you can go around shooting and raping whoever the fuck you want any time you want.

Seriously Icelander, a lot of cops are alphas too. You honestly believe cops should be able to just beat the fuck out of anybody they want and get away with it? That they can just rape whoever the fuck they want and get away with it, simply because they're "Alphas?" You really actually believe that shit?

And not everybody in the military is a fucking Alpha, either. At least 20% of my friends and boyfriends have been military, I've pretty much met all their friends and roommates at the barracks, and there are just as many betas in the military as there are in regular society.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16132114 - 04/24/12 08:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.





:lol:You live is the same world I do sunshine and benefit from  violent nature of the military.

I have lots of discipline and why I don't belong in the military ever.  Not the military where you don't question orders but follow them only.  You live in a world of self induced illusion dude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16132121 - 04/24/12 08:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Seriously Icelander, a lot of cops are alphas too. You honestly believe cops should be able to just beat the fuck out of anybody they want and get away with it? That they can just rape whoever the fuck they want and get away with it, simply because they're "Alphas?" You really actually believe that shit?


duh.  I never said anything about what they should do. I'm speaking of what they do in reality. And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers. These guys are trained to be violent sunshine.  I don't trust military people or cops overall.  But I do know why they do what they do and that they will do it (not all of course) given the opportunity. So if you don't want some of that action they it's your responsibility to keep your distance.

And not everybody in the military is a fucking Alpha, either.

so?  That doesn't mean they're incapable when the group dynamic takes over.


Edited by Icelander (04/24/12 08:41 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,580
Loc: To the limit! Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 11 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16133341 - 04/24/12 03:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.





:lol:You live is the same world I do sunshine and benefit from  violent nature of the military.

I have lots of discipline and why I don't belong in the military ever.  Not the military where you don't question orders but follow them only.  You live in a world of self induced illusion dude.




Nobody benefits from an undisciplined military. You seem to think that for some reason, rapists should be immune from the law just because they are in the military, why is that exactly?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16133589 - 04/24/12 04:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

When did I say that?  Show me.  You could use some discipline in your thinking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16133813 - 04/24/12 05:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
duh.  I never said anything about what they should do. I'm speaking of what they do in reality. And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers. These guys are trained to be violent sunshine.  I don't trust military people or cops overall.  But I do know why they do what they do and that they will do it (not all of course) given the opportunity. So if you don't want some of that action they it's your responsibility to keep your distance.




And why are you blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators who deserve the blame?

It's exactly these very same types of attitudes that makes people afraid to come forward about being a rape victim.

Quote:

And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers.




So then, the US court martials who convict soldiers of committing violent crimes are just dreaming, right? Because that's exactly how the military handles crimes perpetrated by soldiers.

Sorry, but your attitude is bull. I've met plenty of guys who went to war in the front-lines, dated a few as well, and they never freaked out or had any violent or explosive tendencies. If you're going to forgive or excuse somebody for killing or raping simply because they went to war, then why don't we also forgive child molesters simply because they were molested at a young age, or forgive abusers simply because they were abused at a young age, etc. etc.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16134064 - 04/24/12 06:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not blaming the victims, where did I say that?  :tongue:
You and baby hitler seem to have the same comprehension problems.

I said "what do they expect"

The military tends to deal with it's problems only when they come under public scrutiny.  So yeah, you're dreaming if you think the military is under control in these areas.  In warfare rape of women is common among other atrocities.  Most are never ever dealt with.

And again I never said I forgive anyone. There's that comprehension problem again.

Lets me state it once more in the  vain hope that it will be understood.  The military is  a place of war.  Warriors tend to be violent and aggressive  due to inclination and training. While there are some decent people there many are not even near that.  To associate in that company has inherent  dangers. Go there at your own risk and with your eyes open.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16136074 - 04/25/12 01:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm not blaming the victims, where did I say that?  :tongue:




:laugh: I don't think you were intending to blame the victim, but when you say things like "They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting," or "Don't go if you don't want to play rough," you're basically putting it on the responsibility of the woman to not get herself raped. So instead of putting the blame on the rapist, you are putting blame on the victim.

Sadly, this is a common perception about rape victims in society. All too often, when we hear about a woman getting raped, people almost always instinctively begin to blame her. "Well she shouldn't have been wearing such a short skirt." "She shouldn't have gotten drunk." "She shouldn't have talked to strangers." "She shouldn't have gone out on a blind date." As if doing any of those things somehow justifies her rape.

Saying "They shouldn't have joined the military" follows that exact same line of thought. You're putting the complete responsibility (and therefore, blame) on the victim, rather than the perpetrator.

I don't think you said forgive them either, my bad. But by saying "This is what fighters and killers have always done," you are effectually excusing it and normalizing it, which is a perception we really should change.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16136948 - 04/25/12 07:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not excusing bad behavior.  That shit is always wrong. I'm just facing a reality that has been in place long before the Egyptians went to war.  I did not join the military because it was a violent and ugly world imo and I didn't like the mindset and I knew with my attitudes and beliefs I'd find myself in serious and dangerous conflict there.  So hey, I didn't join. End of story.  It was that easy to avoid that potential disaster.

So yes by all means prosecute the guilty this time. But don't believe for a second that that will change things in the military because I've been seeing these things crop up my whole life and they don't go away. Look, when you realize that when you go to a war you are giving up your rights to decided right and wrong for yourself and following orders that includes the killing of other humans that might be innocent  then you are the kind of person imo that won't worry about right or wrong much anyway. Or at best you have poorly examined ideas around right and wrong.  Just my opinion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16139106 - 04/25/12 08:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I did not join the military because it was a violent and ugly world imo and I didn't like the mindset and I knew with my attitudes and beliefs I'd find myself in serious and dangerous conflict there.  So hey, I didn't join. End of story.  It was that easy to avoid that potential disaster.




You might have been financially lucky enough to have had that kind of choice in the matter, but not all women are as lucky.

Let's face it, not all women are meant for college, and not all women can even afford college. Some women were raised by parents who expected you to be out of the house and independent by age 18. Considering how high the cost of living is right now, it's pretty much impossible trying to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. Many women are single and don't exactly have a boyfriend or a husband they can shack up with to make the finances easier for them.

So basically, uneducated or poor women only have a handful of choices if they want to make enough money to have any kind of decent life. They can either be live-in nannies, be drug dealers, or strippers, or some other type of sex worker, or they can join the military.

It's not like uneducated or poor men who can still choose to work construction, or on the oil rigs, and still make a nice chunk of change and live decently well. While some women are able to do those jobs, many women can't because they are physically compromised, and there is still employment discrimination in those types of jobs.

So, I just don't think saying "They simply shouldn't join" is really a feasible solution. For some women, it's really not a feasible solution.

It's the same way for men too. Both men and women who join the military are typically motivated by lack of finances, and need some type of direction in their life. And the military is a good way to support yourself while keeping yourself out of trouble. It's a lot better than dealing drugs or being an escort.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16139614 - 04/25/12 10:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Not my problem.

It's interesting that you think killing people in foreign lands is staying out of trouble. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16139653 - 04/25/12 10:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's interesting that you think killing people in foreign lands is staying out of trouble. :haha:




Women aren't sent to front-line infantry, so in the case of women, yes they do generally stay out of trouble. Drug-dealing and prostitution comes with a certain lifestyle and potential prison terms.

Don't get me wrong, I am extremely misanthropic and generally very untrustring of the military. I don't believe all that bullshit about them being "heroes." Fuck no they're not, they're fucking murderers, okay? There's a lot of BAD fucking dudes in the military. But it's the government that's forcing them to do those things in the name of "'Murrica!"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16139705 - 04/25/12 10:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Women find a different kind of trouble in the military as we both well know from this topic.

Any way  it's not my problem as I said.  Just a topic for interesting discussion and I think we've pretty well hashed it out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16154699 - 04/29/12 11:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Icelander - I've always thought your viewpoints are pretty solid, and well thought out.  But Crystal is right about your attitude towards rape victims - it's totally fucked.

I understand that there are certain things you can do to limit the exposure you have to the risk of potentially harmful situations - but it's sad that women have to live in a world where they're always on the defensive, always skirting around certain situations, always having to be on the ball for fear of some aggressive fuckwit thinking he has the right to force them.

It's attitudes like the one you're expresing in this thread that perpetuate an environment where the burden of proof is on the victim and not the accused.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16154781 - 04/29/12 11:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

And what is my attitude exactly?  Play it back for me and I'll tell you what you got wrong along with everyone else here who's criticized it. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16154812 - 04/29/12 12:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting.




How about your very first post?  It essentially says:

Women should not join the military, as they might get raped.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16154830 - 04/29/12 12:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Never said that, see there ya go.  I addressed that issue in later posts as to what I said and what it meant.

Oh and I agree that a woman should be able to walk alone down a dark alley in any place in the world but I'm not going to recommend it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16155235 - 04/29/12 02:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Icelander - I've always thought your viewpoints are pretty solid, and well thought out.  But Crystal is right about your attitude towards rape victims - it's totally fucked.

I understand that there are certain things you can do to limit the exposure you have to the risk of potentially harmful situations - but it's sad that women have to live in a world where they're always on the defensive, always skirting around certain situations, always having to be on the ball for fear of some aggressive fuckwit thinking he has the right to force them.

It's attitudes like the one you're expresing in this thread that perpetuate an environment where the burden of proof is on the victim and not the accused.




Thank you. You are precisely correct about the burden of proof being placed completely on the victim and not the rapist. Many times even the police department acts this way towards rape victims. If you go to weretelling.tumblr.com and read the anonymous rape stories, you will read all sorts of stories. The most recent story I read was about a drug-using porn star who was raped (ON FUCKING FILM!), and then the investigators didn't even take her story seriously because of her drug use and occupation. Her rape was never prosecuted, and throughout the entire investigative process the detectives were incredibly accusatory to her.

In a way, you have to be "the perfect victim" if you actually want your rape to be prosecuted. You have to be modestly dressed, you have to be married, you have to be above 30 or under 18, you can't EVER have had a questionable sexual history, you have to be completely sober at the time of the rape, you can't EVER have taken drugs, and you can't EVER have known the rapist prior to the rape. Any of these things make details about a rape "questionable" in the police's eyes. It's completely fucked how society treats rape victims, and is precisely the reason we even had SlutWalk protests to begin with (which I participated in).

It just really really bothers me knowing that if I ever get raped, it will not be taken seriously. I'm a swinger by lifestyle choice, I like to take drugs, I'm not married, sometimes when I want to have a good time I drink and dress up. Doing any of these things doesn't make me "deserving" of a rape. It doesn't justify whatever the rapist did. Just because I'm a swinger and live a "slutty" life and take drugs, doesn't mean I was asking for it. Even porn stars and prostitutes deserve the right to say "no."

I was having this exact same argument with somebody on Youtube the other day. He was claiming that "telling a woman not to dress slutty to avoid getting raped isn't offensive. It's just good advice. It's analogous to telling somebody to lock their car door if they're in a bad neighborhood."

This is the message that I sent him:

Quote:

That's actually not an analogous statement at all.

According to you, women shouldn't be raped because they A) drink B) go out in public C) walk down dark alleys D) have sex E) wear clothing F) are pretty G) whatever, but if they do these things, they shouldn't be surprised if they get raped.

The comparison for this isn't, "I shouldn't be surprised if I get robbed if I leave my door unlocked."

The comparison is, "I shouldn't be surprised if I get robbed if I carry a purse or a wallet, or spend money in public, or leave the house wearing anything but a burlap sack (thus indicating I have money to purchase clothing), or have a job, or talk about my job, or reveal my salary to friends, or have a bank account and go to the bank in public. I mean, let's be reasonable, anybody could see me doing any of those things and intuit that I have money, and so naturally they're going to try and take my money."

That wouldn't be unreasonable, would it? I mean, that's what a robber would look for in a target. But we don't consider people who leave the house with their purses and purchase goods in public stores to be really reckless and stupid and deserving of their eventual robbery, because jesus christ, that's just normal stuff that every person in the world does.

But we do think it's unreasonable for women to leave the house looking like women, and acting like women in public, and they are really reckless and stupid and deserving of their eventual rape, because jesus christ, they made the choice to do these obviously dangerous things.

It's not unreasonable to believe that criminals with criminal goals will target individuals as victims that will yield them the highest rate of success and the lowest possibility of punishment. And criminals with criminal goals will make those determinations of success based on cultural indicators within the victim's appearance and physical location.




Edited by Crystal G (04/29/12 02:43 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #16155345 - 04/29/12 03:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone who thinks a woman deserves to be raped or is asking for it due to how they dress  is a dangerous idiot and my advice would be to be careful around them and avoid them whenever possible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16157755 - 04/30/12 12:26 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

you clearly show the common woman mentality, "don't say anything, it's better"

that is clearly your fault for having that perspective, and no one else's. If I am working at a bank, and some guy busts in the door, holds a gun to my head, kidnaps me, beats me, sodomizes me, then lets me go, am I going to say "well I don't want to come forward because I lose all my benefits"

Maybe it's difficult, maybe I ponder it for a few days, but certainly not months, years. And what type of place is that to work! I am so tired of women thinking that for some reason they are beyond everyone else because "rape is such a traumatic experience!" that somehow they are sensitive and fragile and shouldn't say anything at all and it's o.k. Man, you said it yourself, men get raped, you can be beaten, you can be kidnapped, you can be shot, I guarantee you a guy who gets shot and his money taken and a shit beating to the face, isn't going to feel less violated then someone who got raped.

The horrible thing is the feeling of being scared and like you can't say anything because another person is bigger and will kill you or hurt you. Going into the military and not being able to testify against your rapist because of court martial is a good reason not to join the military, it's not as honourable as a person might think you know? You know why I haven't joined the military? Because if I go fight a guy I never met for my country, and get captured, and beheaded on tape, it doesn't guarantee that my family in any way shape or form is going to get a continued military pay check just because I flat lined and my blood pressure went down to 0 all over national t.v.


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16157851 - 04/30/12 12:48 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And what is my attitude exactly?  Play it back for me and I'll tell you what you got wrong along with everyone else here who's criticized it. :wink:




your attitude is that if you get hurt, run away as far as possible until you are not scared to admit that you got hurt. If you get screwed by a rigged jury then it sucks. Bad luck and it should never happen like that. It sucks to get beaten, raped, threatened by the Mafia that if you speak of what people do to you, you will be killed, or that a jury won't believe you.

A friend of my mom's when I was a child has a situation happen to her that might as well have been rape. She was involved in a situation, and the Mafia threatened her. When most people think of the Mafia they get some grand schematic in their head of some luxuriously infinitely wild lifestyle which has it's roots deep in some fucked up shit that crosses 10 states. The truth is usually it's a bunch of very cocky gang members that are willing to do anything to fuck you up, won't stop for anything, might shoot a cop.

So what she did to piss these hyped up fuckers I don't know. But they took pictures of her family, and of me and my mom, they drove by our house. So obviously she had already given them a bit of information. Then she continued despite their threats. One day they drove by her office, obviously stalking her all night or something without sleep, picked her up when they saw her in a van, beat her unconscience, then halfway scalped her. It might as well have been rape, she was seriously violated.

Now do I feel bad for her? It's hard to, she didn't go to the police because they threatened her with hurting her family and friends. But how did they get that information? And did she do anything? No she persisted in her activities to piss them off. She didn't try to run, move, then later tell her family and friends to move. She didn't do anything. When you allow yourself to be a victim, it's rough. You may feel like crap, you may not have a choice, but what are you going to do? A coward runs don't they? They are scared and run. So they are scared, but run. If anyone asks why, they have to say something.

No one wants to re live Hitler, no one wants to re live a situation where people control everything, and there is nothing you can do. But going to the military is a bad decision, going with a weak mentality, is a bad decision. People can get hazed in basic training. You can get taunted, beaten, anything. You can have no friends. You can basically have to knock someone out just to get respect. So women join? Fine, but with a "I'll be treated like a girly girl?" mentality?

Come on, the army is meant to defend your country, which means you go to war if you have to. Which means that if you go to war, you have to murder people, brutal shit. If you get captured, they might talk to you, try to get to know you, fuck with you, torture you, humiliate you, etc. You might as well live in a bad neighbourhood and fight gangs. So if you are assaulted = not your fault

if you don't act, don't change, do nothing, etc. etc. etc. etc. even in the long run = your fault

you might be scared, you might be humiliated, your might be in a bad situation, you might be all types of things. It's understandable to hesitate. But when you hesitate so bad that time and time later your lifestyle had not changed at all, it's very very bad. And you have no one to blame but yourself. On all other accounts, it's not your fault.:thumbdown: bad stuff, very bad


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16158705 - 04/30/12 05:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Your really have no idea what you are talking about and you took a huge amount of space saying it. :haha:

I think you could do well in both religion and politics. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblewhatsgrimace
Stranger
Male

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 5,239
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16160690 - 04/30/12 04:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

psh, i didn't even need to be in the military to get raped. anyone remember some cousin or uncle asking to play doctor? horrifying memories. seize and desist, mr. brain


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel] * 2
    #16164215 - 05/01/12 08:14 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military...If female soldiers are afraid to speak up, then how can they possibly be effective soldiers? 

The last I checked, letting fear dictate your actions isn't a particularly desirable trait in a soldier.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16166340 - 05/01/12 05:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military...If female soldiers are afraid to speak up, then how can they possibly be effective soldiers? 

The last I checked, letting fear dictate your actions isn't a particularly desirable trait in a soldier.




Um, what? Your statement makes absolutely no sense for why women shouldn't be in the military... considering men are MORE afraid of coming out about rape when they have been victimized, MUCH MORE than women, because of the anti-homosexual sentiment and bias that exists in the military.

Hell, men are not just afraid of coming out about rape, they are also afraid of coming out about their sexuality. I know at least 2 marines who are either bi or gay, and they keep their sexuality a secret because they are afraid of incurring homophobia. I don't think this fear has any bearing whatsoever or hinders their ability to become excellent soldiers.

Why don't you think about why somebody would be afraid to come out about rape... it's because in the military, the person that is most likely to rape you is a fellow platoon member. If you bring charges up against this person, you will be forced to continue working with them and see them everyday. Filing a rape charge makes work horrible for everybody in that division. There is a huge stigma against rape victims in the military, and people who come out about rape are often ridiculed and snickered about and shamed for it. Some are even threatened or coerced into submission or into "shutting up," and the higher ups often seek to protect the soldier, rather than the victim.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16166355 - 05/01/12 05:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16166377 - 05/01/12 05:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.




That's not what you said at all. You said the reason WOMEN shouldn't be allowed to join the military, is because they are afraid of reporting rape. When the reality is, men are often more afraid of reporting rape than women, when they are victimized.

Second of all, you have absolutely no evidence to justify your reasoning, that somebody who refuses to report a rape is a bad soldier.

In actuality, women who don't report rapes or domestic violence are often very strong women. They are not frail, or weak, like society depicts them to be. This is actually a very common misconception about abuse victims in society. Some women may not even report it because they don't perceive what happened to them as such a big deal, and they convince themselves to "tough it out" and be strong about it.

So if anything, some women who refuse to report rapes or domestic violence sometimes make BETTER soldiers than the average person.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16166735 - 05/01/12 06:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.




That's not what you said at all. You said the reason WOMEN shouldn't be allowed to join the military, is because they are afraid of reporting rape. When the reality is, men are often more afraid of reporting rape than women, when they are victimized.

Second of all, you have absolutely no evidence to justify your reasoning, that somebody who refuses to report a rape is a bad soldier.

In actuality, women who don't report rapes or domestic violence are often very strong women. They are not frail, or weak, like society depicts them to be. This is actually a very common misconception about abuse victims in society. Some women may not even report it because they don't perceive what happened to them as such a big deal, and they convince themselves to "tough it out" and be strong about it.

So if anything, some women who refuse to report rapes or domestic violence sometimes make BETTER soldiers than the average person.



I never said that women shouldn't be allowed to join the military.

Also, don't forget that YOUR title to this thread was that some WOMEN were AFRAID to report rapes...

That's not toughing it out...that's being a coward...

Anyone...male or female...who is too scared to report a crime is likely to be too scared to do the right thing in a combat situation...It isn't worth the risk to have such people in combat.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Edited by Enlil (05/01/12 07:26 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16168198 - 05/01/12 11:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I never said that women shouldn't be allowed to join the military.




No, you simply said

This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military

Quote:

Also, don't forget that YOUR title to this thread was that some WOMEN were AFRAID to report rapes...




This is not MY thread, it was imachavel's thread, and he was the one who posted that women are afraid to report rapes.

Also, if you READ the original article, the woman who said she was afraid of coming forward, said she was afraid for this reason.

Quote:

"I was scared it was going to ruin my career," she said, "I was scared if I said anything, there would constantly be a target on my back."




How the hell is that being a coward? She wasn't even worried about her own fucking safety or being hurt or the emotional or physical pain or anything. She was simply afraid of her job. And frankly, anybody else would worry about this if they thought their job was in jeopardy.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16168318 - 05/01/12 11:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah...I didn't notice whose thread it was until after I posted...

In any case, being afraid of physical violence, job loss, whatever...and letting that fear stop you from doing what's right...that's cowardice...plain and simple..

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16170233 - 05/02/12 11:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.

Not many would be imo.  I for instance am only qualified for shopping at wal-mart. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16170297 - 05/02/12 11:54 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah...I didn't notice whose thread it was until after I posted...

In any case, being afraid of physical violence, job loss, whatever...and letting that fear stop you from doing what's right...that's cowardice...plain and simple..

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.




I have to agree. As harsh as your attitude may be, I have to agree that I think it shows weakness. The army is not a place for weakness, and really if a man is bi and can't admit it because he doesn't want to get his ass beat, he is going to have a tough time with insurgents with ak-47s, and IEDs, and jihadists wanting to behead.

I in no way shape or form justify someone being raped, especially just because they are afraid to come out with it. I understand being afraid, I understand the whole thing. But have to agree that if a person joins the army, they better expect it to be tough, and better expect to admit to everyone when a wrong doing is done. In combat, in battle, nature has no place for the weak of heart, it just doesn't. Once again, in no way shape or form justify what happened to these women.

Another thing that somewhat confuses me, is that often times women will play the 'rape card' when something is in their benefit. Did those women really get raped? Was there some other issue befalling these women at this time, and pledging that they were raped by an assailant to court martial someone would be within their benefit? We'll never really know. The idea that "he was talking to me about girl issues, so I went to his apartment, I was flattered that a higher rank would confide in me" and then they were both piss smashed and she didn't expect a sexual move kind of mystifies me.

Really? Well perhaps they started to get it on, and then she decided no, and then was forced. Perhaps. Maybe she was straight out raped all together. I understand. Maybe she said no and he didn't stop. Ok. But anyone saying that a higher up rank started the conversation with "man, I'm having girl problems, let's go up to my place and get so trashed we can't pronounce or remember our names", and didn't get the idea the guy was going to make a move on them, to me is completely lying on the stand. Once again, no excuse for rape. Was this really rape?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16171612 - 05/02/12 04:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I… completely disagree with you two.

Back when I was involved in the BDSM scene as a dominatrix, I used to have a sub who was my sex slave. He was tough as nails, but the one thing he couldn’t handle was face-slapping. One day, I accidentally forgot that his limit was face-slapping and slapped him HARD in the face, and he broke down crying.

This is a guy who was tough as nails in every other way. He could handle it no problem whenever I pierced his balls or nipples or junk, he could handle it whenever I stomped on his nuts, fucked him up the ass, or sliced his body open with hooks. He could handle a fuckload of shit that normal people couldn’t ever possibly dream of handling. But for whatever reason he couldn’t handle being slapped in the face.

I met another guy who fought in Afghanistan four times, killed a bunch of people, watched his fellow platoon member die, a total hardass in every sense of the word. But one thing he was afraid of, was getting his heart broken by a woman. He was so afraid of it, that he would get neurotic in every single relationship and break up with them before they could leave him. This is a guy who fought in war, who was afraid of women and relationships. So, it’s very much possible for a person to be afraid of something that is considered insignificant, while being a total badass in a case of true emergency. Now, are you saying that this guy (who was awarded a silver medal) didn’t make a good soldier, simply because he was afraid of something trivial and dumb?

Likewise, I’ve met soooo many military war veterans who were afraid of approaching women to ask them out. Are you saying ALL OF THEM are not fit enough to do their job?

Being afraid of insurgents and being afraid of social outcomes are not at all comparable to each other. The two fears and the two situations are not even remotely similar. And it is very much possible for somebody to be afraid of something that we consider insignificant, while stepping up to the plate in a case where it really matters. People who don’t understand this, I believe, have a very poor understanding of the human psyche.

Quote:

Another thing that somewhat confuses me, is that often times women will play the 'rape card' when something is in their benefit. Did those women really get raped?




Jesus fucking Christ, you really think that happens OFTEN?!!?! The FBI puts unfounded rape cases at somewhere like 6% (and unfounded sometimes means lack of evidence, not necessarily that she lied)... so the amount of rape cases that are outright lies are very much in the minority. It really doesn't happen as often as you think it does.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171657 - 05/02/12 04:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

We're talking about allowing a rapist to continue to rape because one is afraid...

Sorry, that doesn't fit my description of "fit for combat"...

And as far as the pussy who cried when slapped in the face...I'd love to see that guy on the field...he's rambo until slapped...then he's sitting there blubbering like an idiot as they slice him up.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16171732 - 05/02/12 05:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
We're talking about allowing a rapist to continue to rape because one is afraid...

Sorry, that doesn't fit my description of "fit for combat"...




That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? In other words, THE FEAR is the reason you think they are not fit for combat, correct? Well I know plenty of military guys who have fears about something stupid, usually something that normal people have absolutely no fear over, and they do just fine in combat.

Quote:

And as far as the pussy who cried when slapped in the face...I'd love to see that guy on the field...he's rambo until slapped...then he's sitting there blubbering like an idiot as they slice him up.




Shows how much you know about human nature, considering he served in the air force.

Considering how much discipline he showed when I was putting him into that sub state, I believe he was one of the best soldiers in his unit.

And I'm sure he would very much enjoy it if he was sliced up. The guy had a pain tolerance through the roof, and he'd probably be better in a torture scenario than others.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171749 - 05/02/12 05:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure every single human has a fear of something.  Your point is valid imo on this issue.

The military is a very dangerous place imo.  A little more than the rest of life.  I'd stay way or expect anything to happen.  I'm not surprised whenever I hear of something terrible happening there.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171775 - 05/02/12 05:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? .



No..fear is something almost everyone has...

the reason i feel that they are not fit for combat is because they choose not to do the right thing because they are afraid...

Courage isn't the lack of fear...it is not letting fear get in the way...cowardice is not an excess of fear...it is letting fear get in the way...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16171827 - 05/02/12 05:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? .



No..fear is something almost everyone has...

the reason i feel that they are not fit for combat is because they choose not to do the right thing because they are afraid...

Courage isn't the lack of fear...it is not letting fear get in the way...cowardice is not an excess of fear...it is letting fear get in the way...




Honestly, I would much rather just take the law into my own hands than do "the right thing"(whatever the hell that is) and report the crime. Considering the fact that what's likely going to happen, is they conduct some long, drawn out bullshit investigation for 6 months, and waste me and everybody else's time, only to conclude there's a lack of evidence and they can't prosecute the guy anyway (which is a very common scenario for rape cases).

If she's out there serving in Afghanistan and Iraq, there's pretty much nowhere she can run to... even if she does find a way to report the crime somehow, she's always going to be forced to work around that guy. There's a lot of politics that plays into why somebody wouldn't report a crime in the military, and that branches out far more than just simple "fear."

Your point is pretty much nonsensical. As I mentioned in an article I posted earlier in this thread, over 50,000 men also showed signs of sexual trauma last year in the military. In the article, it was mentioned that some of the guys who were raped were huge, 6'5" "Alpha" types. Out of these 50,000 cases, you don't think a fair portion of them would be considered war heroes?? As mentioned previously, men are far less likely to come out and report a rape than women, because of the social stigma of homosexuality in Alpha male culture. Exactly what relevance this has to the ability to fight in war I am failing to see the connection.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16172040 - 05/02/12 06:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Your point is pretty much nonsensical.



People on the shroomery are COMPLETE idiots when it comes to rape.  It's better not to even attempt to correct/debate them.  You'll just get frustrated that people can be that dumb and insensitive - and they never learn.


:smbfacepalm:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16172108 - 05/02/12 06:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16172114 - 05/02/12 06:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Your point is pretty much nonsensical.



People on the shroomery are COMPLETE idiots when it comes to rape.




I have noticed this. They have way too many expectations about rape from watching too many movies. :facepalm:

Thank you for stating this, now I know I'm not the only loon on here who thinks this. :thumbup:

Quote:

Icelander said:
All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?




No, because many people are obviously misinformed about rape...

Like the poster who claimed that fake rape allegations are common... or the poster who claimed that "REAL" rape cases would always show enough evidence to prosecute... these are very common myths and perceptions about rape that are simply not true.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,761
Loc: In a Tree
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16172154 - 05/02/12 06:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?



Seeing things my way is one thing.  Making statements that are completely ignorant are another.  It's clear that not a lot of people on here (i.e. the ones that are blatantly misinformed about rape) have not been so unfortunate as to have it enter their lives in any way, shape, or form.  Lucky for them.  Sadly, there are some of us here who have encountered this human demon and the affects that it has on us, our loved ones, and society as a whole.  It's pretty easy to tell one type of poster from the other. 


Also:  you can't seriously be implying with your statement that my prior post was a blanket statement referring to all shroomery members.... becuase I know you're better than that, right?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes] * 1
    #16172327 - 05/02/12 07:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well than state it more accurately.  I've never experienced rape nor any family members that I know of. Yet I've done enough of my own research to know that rape is hugely common in this and may cultures.  I also know it ruins emotional and physical lives.  Yet again I fall outside of your standard for knowledge here.

It's pretty easy to tell one type of poster from the other.

And considering how common rape actually is I'd bet good money your above statement doesn't apply across the board.  Accuracy is important in these type of discussions imo. Why give others good reason not to take your statements seriously? 

As to the military considering the stats crystal has put up I don't see why anyone who would ever have a worry about their own sexual safety would ever go into the military?  I'm thrown back to my first statement that got me into such hot water with crystal.  "What, honestly were they expecting?"  Am I the only one that stayed away because I could see that shit and worse a mile away?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16184942 - 05/05/12 08:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
As to the military considering the stats crystal has put up I don't see why anyone who would ever have a worry about their own sexual safety would ever go into the military?  I'm thrown back to my first statement that got me into such hot water with crystal.  "What, honestly were they expecting?"  Am I the only one that stayed away because I could see that shit and worse a mile away?



I have to agree with this statement...and it also supports my point of view...

The purpose of a military is to have the capability of going to war.  Going to war means seeing, and often being involved in, the worst possible horrors that humans can inflict upon each other.  To say or believe otherwise is simply to deny reality.

If a person who gets raped is so afraid of consequences that they are unable to do the right thing and report the incident, then they are likely to have the same type of debilitating fear when confronted with other such horrors in the context of war.

Crystal's assertion that she doesn't know what the right thing to do is...and that she might handle it on her own is another good reason someone wouldn't be fit for combat...Being a vigilante and seeking vengeance is no better of a fit for the military than being afraid to do anything...

The military is about structure and rules.  That is the only way that is operates property.  The whole point of that structure and those rules is to maximize effectiveness, minimize casualties, and minimize unnecessaries attrocities...Failure to report such attrocities is one of the reasons such things can continue to happen.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16189667 - 05/06/12 11:36 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Being a vigilante and seeking vengeance is no better of a fit for the military than being afraid to do anything...

The military is about structure and rules.  That is the only way that is operates property.  The whole point of that structure and those rules is to maximize effectiveness, minimize casualties, and minimize unnecessaries attrocities...Failure to report such attrocities is one of the reasons such things can continue to happen.




So then, shouldn't you be saying that it's the RAPISTS who aren't fit for military combat? :rolleyes:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 2
    #16190007 - 05/06/12 01:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
So then, shouldn't you be saying that it's the RAPISTS who aren't fit for military combat? :rolleyes:



That goes without saying...they should be in jail...and probably would be if these "soldiers" weren't so driven by fear.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16190576 - 05/06/12 04:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #16190611 - 05/06/12 04:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.



I don't know how many reported rapes end in a conviction...but I do know how many UNREPORTED ones do...That's 0%...because forcible rape is a crime that requires cooperation of the victim...

So...even if 1% of reported rapes end in a conviction, that is infinitely more than the 0% of unreported ones...

And you're neglecting to consider that, in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16190862 - 05/06/12 05:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.



Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.  Currently, a soldier is required to report a rape to their supervisor, but what if their supervisor doesn't care, or his friend is involved, or if he himself is the perpetrator?

Democrats are trying to fix this messed up situation with HR 3435 (the Sexual-assault Training Oversight and Prevention (STOP) Act), but Republicans don't seem to think that women's concerns are a very high priority.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16191810 - 05/06/12 09:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.




This isn't any better of a reason to shirk a duty than fear.

You do understand what the word "duty" means, right?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16191895 - 05/06/12 09:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.



Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.  Currently, a soldier is required to report a rape to their supervisor, but what if their supervisor doesn't care, or his friend is involved, or if he himself is the perpetrator?

Democrats are trying to fix this messed up situation with HR 3435 (the Sexual-assault Training Oversight and Prevention (STOP) Act), but Republicans don't seem to think that women's concerns are a very high priority.




republicans are not perfect. I hope at least HR 3435 goes through


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16191905 - 05/06/12 09:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.



I don't know how many reported rapes end in a conviction...but I do know how many UNREPORTED ones do...That's 0%...because forcible rape is a crime that requires cooperation of the victim...

So...even if 1% of reported rapes end in a conviction, that is infinitely more than the 0% of unreported ones...

And you're neglecting to consider that, in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.




couldn't agree more. as clear as it can get


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16191947 - 05/06/12 09:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.




more then anything it's hard to provide evidence. Rape is to some people, more questionable then murder(how does that make sense right?)
There is no slap on the hand for rape, you prove it or you don't. It's question ability in court is due to lack of evidence, not team corruption where one side gets paid off. The military standard is quite difficult if your commanding officer raped you, who wants to challenge him of course. Not coming forward with it though is a big mistake, and I often wonder if not coming forward with something in the first place would make it possible to charge someone later? No evidence can be found later, it has to be provided up front.

So in this situation wouldn't you say the unfairness is to the person being charged with a crime that was perpetrated months before? The court will never have sympathy for someone that rapes another person.

As Enlil said, a soldiers duty to the core is to report any misconduct, not just for them self but for the cause of moral well being for the entire military. A person raped should never be around their attacker, convicted or not. This person clearly should have come out with it right forward, and then if no action could be taken, they should have left. To do un truthful things in the army is to corrupt the entire discipline of themselves and of their team as well. I hope all true justifications are dealt with swiftly and accordingly.

I only question what is true and untrue, not what is right and wrong. A person who is wrong clearly should be found guilty. I question both parties


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16192146 - 05/06/12 10:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.




This isn't any better of a reason to shirk a duty than fear.

You do understand what the word "duty" means, right?



I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16193304 - 05/07/12 03:49 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.




I am really glad to finally hear a military serviceman's opinion about this issue. Thank you very much for your informative post.

I completely agree with you that there are many different types of duty, and I simply fail to see how failure to report a crime has ANY relevance to how well you operate under pressure, in combat, or are able to take orders.

One type of fear is not at all the same as the other. Just like the male marines I mentioned who have a complete fear of relationships and of women, who do just fine in combat. They are two completely different fears, so to simply say that a marine would make a bad soldier simply because he is afraid of love, is a false comparison.

And yes, I've met people who were afraid of being called a "faggot" in a social setting, yet had absolutely no fear when it came to bullets flying at their head. One type of fear is not at all the same as the other, and some people can handle extreme and hardcore shit just fine, while being total pussies in a very mild social setting.


Edited by Crystal G (05/07/12 03:59 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16193441 - 05/07/12 05:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
So in this situation wouldn't you say the unfairness is to the person being charged with a crime that was perpetrated months before? The court will never have sympathy for someone that rapes another person.




What the fuck? You hear about a rape that happened months earlier, and your first instinct is to sympathize with the RAPIST, simply because a few months passed in between the time of the crime? Right, because the person we should identify with and feel sorry for is the rapist and not the victim...? Again, what the flying fuck?

Quote:

This person clearly should have come out with it right forward, and then if no action could be taken, they should have left.




What the fuck is your fucking problem? You're marginalizing ALL rape victims and telling them exactly the "RIGHT" way to act after they've been raped. As if there even IS a "right" way to act. And furthermore, if there WAS a right way to act, I highly doubt YOU of all people who has made some of the most insensitive comments about rape in this thread, would have first-hand knowledge about the "right" thing to do.

No. You don't get to have that right of telling rape victims how THEY should behave. Why the fuck should they have to leave if they don't want to? How the hell is it even her fucking fault that she got raped? Why should SHE have to leave?

I'm sorry to lose my shit on you, but you are having the exact same victim-blaming and victim-shaming attitude that you yourself CLAIM to be against.


Edited by Crystal G (05/07/12 05:08 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #16193516 - 05/07/12 05:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.



What duty does acting in accordance with fear serve?  Is there a duty to fear?

Because that's what we're talking about here...we're talking about people who do not report misconduct because they are afraid...That's what the title of the thread is, and that is what this is all about...

How is that the same as a conflict between duties? 

Sure, you can make it seem pretty noble when you couch something as a conflict of duties to two things, but what duty does being afraid serve?  We're not talking about people who have a serious moral objection to reporting a crime..we're talking about people who don't report a crime because they are afraid...and as a result of them not reporting that crime, the perpetrator is capable of committing that crime over and over again...

Again..rationalize it all you want, but I don't see anything noble about being afraid to fulfill a duty...That's cowardice, plain and simple...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16194237 - 05/07/12 12:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What duty does acting in accordance with fear serve?



First of all, I disagree with the notion that women are acting in accordance with "fear".  If they don't come forward in a broken system, they're simply acting in accordance with common sense.  But since you're probably going to argue with me on this, here are some things not reporting rape in a broken system serves:  It serves to keep a person's career on track, thus allowing them to advance further in the military and performing a greater role for their country.  It serves their interest to self and family by not closing the door to potential merit increases.  It serves to keep cohesion in a unit so people aren't forced to take sides.

My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Is there a duty to fear?
Because that's what we're talking about here...we're talking about people who do not report misconduct because they are afraid...That's what the title of the thread is, and that is what this is all about...



Again I disagree, but rather than argue whether this is about fear, I think Crystal already nailed this point already - this has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with fear on the battlefield.  It's a completely different issue, and I'd even argue that some of the toughest women don't report rape because they just "suck it up".  Again, not related to fear on the battlefield WHATSOEVER.

Quote:

Enlil said:
How is that the same as a conflict between duties?



Answered above.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sure, you can make it seem pretty noble when you couch something as a conflict of duties to two things, but what duty does being afraid serve?  We're not talking about people who have a serious moral objection to reporting a crime..we're talking about people who don't report a crime because they are afraid...and as a result of them not reporting that crime, the perpetrator is capable of committing that crime over and over again...



If nothing happens, which is usually the outcome, then the perpetrator will still commit the crime over and over anyway, except the victim is now in a much worse position for something that is not her fault.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again..rationalize it all you want, but I don't see anything noble about being afraid to fulfill a duty...That's cowardice, plain and simple...



The system clearly needs to be fixed.  The problem is well known, and as I noted in an earlier thread Democrats are trying to do something about it.  We don't need to encourage a bunch of women to keep sacraficing their careers in the false name of "courage".  We need to get behind the STOP Act and make reporting such crimes a worthwhile effort.

But it problaby won't happen with our current congress.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16194442 - 05/07/12 01:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
First of all, I disagree with the notion that women are acting in accordance with "fear".  If they don't come forward in a broken system, they're simply acting in accordance with common sense.  But since you're probably going to argue with me on this, here are some things not reporting rape in a broken system serves:  It serves to keep a person's career on track, thus allowing them to advance further in the military and performing a greater role for their country.  It serves their interest to self and family by not closing the door to potential merit increases.  It serves to keep cohesion in a unit so people aren't forced to take sides.



It also serves to keep perpetrators safe to rape again
Quote:


My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?




I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.
Quote:


Again I disagree, but rather than argue whether this is about fear, I think Crystal already nailed this point already - this has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with fear on the battlefield.  It's a completely different issue, and I'd even argue that some of the toughest women don't report rape because they just "suck it up".  Again, not related to fear on the battlefield WHATSOEVER.




How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.
Quote:


If nothing happens, which is usually the outcome, then the perpetrator will still commit the crime over and over anyway, except the victim is now in a much worse position for something that is not her fault.




Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...
Quote:


The system clearly needs to be fixed.  The problem is well known, and as I noted in an earlier thread Democrats are trying to do something about it.  We don't need to encourage a bunch of women to keep sacraficing their careers in the false name of "courage".  We need to get behind the STOP Act and make reporting such crimes a worthwhile effort.




If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16194501 - 05/07/12 01:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.




What the fuck is a "REAL" rape? I hate guys like you who think that simply because a woman didn't get her face smashed in and penetrated so hard that she bled out and scarred from her vagina, it isn't "REAL" rape and the case isn't deserving of attention.

Second, you know full well that NO "REAL" crime has a 100% conviction rate. No crime has that successful prosecution rate.

Quote:

How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.




I'm pretty sure him having served actively in duty and in the battlefield for 8 years, he would know exactly which fears are and aren't related to fighting in war. :facepalm:

Better yet, I have yet to see you prove throughout this entire thread that lack of reporting a crime is tantamount to capability to fight on the battlefield. As I already mentioned, there are PLENTY of soldiers that have fears (and make decisions based on those fears) about trivial, inconsequential shit that normal people just aren't afraid of. This has absolutely no bearing on how well they can fight in battle.

Quote:

Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...




Way to skew the statistics, those are rape cases that go to COURT. You know full well the district attorney isn't going to waste their time prosecuting a rape if the victim has had too many sexual partners, or if she was drunk, or didn't see her attacker well, or if there's other flimsy evidence that won't generate a successful prosecution.

If you are counting all rapes that have been REPORTED (not just ones that go to court), only 10% or so end up in a conviction.

It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out logically... 100% chance of hurting my military career if I report the rape, 10% chance me reporting the rape will be even worthwhile. I'm not at all surprised at the choices some of these women make.

Quote:

If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.




As it's been stated many times, reporting a rape in the military hurts the career of the person reporting the rape.

Also, you're thinking too much like an attorney. The LAST thing a rape victim is thinking about is whether reporting the crime will be worthwhile. There's a million other thoughts racing through their head before that one will ever pop up.

I really hate people who can't relate to the first thing about sexual assault, go around claiming they know "the right" way to behave after a rape, and that all victims should behave like they would. Even the police department, which usually has a conservative attitude about rape, says there is no "right" way to act after a rape. They always tells victims they should only report the rape if the victim wants to, and feels comfortable about doing it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16194573 - 05/07/12 02:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
What the fuck is a "REAL" rape?


Forced sexual intercourse.  What else would it be?
Quote:

I hate guys like you who think that simply because a woman didn't get her face smashed in and penetrated so hard that she bled out and scarred from her vagina, it isn't "REAL" rape and the case isn't deserving of attention.


When did I say that?  Link the post please.
Quote:


Second, you know full well that NO "REAL" crime has a 100% conviction rate. No crime has that successful prosecution rate.


I don't know anything of the kind...I am not omniscient, and I don't claim to know what really happened in any case...
Quote:


I'm pretty sure him having served actively in duty and in the battlefield for 8 years, he would know exactly which fears are and aren't related to fighting in war. :facepalm:




Good for you...I am not nearly as sure as you are
Quote:


Better yet, I have yet to see you prove throughout this entire thread that lack of reporting a crime is tantamount to capability to fight on the battlefield. As I already mentioned, there are PLENTY of soldiers that have fears (and make decisions based on those fears) about trivial, inconsequential shit that normal people just aren't afraid of. This has absolutely no bearing on how well they can fight in battle.



Anecdotal evidence holds very little weight...and no...I don't intend to prove anything of the sort...I'm simply stating an opinion as a citizen and a taxpayer who funds the military....am I not entitled to one of those?
Quote:


Way to skew the statistics, those are rape cases that go to COURT. You know full well the district attorney isn't going to waste their time prosecuting a rape if the victim has had too many sexual partners, or if she was drunk, or didn't see her attacker well, or if there's other flimsy evidence that won't generate a successful prosecution.



Again...no...I don't know that...In fact, the only time I've ever seen someone not prosecuted for rape is when the victim 1) recants her story, or 2) refuses to testify.  Of course, my data is all anecdotal and is the product of my personal experiences with it...As far as acquittals at trial, I've seen several of those, too...every single time, the victim turned out to be far from credible.
Quote:


If you are counting all rapes that have been REPORTED (not just ones that go to court), only 10% or so end up in a conviction.



To you, this means what?  To me, this means that there is a high percentage of reports that turn out to be either 1) not credible, or 2) not provable (usually because the victim refuses to testify).
Quote:


It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out logically... 100% chance of hurting my military career if I report the rape, 10% chance me reporting the rape will be even worthwhile. I'm not at all surprised at the choices some of these women make.




I'm not at all surprised that you'd agree with not reporting...I wouldn't want you in the military either.
Quote:


As it's been stated many times, reporting a rape in the military hurts the career of the person reporting the rape.




NEWSFLASH:  Sometimes doing the right thing has negative consequences
Quote:


Also, you're thinking too much like an attorney. The LAST thing a rape victim is thinking about is whether reporting the crime will be worthwhile. There's a million other thoughts racing through their head before that one will ever pop up.




Probably, but when you take an oath to abide by a code...and that code requires one to report misconduct...then the decision has already been made.
Quote:


I really hate people who can't relate to the first thing about sexual assault, go around claiming they know "the right" way to behave after a rape, and that all victims should behave like they would.




What makes you assume that I can't relate to the "first thing about sexual assault?"
Quote:


Even the police department, which usually has a conservative attitude about rape, says there is no "right" way to act after a rape. They always tells victims they should only report the rape if the victim wants to, and feels comfortable about doing it.



The police are fully aware that the average citizen has no duty to report misconduct.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16196708 - 05/07/12 10:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It also serves to keep perpetrators safe to rape again



If you have a leaky pipe, you can either apply a band-aid to stop the leak, or you can call a plumber.  Your fix in this case is the band aid.  Calling a plumber to fix the underlying problem is a far better solution.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.



Here's some statistics:

Congresswoman Jackie Speier Proposes New Justice Process To Combat Sexual Assault Crisis in the Military

"only 8% of reported military rapes are taken into a court setting"

Quote:

Enlil said:
How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.



C'mon. Seriously???  Do you think if someone is afraid of public speaking, then they are afraid of combat?  That if are afraid of one thing then they are necessarily afraid of everthing?  :shrug:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...



The link above shows I'm not making anything up.

Quote:

Enlil said:
If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.



That seems like a dumb solution to me.  You were talking about "duty" earlier.  What you don't seem to care about is the duty of the military to take care of its people.  If someone reports a wrongdoing, the military has a duty to do something about it.  When only 8% of reported rapes are taken to court, the military is failing to do its duty to protect its members.  Why not fix the system (call the plumber)?  Why blame the victim?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16198343 - 05/08/12 05:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?




Perhaps if there were more reported incidents as a whole, administrative attitudes would change and more could be done to prevent rape and punish it in the future.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16198629 - 05/08/12 08:57 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If you have a leaky pipe, you can either apply a band-aid to stop the leak, or you can call a plumber.  Your fix in this case is the band aid.  Calling a plumber to fix the underlying problem is a far better solution.




I'm not suggesting a "fix" at all...I'm only suggesting that soldiers report misconduct as they have a duty to...Otherwise, I'd rather pay soldiers that will follow the rules...
Quote:


Here's some statistics:

Congresswoman Jackie Speier Proposes New Justice Process To Combat Sexual Assault Crisis in the Military

"only 8% of reported military rapes are taken into a court setting"




98.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot...I'm unimpressed
Quote:


C'mon. Seriously???  Do you think if someone is afraid of public speaking, then they are afraid of combat?  That if are afraid of one thing then they are necessarily afraid of everthing?  :shrug:




I never said that...I don't have the option of testing every single thing that a person is afraid of...But I'm pretty certain that death is one of those things that most people are afraid of...I don't believe that it is possible to remove everyone that would be afraid of combat...

Of course, this is all a straw man since fear isn't the issue here...The issue is allowing fear to prevent someone from doing his/her duty.  That's really all I'm concerned with.
Quote:


The link above shows I'm not making anything up.




It probably shows YOU that...I saw nothing but an article written to persuade action...That was nothing akin to a statistical study.
Quote:


That seems like a dumb solution to me.  You were talking about "duty" earlier.  What you don't seem to care about is the duty of the military to take care of its people.  If someone reports a wrongdoing, the military has a duty to do something about it.  When only 8% of reported rapes are taken to court, the military is failing to do its duty to protect its members.  Why not fix the system (call the plumber)?  Why blame the victim?



So because one duty is not being performed, another shouldn't?  I fail to see the logic in this...
I have no idea how well the military investigates rape...If it is insufficient, I would like to see it improved.  I do not, however, agree with the assertion that a failure of the military to adequately investigate relieves a person from their duty to report misconduct.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16199619 - 05/08/12 02:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Just so you know, I found a government page that backs up the 8% of prosecuted rapes figures: http://speier.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=534:new-bill-aims-to-help-victims-of-military-rape-sexual-assault&catid=2:jackie-in-the-news&Itemid=15

So the statistics are legit.

Journalists don't just make statistics up, that's actually against the universal journalist code of ethics (and yes, there is one). :facepalm: those statistics have to come from somewhere legitimate. If journalists just went and made up news, the media wouldn't be considered one of the acceptable sources in academia.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16199771 - 05/08/12 02:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Apparently the military has a really bad history of blaming the victim, discouraging them from reporting, which does not surprise me one bit: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-marshall30jan30,0,510658.story

It was so bad a bunch of veterans even filed a class action lawsuit against the pentagon for how the military treats rape victims.
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=12926111

Not only are they discouraged by their entire platoon from reporting, they are even told to RESPECT their assailant. So, to simply say women aren't reporting out of "fear," vastly oversimplifies the situation.

I completely agree with falcon. If they treat rape victims like this, then it only makes common sense not to report a rape. Why even bother, and waste everybodys time, and add to your stress and misery, only to create unit disarray and conflict.

If anything, you could argue that veterans who don't report a rape make BETTER soldiers, because they place a higher priority on unit cohesion rather than trying to only do what's self gratifying. Their concern is about the entire platoon, not just themselves.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16199807 - 05/08/12 03:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"What, honestly were they expecting?"





I think a lot of people misinterpret this statement.  Expecting is not the same as deserving.  You may expect a woman in the military to be raped, but that does not mean that she deserves to be raped. 

Saying somebody should expect it is not blaming the victim.  Its acknowledging the prevalence of the crime in that situation as a function of that situation.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: DieCommie]
    #16199977 - 05/08/12 04:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've been ignoring this thread but I finally read the original post.  There are two women quoted.  What happened to them?  They got fucking shitfaced drunk and then they say something else happened.  Anybody else remember the case of a certain (other) Crystal and rape allegations?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16199991 - 05/08/12 04:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You linked the exact same source...

In any case, any victim can prevent being raped at any time...That is a fact...all he/she has to do is give consent and it is no longer rape.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16200057 - 05/08/12 04:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You linked the exact same source...

In any case, any victim can prevent being raped at any time...That is a fact...all he/she has to do is give consent and it is no longer rape.



:facepalm:


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200064 - 05/08/12 04:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
:facepalm:



Just trying to offer solutions...

The effect is the same as not reporting...no conviction...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200084 - 05/08/12 04:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I got an idea.  I can come to your house and take everything you own but you could make it not be theft by saying you gave it to me.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200087 - 05/08/12 04:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I got an idea.  I can come to your house and take everything you own but you could make it not be theft by saying you gave it to me.



Whether I do that or I just refuse to report it and try to get my shit back, what's the difference?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200095 - 05/08/12 04:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You linked the exact same source...

In any case, any victim can prevent being raped at any time...That is a fact...all he/she has to do is give consent and it is no longer rape.



:facepalm:




HAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAH

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA

Man, that has to be the dumbest comment I've ever heard in real-life AND on the internet.

It's so dumb it's practically worth putting in my signature.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200103 - 05/08/12 04:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you are completely fine with eliminating any possibility of criminal prosecution by choosing not to report...but doing the same thing by choosing to give consent is the "dumbest comment [you've] ever heard..."

At least my way avoids some violence in some situations...not all, mind you...but some.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16200106 - 05/08/12 04:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

A (supposed) lawyer pWned by a pole dancer.  Priceless.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200113 - 05/08/12 04:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still waiting to hear the difference between the two. Crystal seems to think that it's okay not to report a crime despite having a duty to do so because in some cases reporting has negative consequences...

Well, in some cases, failing to consent has negative consequences that can be avoided by consenting...so why not take it one step further toward harm reduction?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200120 - 05/08/12 04:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So you are completely fine with eliminating any possibility of criminal prosecution by choosing not to report...but doing the same thing by choosing to give consent is the "dumbest comment [you've] ever heard..."




Right. And anybody who is about to get murdered, should simply consent it to it, so that it no longer becomes murder, it becomes assisted suicide. :rolleyes:

Quote:

At least my way avoids some violence in some situations...not all, mind you...but some.





No. It doesn't. If you knew anything about rape and rapist profiling and typology, which it is plainly obvious you don't, you would know that 80% of rapists run away when the victim FIGHTS BACK and ASSAULTS her attacker. Not by being compliant... being compliant has the completely opposite effect.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200130 - 05/08/12 04:42 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So you are completely fine with eliminating any possibility of criminal prosecution by choosing not to report...but doing the same thing by choosing to give consent is the "dumbest comment [you've] ever heard..."




Right. And anybody who is about to get murdered, should simply consent it to it, so that it no longer becomes murder, it becomes assisted suicide. :rolleyes:




assisted suicide=murder...lack of consent isn't an element of a murder charge
Quote:


Quote:

At least my way avoids some violence in some situations...not all, mind you...but some.





No. It doesn't. If you knew anything about rape and rapist profiling and typology, which it is plainly obvious you don't, you would know that 80% of rapists run away when the victim FIGHTS BACK and ASSAULTS her attacker. Not by being compliant... being compliant has the completely opposite effect.



You must have missed the word "some"...Or is it your thesis that every single rape will get more violent in the presence of consent?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200134 - 05/08/12 04:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm still waiting to hear the difference between the two. Crystal seems to think that it's okay not to report a crime despite having a duty to do so because in some cases reporting has negative consequences...




I disagree strongly with her position on that.
Quote:



Well, in some cases, failing to consent has negative consequences that can be avoided by consenting...so why not take it one step further toward harm reduction?




I don't think you quite appreciate the affection that women have for their vaginas.  Set aside the potential for personal vigilante vengeance, which you lose claim to by consenting, how would you react if Lexington Steele decided that he absolutely had to have full and unfettered access to your rectum?  Whenever he wanted it?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200147 - 05/08/12 04:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

At least my way avoids some violence in some situations...not all, mind you...but some.





No. It doesn't. If you knew anything about rape and rapist profiling and typology, which it is plainly obvious you don't, you would know that 80% of rapists run away when the victim FIGHTS BACK and ASSAULTS her attacker. Not by being compliant... being compliant has the completely opposite effect.



You must have missed the word "some"...Or is it your thesis that every single rape will get more violent in the presence of consent?




The advice you just dispensed is FUCKING. DANGEROUS. Don't you realize that?!?!?!?

The number of rape scenarios that favor compliance, farrrrr outweighs the number of rape scenarios where an aggravated attack is necessary to deflect the rape.

STOP giving stupid advice about topics you know nothing about. People will be in grave danger if they were to follow your shit advice.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200157 - 05/08/12 04:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't think you quite appreciate the affection that women have for their vaginas.  Set aside the potential for personal vigilante vengeance, which you lose claim to by consenting, how would you react if Lexington Steele decided that he absolutely had to have full and unfettered access to your rectum?  Whenever he wanted it?



I'm not advocating for it...I'm pointing out that the same logic that helps crystal rationalize soldiers allowing fear to overcome their duty would also suggest that in some cases consenting to avoid further harm would be a good choice..

I don't know who Lexington Steele is, but it sounds like a porno name...so I'll have to take the pass on that...

But for me, it's different...If Mr. Steele violates my ass, I'm calling the cops asap...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200163 - 05/08/12 04:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
The advice you just dispensed is FUCKING. DANGEROUS. Don't you realize that?!?!?!?

The number of rape scenarios that favor compliance, farrrrr outweighs the number of rape scenarios where an aggravated attack is necessary to deflect the rape.

STOP giving stupid advice about topics you know nothing about. People will be in grave danger if they were to follow your shit advice.



I'm not giving advice...I'm pointing out the absurdity of your position...

You want to know what is dangerous?  NOT reporting violent crimes...how many rapes should a rapist get away with before someone reports it?  10?  15?  Maybe you're fine with giving a free pass, but I'm not...

I'm just saying that if you're going to give a free pass anyway, it might as well be an all-access pass.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200199 - 05/08/12 04:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

With respect to some of the insensitive attitudes in this thread, I have decided to post this link: http://weretelling.tumblr.com/

It is a compilation of anonymous sexual assault stories from the victim's perspective, and some of those stories go in detail about how terribly the police department treated the victims. Sometimes accusing them of outright lying, blaming the victim, interrogating the victim, telling the victim it's better not to prosecute, etc.

Given these stories, I'm not at all surprised that somebody would never want to report a rape. Especially if they have reported a rape before and been disappointed severely in the past.

People who think that reporting a rape actually solves anything are simply too idealistic, and don't have a very good concept of reality or how rape investigations work.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200211 - 05/08/12 05:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
People who think that reporting a rape actually solves anything are simply too idealistic, and don't have a very good concept of reality or how rape investigations work.



It doesn't solve anything...but not reporting certainly solves any problems the rapist might have from the incident

I just thought of a great idea...I'm gonna have t-shirts printed up that say "I don't report rapes"....College girls everywhere can wear them and be so much safer!


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200231 - 05/08/12 05:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
With respect to some of the insensitive attitudes in this thread, I have decided to post this link: http://weretelling.tumblr.com/

It is a compilation of anonymous sexual assault stories from the victim's perspective, and some of those stories go in detail about how terribly the police department treated the victims. Sometimes accusing them of outright lying, blaming the victim, interrogating the victim, telling the victim it's better not to prosecute, etc.

Given these stories, I'm not at all surprised that somebody would never want to report a rape. Especially if they have reported a rape before and been disappointed severely in the past.

People who think that reporting a rape actually solves anything are simply too idealistic, and don't have a very good concept of reality or how rape investigations work.




I mentioned her obliquely earlier but you also have to understand that there is a damn good reason why the cops don't just accept every woman's rape story.  Her name is Crystal Gail Mangum and she is a lying cunt whore pig.  Every rape victim should line up and smack the living shit out of the many thousands of cunts who make false rape accusations.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16200282 - 05/08/12 05:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
With respect to some of the insensitive attitudes in this thread, I have decided to post this link: http://weretelling.tumblr.com/

It is a compilation of anonymous sexual assault stories from the victim's perspective, and some of those stories go in detail about how terribly the police department treated the victims. Sometimes accusing them of outright lying, blaming the victim, interrogating the victim, telling the victim it's better not to prosecute, etc.

Given these stories, I'm not at all surprised that somebody would never want to report a rape. Especially if they have reported a rape before and been disappointed severely in the past.

People who think that reporting a rape actually solves anything are simply too idealistic, and don't have a very good concept of reality or how rape investigations work.




I mentioned her obliquely earlier but you also have to understand that there is a damn good reason why the cops don't just accept every woman's rape story.  Her name is Crystal Gail Mangum and she is a lying cunt whore pig.  Every rape victim should line up and smack the living shit out of the many thousands of cunts who make false rape accusations.




It's really not just for that reason, though.

It's also the fact that society has this twisted notion of purity, and seems to perceive that unless the victim is completely pure and modest, that she was somehow "asking" for it.

If you read some of the people's stories on that link, you will read that some victims were no longer believed once the police found out they were porn stars or sex workers. Some had the police disbelieve their rape story the second the police found out they take illegal street drugs. Other times the police even implied that the victim was asking for it, simply because of what the victim was wearing, or simply because she was once romantically involved with her attacker in the past. Sometimes the police simply shrugged and said they couldn't do anything about it.

I take illegal drugs, I am a swinger by lifestyle choice, and I am by no means what society would consider modest and pure. I would just hate to think of the idea that if I do get raped, my story will not be taken seriously simply because of some irrelevant lifestyle choices I've made.

One of the worst episode of Cops that I've ever seen, the one that pissed me off the most, was when a prostitute called 911 after getting beaten in the face by a client. The marks were visible, she was clearly battered in the face, which apparently happened after a conflict ensued over the $20 she was charging, and the client refused to pay up.

The cops came, and they basically said it was HER FAULT. 1 cop even sneered and said "you actually expect us to protect you when you're prostituting out on the streets? Don't prostitute then, you know how dangerous it is."

They weren't even going to ARREST the guy who beat her!!!!!! In fact, they ended up arresting HER for being a prostitute and were going to let the guy go. WTF!!!! And the ONLY reason they ended up arresting him, is because they found out he was an illegal alien. But if it weren't for that, they pretty much would have just let him walk.

What I learned from that police department that day: if you're going to beat a woman, make sure she's a hooker, because then nobody will give a flying fuck, and even law enforcement will approve of it.

This reminds me very much of how the police department treats rape victims.

In a way, you have to be the "perfect" victim in order for your story to be taken seriously.

And it's only with rape that victims are ever treated like this too. With murder, with robbery, with grand theft, with assault and battery, the victim's past has absolutely NO bearing on the crime.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16200486 - 05/08/12 06:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
And it's only with rape that victims are ever treated like this too. With murder, with robbery, with grand theft, with assault and battery, the victim's past has absolutely NO bearing on the crime.



I've never heard of a false murder report...

With robbery, the victim is scrutinized as well...it just doesn't get the press that rape does...It's not as good for selling papers...

With assault, the victim is scrutinized very, very thoroughly...there are also a lot of false assault reports...or half-true assault reports...In fact, you just gave an example of a prostitute who was scrutinized while reporting an assault...

Rest assured, in most states, evidence of sexual history is generally not admissible except in certain limited cases...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16200885 - 05/08/12 07:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Rest assured, in most states, evidence of sexual history is generally not admissible except in certain limited cases...




I'm aware of this restriction, but that is only in a COURTROOM setting where it is not legally admissible. The police are still free to use a victim's sexual history in determining whether a rape is even worthy of prosecution.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16202882 - 05/09/12 01:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A (supposed) lawyer pWned by a pole dancer.  Priceless.




:bondage:

I think it's pointless to continue.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16203169 - 05/09/12 03:40 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A (supposed) lawyer pWned by a pole dancer.  Priceless.




:bondage:

I think it's pointless to continue.




"May I please have another, mistress?"  :bowdown:  :lol:


Edited by Crystal G (05/09/12 03:49 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16203365 - 05/09/12 05:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quoting Enlil, out of context, in your signature is bad form, since it's very easy to ascribe to him the wrong meaning without the context. You might consider taking it out or adding his context in if you do not want to appear intellectually dishonest.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEnlilM
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 49,808
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16203484 - 05/09/12 07:13 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quoting Enlil, out of context, in your signature is bad form, since it's very easy to ascribe to him the wrong meaning without the context. You might consider taking it out or adding his context in if you do not want to appear intellectually dishonest.



Intellectual dishonesty is her stock-in-trade on these forums...I have broad shoulders.  Here's some more intellectual dishonesty:
Quote:

The police are still free to use a victim's sexual history in determining whether a rape is even worthy of prosecution



When she is fully aware that the police do not decide what gets prosecuted and what doesn't.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Edited by Enlil (05/09/12 07:22 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16203936 - 05/09/12 11:09 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Actually I originally added that in before enlil explained why he said it. I'm on my mobile now, so ill have to edit it out later.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16204340 - 05/09/12 01:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Ahh, cool, good form. :thumbup: :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16209488 - 05/10/12 01:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
So in this situation wouldn't you say the unfairness is to the person being charged with a crime that was perpetrated months before? The court will never have sympathy for someone that rapes another person.




What the fuck? You hear about a rape that happened months earlier, and your first instinct is to sympathize with the RAPIST, simply because a few months passed in between the time of the crime? Right, because the person we should identify with and feel sorry for is the rapist and not the victim...? Again, what the flying fuck?

Quote:

This person clearly should have come out with it right forward, and then if no action could be taken, they should have left.




What the fuck is your fucking problem? You're marginalizing ALL rape victims and telling them exactly the "RIGHT" way to act after they've been raped. As if there even IS a "right" way to act. And furthermore, if there WAS a right way to act, I highly doubt YOU of all people who has made some of the most insensitive comments about rape in this thread, would have first-hand knowledge about the "right" thing to do.

No. You don't get to have that right of telling rape victims how THEY should behave. Why the fuck should they have to leave if they don't want to? How the hell is it even her fucking fault that she got raped? Why should SHE have to leave?

I'm sorry to lose my shit on you, but you are having the exact same victim-blaming and victim-shaming attitude that you yourself CLAIM to be against.




WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM??!?!? YOU DON'T READ A DAMN THING I SAY!! I HAVE NO SYMPATHY WITH A RAPIST!!

Crime is hard to prove!! I've known MANY people who were friends involved in crime, and they got away with it many times because other people WOULDN'T REPORT ANYTHING THEN MONTH LATER WOULD GO TO THE COPS. Is that NOT THE MOST RETARDED CONCEPT EVER??! So you are raped, and not strong enough to force someone off you. Fucking A, now you have enough sympathy to get help from people who are obligated under law to help you, all you HAVE TO DO IS REPORT it, but now I get you in my face because I don't agree with you??! Fuck off! I have my own opinion, why don't you quote how many times I said "I DON'T SYMPATHIZE WITH RAPISTS!" Did I NOT SAY IT even ONCE??! Fucking A!!

They may have their own dedication, right? According to wolverine? Well guess what god expects you to be strong, there is no place for weak people on gods earth. Sorry. A religion that expects a woman to be submissive? Or wait, what did he mean by that? I am simply saying, in the eyes of the court, without evidence a proper trial cannot be help. Things get so much worst without reporting something at all. I am not going to lie and tell you I agree with you to make you happy. Sorry


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16209595 - 05/10/12 01:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:



Way to skew the statistics, those are rape cases that go to COURT. You know full well the district attorney isn't going to waste their time prosecuting a rape if the victim has had too many sexual partners, or if she was drunk, or didn't see her attacker well, or if there's other flimsy evidence that won't generate a successful prosecution.

If you are counting all rapes that have been REPORTED (not just ones that go to court), only 10% or so end up in a conviction.

It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out logically... 100% chance of hurting my military career if I report the rape, 10% chance me reporting the rape will be even worthwhile. I'm not at all surprised at the choices some of these women make.






and it is their choice to make them. The worst thing possible is the idea that they couldn't voice them self. They always should be able to. And always should. The district attorney maybe should make better choices. But if no evidence is available to convict someone, because they didn't come forward soon enough, then nothing could be done, whether the district attorney is an unfair ass hole or not.

If I went to your place and we got drunk, and I left, and no one knew if we get it on or not, then 3 months later you say I raped you, and no evidence is present, what would you think if you were the judge? Isn't it just a little bit weird? Thank you for understanding both points of views. I cannot agree with you and simply say rape is wrong and dammit a woman can come out four years later and claim rape. In the eyes of the court if no evidence is present, how can you convict me if I've done nothing to you?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16209653 - 05/10/12 01:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm still waiting to hear the difference between the two. Crystal seems to think that it's okay not to report a crime despite having a duty to do so because in some cases reporting has negative consequences...




I disagree strongly with her position on that.
Quote:



Well, in some cases, failing to consent has negative consequences that can be avoided by consenting...so why not take it one step further toward harm reduction?




I don't think you quite appreciate the affection that women have for their vaginas.  Set aside the potential for personal vigilante vengeance, which you lose claim to by consenting, how would you react if Lexington Steele decided that he absolutely had to have full and unfettered access to your rectum?  Whenever he wanted it?




dude sometimes I hate you, and sometimes you are awesome! :lol:


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16210593 - 05/10/12 05:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm always awesome.  Just ask me.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16210854 - 05/10/12 06:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Are you awesome?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16210988 - 05/10/12 07:05 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Always.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16210994 - 05/10/12 07:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16211441 - 05/10/12 08:43 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Always.





Thanks for the information


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16219639 - 05/12/12 02:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

it's not as though I'm calling crystal G a complete liar

Victoria Lindsay

remember her? 16 year old chick who got beat the fuck out of on face book, but for 30 minutes, and video taped. The judge took one look at the girls who did it, little freshman at a red neck po dunk school(I only live about 100 miles from lakeland), and decided to give them each 1 year of probation instead of 8 years in prison each. It was basically attempted murder, and blackmail, etc.

The judge didn't want to see the little bitches gang raped by big gang banging hoes in prison. Sometimes people don't get tried, I'm just saying who the fuck in the world gets raped and does nothing, mentions nothing, etc.? Fairly retarded. Who would believe them months later when so many good cases get thrown out with no evidence or a soft judge. Those chicks just got a lucky judge in Miami dade they'd be getting dildo raped by big gang chicks right about now(see how I didn't get racist? :grin:)


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16266123 - 05/22/12 04:25 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16266565 - 05/22/12 09:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm shocked.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16271705 - 05/23/12 07:42 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I don't want to derail my own thread. But speaking about trusting the military, how can you get raped and not come forward? The military is made of a bunch of fucking snakes and backstabbing wolverines. You know how many murders they've covered up in the middle east? Not even ones they've committed, but actual assassinations of Taliban members. They find a beheading video and don't release it. Now I'm I understand not releasing videos like that for the sake of the family.

But shit like finding the family member beheaded, telling no one, making an assassination, then saying "oh we just found the body." That's fucked up man, if I was in the military and was grazed by another platoon member, I'd feel I had to report it. Then again, being in the military is probably a bit more like being in jail, if a platoon member gazes at you, you better knock him out, fast. Or get no respect. You got to go into combat with these guys. Go to war, if you get pushed around in training, chances are in combat situations when you are murdering people you will get pushed around. And man, that's the last place you want to get kicked around and shit.

So speaking of, as much as I hate to say it, you get raped in the military, you better at least ask for a transfer, and make something up. I guess I'm beating a dead horse here :flowstone:


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 19,552
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16271714 - 05/23/12 07:47 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
I don't want to derail my own thread. But speaking about trusting the military, how can you get raped and not come forward? The military is made of a bunch of fucking snakes and backstabbing wolverines. You know how many murders they've covered up in the middle east? Not even ones they've committed, but actual assassinations of Taliban members. They find a beheading video and don't release it. Now I'm I understand not releasing videos like that for the sake of the family.

But shit like finding the family member beheaded, telling no one, making an assassination, then saying "oh we just found the body." That's fucked up man, if I was in the military and was grazed by another platoon member, I'd feel I had to report it. Then again, being in the military is probably a bit more like being in jail, if a platoon member gazes at you, you better knock him out, fast. Or get no respect. You got to go into combat with these guys. Go to war, if you get pushed around in training, chances are in combat situations when you are murdering people you will get pushed around. And man, that's the last place you want to get kicked around and shit.

So speaking of, as much as I hate to say it, you get raped in the military, you better at least ask for a transfer, and make something up. I guess I'm beating a dead horse here :flowstone:




Uhh, that's sort of the whole point and precisely what the liberals are trying to change about the military. Because currently when a rape victim reports a rape, the military does not transfer them and forces them to work in the same platoon around the same people. Which is precisely why a lot of people don't want to come out and report the rape and make it public.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 26,134
Loc: You get banned for saying... Flag
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16271720 - 05/23/12 07:50 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

holy shit


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16271861 - 05/23/12 09:19 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I don't want to derail my own thread. But speaking about trusting the military, how can you get raped and not come forward? The military is made of a bunch of fucking snakes and backstabbing wolverines. You know how many murders they've covered up in the middle east? Not even ones they've committed, but actual assassinations of Taliban members. They find a beheading video and don't release it. Now I'm I understand not releasing videos like that for the sake of the family.

But shit like finding the family member beheaded, telling no one, making an assassination, then saying "oh we just found the body." That's fucked up man, if I was in the military and was grazed by another platoon member, I'd feel I had to report it. Then again, being in the military is probably a bit more like being in jail, if a platoon member gazes at you, you better knock him out, fast. Or get no respect. You got to go into combat with these guys. Go to war, if you get pushed around in training, chances are in combat situations when you are murdering people you will get pushed around. And man, that's the last place you want to get kicked around and shit.

So speaking of, as much as I hate to say it, you get raped in the military, you better at least ask for a transfer, and make something up. I guess I'm beating a dead horse here :flowstone:




Uhh, that's sort of the whole point and precisely what the liberals are trying to change about the military. Because currently when a rape victim reports a rape, the military does not transfer them and forces them to work in the same platoon around the same people. Which is precisely why a lot of people don't want to come out and report the rape and make it public.




"Liberals" have been in power many times in the 60 years I've been alive. At the most there is going to be a bandaid on this issue because, and I'm going to say it again even though it falls on shut minds,  the military is a very violent place by nature.  The job of military training is to bring that violence right to the surface and then try to direct it at a target. This won't always happen as their isn't always a proper target handy.  If you want a military that doesn't act like this then you will have a weak military when it comes to a fight.  I think anyone who's studied the history of warfare would agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16272428 - 05/23/12 12:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm going to say it again even though it falls on shut minds,  the military is a very violent place by nature.  The job of military training is to bring that violence right to the surface and then try to direct it at a target. This won't always happen as their isn't always a proper target handy.  If you want a military that doesn't act like this then you will have a weak military when it comes to a fight.  I think anyone who's studied the history of warfare would agree.



I've studied a lot of military history, and while war is violent by nature, this is the first time I've heard that if the miilitary is strong, then people will behave violently during peace.

What's your source?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16272528 - 05/23/12 12:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

My reading of news events for almost 60 years.  My dads military stories from WWII.  Several friends from the war in Nam who talked extensively with me about their experiences.  What I've read about the aftermath of wars with the rape and retribution on civilian populations.

There really is nothing new here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 23,231
Loc: California, US Flag
Last seen: 3 hours, 52 minutes
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16273054 - 05/23/12 03:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My reading of news events for almost 60 years.  My dads military stories from WWII.  Several friends from the war in Nam who talked extensively with me about their experiences.  What I've read about the aftermath of wars with the rape and retribution on civilian populations.

There really is nothing new here.



It's new to me.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to post any study or policy that says people who are violent in peace make better soldiers.  It sounds like you have 60 years worth of reading to back you up.  I'm just asking for one article which supports your opinion.

And I'm not arguing about your last point - that some soldiers are more violent in the aftermath of a war; I'm arguing about your first point that people who are violent to begin with are better soldiers in any way.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16273223 - 05/23/12 03:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think I said that or didn't mean to.  I said that military training is designed to bring out the violence inherent in human nature.  That basic training gets humans ready to kill.  When you bring that type of energy to the surface and don't have a legitimate outlet for it's not likely to go peacefully to sleep and wait.  I would also hazard a guess that violent personalities would be drawn to a job that includes killing other humans. Not everyone can easily do it without preparation.  I'm pretty peace loving but I know myself well enough I think to realize I could be made violent through circumstance and training and if that happened all bets would be off.

This article might be more along the lines of where I was heading.
http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/06/3caron.pdf 

It would seem logical to me to find sexual and other types of violence more common among the military than lets say  non military contractors operating in foreign countries in non military situations.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/23/12 04:14 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Edibles   Amazon pH Test Strips

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Rape law permits changing mind during sex act
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ellis Dee 4,789 64 01/09/11 03:39 PM
by i h4te rs
* Pentagon Wants Women In Combat usefulidiot 914 12 12/12/04 09:05 PM
by DirtMcgirt
* Thousands Raped in Congo.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
The_Red_Crayon 3,505 66 08/19/05 08:57 PM
by The_Red_Crayon
* Jihad and rape go hand in hand
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 2,011 32 09/26/04 11:53 PM
by Phluck
* The Average U. S. Military Man
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ripple 3,779 67 04/05/03 10:48 AM
by Xlea321
* Military Jury Convicts Sergeant of Murder
RandalFlagg
1,182 15 04/29/05 10:30 AM
by RandalFlagg
* Rape me my friend....
( 1 2 all )
Innvertigo 1,319 25 07/28/03 06:35 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Why doesnt the military allow women in combat?
( 1 2 all )
1stimer 2,027 24 10/26/04 01:25 AM
by Civ

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
5,334 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.306 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 16 queries.