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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16190862 - 05/06/12 05:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.



Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.  Currently, a soldier is required to report a rape to their supervisor, but what if their supervisor doesn't care, or his friend is involved, or if he himself is the perpetrator?

Democrats are trying to fix this messed up situation with HR 3435 (the Sexual-assault Training Oversight and Prevention (STOP) Act), but Republicans don't seem to think that women's concerns are a very high priority.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16191810 - 05/06/12 09:29 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.




This isn't any better of a reason to shirk a duty than fear.

You do understand what the word "duty" means, right?


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16191895 - 05/06/12 09:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.



Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.  Currently, a soldier is required to report a rape to their supervisor, but what if their supervisor doesn't care, or his friend is involved, or if he himself is the perpetrator?

Democrats are trying to fix this messed up situation with HR 3435 (the Sexual-assault Training Oversight and Prevention (STOP) Act), but Republicans don't seem to think that women's concerns are a very high priority.




republicans are not perfect. I hope at least HR 3435 goes through


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16191905 - 05/06/12 09:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.



I don't know how many reported rapes end in a conviction...but I do know how many UNREPORTED ones do...That's 0%...because forcible rape is a crime that requires cooperation of the victim...

So...even if 1% of reported rapes end in a conviction, that is infinitely more than the 0% of unreported ones...

And you're neglecting to consider that, in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.




couldn't agree more. as clear as it can get


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16191947 - 05/06/12 09:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.




more then anything it's hard to provide evidence. Rape is to some people, more questionable then murder(how does that make sense right?)
There is no slap on the hand for rape, you prove it or you don't. It's question ability in court is due to lack of evidence, not team corruption where one side gets paid off. The military standard is quite difficult if your commanding officer raped you, who wants to challenge him of course. Not coming forward with it though is a big mistake, and I often wonder if not coming forward with something in the first place would make it possible to charge someone later? No evidence can be found later, it has to be provided up front.

So in this situation wouldn't you say the unfairness is to the person being charged with a crime that was perpetrated months before? The court will never have sympathy for someone that rapes another person.

As Enlil said, a soldiers duty to the core is to report any misconduct, not just for them self but for the cause of moral well being for the entire military. A person raped should never be around their attacker, convicted or not. This person clearly should have come out with it right forward, and then if no action could be taken, they should have left. To do un truthful things in the army is to corrupt the entire discipline of themselves and of their team as well. I hope all true justifications are dealt with swiftly and accordingly.

I only question what is true and untrue, not what is right and wrong. A person who is wrong clearly should be found guilty. I question both parties


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #16192146 - 05/06/12 10:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Reporting a rape has a better chance of hurting a soldier's career than punishing the perpetrator.




This isn't any better of a reason to shirk a duty than fear.

You do understand what the word "duty" means, right?



I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16193304 - 05/07/12 03:49 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.




I am really glad to finally hear a military serviceman's opinion about this issue. Thank you very much for your informative post.

I completely agree with you that there are many different types of duty, and I simply fail to see how failure to report a crime has ANY relevance to how well you operate under pressure, in combat, or are able to take orders.

One type of fear is not at all the same as the other. Just like the male marines I mentioned who have a complete fear of relationships and of women, who do just fine in combat. They are two completely different fears, so to simply say that a marine would make a bad soldier simply because he is afraid of love, is a false comparison.

And yes, I've met people who were afraid of being called a "faggot" in a social setting, yet had absolutely no fear when it came to bullets flying at their head. One type of fear is not at all the same as the other, and some people can handle extreme and hardcore shit just fine, while being total pussies in a very mild social setting.


Edited by Crystal G (05/07/12 03:59 AM)


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16193441 - 05/07/12 05:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
So in this situation wouldn't you say the unfairness is to the person being charged with a crime that was perpetrated months before? The court will never have sympathy for someone that rapes another person.




What the fuck? You hear about a rape that happened months earlier, and your first instinct is to sympathize with the RAPIST, simply because a few months passed in between the time of the crime? Right, because the person we should identify with and feel sorry for is the rapist and not the victim...? Again, what the flying fuck?

Quote:

This person clearly should have come out with it right forward, and then if no action could be taken, they should have left.




What the fuck is your fucking problem? You're marginalizing ALL rape victims and telling them exactly the "RIGHT" way to act after they've been raped. As if there even IS a "right" way to act. And furthermore, if there WAS a right way to act, I highly doubt YOU of all people who has made some of the most insensitive comments about rape in this thread, would have first-hand knowledge about the "right" thing to do.

No. You don't get to have that right of telling rape victims how THEY should behave. Why the fuck should they have to leave if they don't want to? How the hell is it even her fucking fault that she got raped? Why should SHE have to leave?

I'm sorry to lose my shit on you, but you are having the exact same victim-blaming and victim-shaming attitude that you yourself CLAIM to be against.


Edited by Crystal G (05/07/12 05:08 AM)


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #16193516 - 05/07/12 05:59 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I served in the military for 8 years (plus 4 years of military school), and studied "duty" at length.  There are many types of duty, which can be conflicting:  duty to country; duty to service; duty to self; duty to family; duty to god.

Do you have to put duty to service before the others to be a good soldier?  I knew plenty of people in the military who put duty to god first.  Does that mean they were unfit to serve?  I hope not, as the military is much more religious than the country as a whole, and I knew a lot of people that openly put that duty first.  It's a complex issue, but I side with Crystal G on this.



What duty does acting in accordance with fear serve?  Is there a duty to fear?

Because that's what we're talking about here...we're talking about people who do not report misconduct because they are afraid...That's what the title of the thread is, and that is what this is all about...

How is that the same as a conflict between duties? 

Sure, you can make it seem pretty noble when you couch something as a conflict of duties to two things, but what duty does being afraid serve?  We're not talking about people who have a serious moral objection to reporting a crime..we're talking about people who don't report a crime because they are afraid...and as a result of them not reporting that crime, the perpetrator is capable of committing that crime over and over again...

Again..rationalize it all you want, but I don't see anything noble about being afraid to fulfill a duty...That's cowardice, plain and simple...


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16194237 - 05/07/12 12:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What duty does acting in accordance with fear serve?



First of all, I disagree with the notion that women are acting in accordance with "fear".  If they don't come forward in a broken system, they're simply acting in accordance with common sense.  But since you're probably going to argue with me on this, here are some things not reporting rape in a broken system serves:  It serves to keep a person's career on track, thus allowing them to advance further in the military and performing a greater role for their country.  It serves their interest to self and family by not closing the door to potential merit increases.  It serves to keep cohesion in a unit so people aren't forced to take sides.

My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Is there a duty to fear?
Because that's what we're talking about here...we're talking about people who do not report misconduct because they are afraid...That's what the title of the thread is, and that is what this is all about...



Again I disagree, but rather than argue whether this is about fear, I think Crystal already nailed this point already - this has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with fear on the battlefield.  It's a completely different issue, and I'd even argue that some of the toughest women don't report rape because they just "suck it up".  Again, not related to fear on the battlefield WHATSOEVER.

Quote:

Enlil said:
How is that the same as a conflict between duties?



Answered above.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sure, you can make it seem pretty noble when you couch something as a conflict of duties to two things, but what duty does being afraid serve?  We're not talking about people who have a serious moral objection to reporting a crime..we're talking about people who don't report a crime because they are afraid...and as a result of them not reporting that crime, the perpetrator is capable of committing that crime over and over again...



If nothing happens, which is usually the outcome, then the perpetrator will still commit the crime over and over anyway, except the victim is now in a much worse position for something that is not her fault.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again..rationalize it all you want, but I don't see anything noble about being afraid to fulfill a duty...That's cowardice, plain and simple...



The system clearly needs to be fixed.  The problem is well known, and as I noted in an earlier thread Democrats are trying to do something about it.  We don't need to encourage a bunch of women to keep sacraficing their careers in the false name of "courage".  We need to get behind the STOP Act and make reporting such crimes a worthwhile effort.

But it problaby won't happen with our current congress.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16194442 - 05/07/12 01:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
First of all, I disagree with the notion that women are acting in accordance with "fear".  If they don't come forward in a broken system, they're simply acting in accordance with common sense.  But since you're probably going to argue with me on this, here are some things not reporting rape in a broken system serves:  It serves to keep a person's career on track, thus allowing them to advance further in the military and performing a greater role for their country.  It serves their interest to self and family by not closing the door to potential merit increases.  It serves to keep cohesion in a unit so people aren't forced to take sides.



It also serves to keep perpetrators safe to rape again
Quote:


My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?




I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.
Quote:


Again I disagree, but rather than argue whether this is about fear, I think Crystal already nailed this point already - this has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with fear on the battlefield.  It's a completely different issue, and I'd even argue that some of the toughest women don't report rape because they just "suck it up".  Again, not related to fear on the battlefield WHATSOEVER.




How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.
Quote:


If nothing happens, which is usually the outcome, then the perpetrator will still commit the crime over and over anyway, except the victim is now in a much worse position for something that is not her fault.




Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...
Quote:


The system clearly needs to be fixed.  The problem is well known, and as I noted in an earlier thread Democrats are trying to do something about it.  We don't need to encourage a bunch of women to keep sacraficing their careers in the false name of "courage".  We need to get behind the STOP Act and make reporting such crimes a worthwhile effort.




If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16194501 - 05/07/12 01:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.




What the fuck is a "REAL" rape? I hate guys like you who think that simply because a woman didn't get her face smashed in and penetrated so hard that she bled out and scarred from her vagina, it isn't "REAL" rape and the case isn't deserving of attention.

Second, you know full well that NO "REAL" crime has a 100% conviction rate. No crime has that successful prosecution rate.

Quote:

How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.




I'm pretty sure him having served actively in duty and in the battlefield for 8 years, he would know exactly which fears are and aren't related to fighting in war. :facepalm:

Better yet, I have yet to see you prove throughout this entire thread that lack of reporting a crime is tantamount to capability to fight on the battlefield. As I already mentioned, there are PLENTY of soldiers that have fears (and make decisions based on those fears) about trivial, inconsequential shit that normal people just aren't afraid of. This has absolutely no bearing on how well they can fight in battle.

Quote:

Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...




Way to skew the statistics, those are rape cases that go to COURT. You know full well the district attorney isn't going to waste their time prosecuting a rape if the victim has had too many sexual partners, or if she was drunk, or didn't see her attacker well, or if there's other flimsy evidence that won't generate a successful prosecution.

If you are counting all rapes that have been REPORTED (not just ones that go to court), only 10% or so end up in a conviction.

It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out logically... 100% chance of hurting my military career if I report the rape, 10% chance me reporting the rape will be even worthwhile. I'm not at all surprised at the choices some of these women make.

Quote:

If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.




As it's been stated many times, reporting a rape in the military hurts the career of the person reporting the rape.

Also, you're thinking too much like an attorney. The LAST thing a rape victim is thinking about is whether reporting the crime will be worthwhile. There's a million other thoughts racing through their head before that one will ever pop up.

I really hate people who can't relate to the first thing about sexual assault, go around claiming they know "the right" way to behave after a rape, and that all victims should behave like they would. Even the police department, which usually has a conservative attitude about rape, says there is no "right" way to act after a rape. They always tells victims they should only report the rape if the victim wants to, and feels comfortable about doing it.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16194573 - 05/07/12 02:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
What the fuck is a "REAL" rape?


Forced sexual intercourse.  What else would it be?
Quote:

I hate guys like you who think that simply because a woman didn't get her face smashed in and penetrated so hard that she bled out and scarred from her vagina, it isn't "REAL" rape and the case isn't deserving of attention.


When did I say that?  Link the post please.
Quote:


Second, you know full well that NO "REAL" crime has a 100% conviction rate. No crime has that successful prosecution rate.


I don't know anything of the kind...I am not omniscient, and I don't claim to know what really happened in any case...
Quote:


I'm pretty sure him having served actively in duty and in the battlefield for 8 years, he would know exactly which fears are and aren't related to fighting in war. :facepalm:




Good for you...I am not nearly as sure as you are
Quote:


Better yet, I have yet to see you prove throughout this entire thread that lack of reporting a crime is tantamount to capability to fight on the battlefield. As I already mentioned, there are PLENTY of soldiers that have fears (and make decisions based on those fears) about trivial, inconsequential shit that normal people just aren't afraid of. This has absolutely no bearing on how well they can fight in battle.



Anecdotal evidence holds very little weight...and no...I don't intend to prove anything of the sort...I'm simply stating an opinion as a citizen and a taxpayer who funds the military....am I not entitled to one of those?
Quote:


Way to skew the statistics, those are rape cases that go to COURT. You know full well the district attorney isn't going to waste their time prosecuting a rape if the victim has had too many sexual partners, or if she was drunk, or didn't see her attacker well, or if there's other flimsy evidence that won't generate a successful prosecution.



Again...no...I don't know that...In fact, the only time I've ever seen someone not prosecuted for rape is when the victim 1) recants her story, or 2) refuses to testify.  Of course, my data is all anecdotal and is the product of my personal experiences with it...As far as acquittals at trial, I've seen several of those, too...every single time, the victim turned out to be far from credible.
Quote:


If you are counting all rapes that have been REPORTED (not just ones that go to court), only 10% or so end up in a conviction.



To you, this means what?  To me, this means that there is a high percentage of reports that turn out to be either 1) not credible, or 2) not provable (usually because the victim refuses to testify).
Quote:


It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out logically... 100% chance of hurting my military career if I report the rape, 10% chance me reporting the rape will be even worthwhile. I'm not at all surprised at the choices some of these women make.




I'm not at all surprised that you'd agree with not reporting...I wouldn't want you in the military either.
Quote:


As it's been stated many times, reporting a rape in the military hurts the career of the person reporting the rape.




NEWSFLASH:  Sometimes doing the right thing has negative consequences
Quote:


Also, you're thinking too much like an attorney. The LAST thing a rape victim is thinking about is whether reporting the crime will be worthwhile. There's a million other thoughts racing through their head before that one will ever pop up.




Probably, but when you take an oath to abide by a code...and that code requires one to report misconduct...then the decision has already been made.
Quote:


I really hate people who can't relate to the first thing about sexual assault, go around claiming they know "the right" way to behave after a rape, and that all victims should behave like they would.




What makes you assume that I can't relate to the "first thing about sexual assault?"
Quote:


Even the police department, which usually has a conservative attitude about rape, says there is no "right" way to act after a rape. They always tells victims they should only report the rape if the victim wants to, and feels comfortable about doing it.



The police are fully aware that the average citizen has no duty to report misconduct.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16196708 - 05/07/12 10:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It also serves to keep perpetrators safe to rape again



If you have a leaky pipe, you can either apply a band-aid to stop the leak, or you can call a plumber.  Your fix in this case is the band aid.  Calling a plumber to fix the underlying problem is a far better solution.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know that there is only a small chance of conviction...for all I know, there is 100% chance of conviction when it's a real rape...I don't think YOU know either.



Here's some statistics:

Congresswoman Jackie Speier Proposes New Justice Process To Combat Sexual Assault Crisis in the Military

"only 8% of reported military rapes are taken into a court setting"

Quote:

Enlil said:
How do you know that it is not related?  Do you have any studies that back up the theory that it's unrelated?  I have none that show either way, but when choosing people to defend our country, I don't see the point in taking a chance.



C'mon. Seriously???  Do you think if someone is afraid of public speaking, then they are afraid of combat?  That if are afraid of one thing then they are necessarily afraid of everthing?  :shrug:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like you're making shit up...From what I've read, around 60% of all rape cases that go to court end in a conviction...



The link above shows I'm not making anything up.

Quote:

Enlil said:
If being the victim of a rape isn't enough to make reporting it "worthwhile", then I don't know what will...Maybe there should be a per-report bonus check for people...you know...just to make it worthwhile.



That seems like a dumb solution to me.  You were talking about "duty" earlier.  What you don't seem to care about is the duty of the military to take care of its people.  If someone reports a wrongdoing, the military has a duty to do something about it.  When only 8% of reported rapes are taken to court, the military is failing to do its duty to protect its members.  Why not fix the system (call the plumber)?  Why blame the victim?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16198343 - 05/08/12 05:38 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
My question to you is if you know there is only a small chance that reporting a rape will result in a conviction, what good does it do to report it, given a large chance the perpetrator won't be held accountable?




Perhaps if there were more reported incidents as a whole, administrative attitudes would change and more could be done to prevent rape and punish it in the future.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16198629 - 05/08/12 08:57 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If you have a leaky pipe, you can either apply a band-aid to stop the leak, or you can call a plumber.  Your fix in this case is the band aid.  Calling a plumber to fix the underlying problem is a far better solution.




I'm not suggesting a "fix" at all...I'm only suggesting that soldiers report misconduct as they have a duty to...Otherwise, I'd rather pay soldiers that will follow the rules...
Quote:


Here's some statistics:

Congresswoman Jackie Speier Proposes New Justice Process To Combat Sexual Assault Crisis in the Military

"only 8% of reported military rapes are taken into a court setting"




98.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot...I'm unimpressed
Quote:


C'mon. Seriously???  Do you think if someone is afraid of public speaking, then they are afraid of combat?  That if are afraid of one thing then they are necessarily afraid of everthing?  :shrug:




I never said that...I don't have the option of testing every single thing that a person is afraid of...But I'm pretty certain that death is one of those things that most people are afraid of...I don't believe that it is possible to remove everyone that would be afraid of combat...

Of course, this is all a straw man since fear isn't the issue here...The issue is allowing fear to prevent someone from doing his/her duty.  That's really all I'm concerned with.
Quote:


The link above shows I'm not making anything up.




It probably shows YOU that...I saw nothing but an article written to persuade action...That was nothing akin to a statistical study.
Quote:


That seems like a dumb solution to me.  You were talking about "duty" earlier.  What you don't seem to care about is the duty of the military to take care of its people.  If someone reports a wrongdoing, the military has a duty to do something about it.  When only 8% of reported rapes are taken to court, the military is failing to do its duty to protect its members.  Why not fix the system (call the plumber)?  Why blame the victim?



So because one duty is not being performed, another shouldn't?  I fail to see the logic in this...
I have no idea how well the military investigates rape...If it is insufficient, I would like to see it improved.  I do not, however, agree with the assertion that a failure of the military to adequately investigate relieves a person from their duty to report misconduct.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16199619 - 05/08/12 02:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Just so you know, I found a government page that backs up the 8% of prosecuted rapes figures: http://speier.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=534:new-bill-aims-to-help-victims-of-military-rape-sexual-assault&catid=2:jackie-in-the-news&Itemid=15

So the statistics are legit.

Journalists don't just make statistics up, that's actually against the universal journalist code of ethics (and yes, there is one). :facepalm: those statistics have to come from somewhere legitimate. If journalists just went and made up news, the media wouldn't be considered one of the acceptable sources in academia.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16199771 - 05/08/12 02:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Apparently the military has a really bad history of blaming the victim, discouraging them from reporting, which does not surprise me one bit: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-marshall30jan30,0,510658.story

It was so bad a bunch of veterans even filed a class action lawsuit against the pentagon for how the military treats rape victims.
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=12926111

Not only are they discouraged by their entire platoon from reporting, they are even told to RESPECT their assailant. So, to simply say women aren't reporting out of "fear," vastly oversimplifies the situation.

I completely agree with falcon. If they treat rape victims like this, then it only makes common sense not to report a rape. Why even bother, and waste everybodys time, and add to your stress and misery, only to create unit disarray and conflict.

If anything, you could argue that veterans who don't report a rape make BETTER soldiers, because they place a higher priority on unit cohesion rather than trying to only do what's self gratifying. Their concern is about the entire platoon, not just themselves.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16199807 - 05/08/12 03:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"What, honestly were they expecting?"





I think a lot of people misinterpret this statement.  Expecting is not the same as deserving.  You may expect a woman in the military to be raped, but that does not mean that she deserves to be raped. 

Saying somebody should expect it is not blaming the victim.  Its acknowledging the prevalence of the crime in that situation as a function of that situation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: DieCommie]
    #16199977 - 05/08/12 04:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've been ignoring this thread but I finally read the original post.  There are two women quoted.  What happened to them?  They got fucking shitfaced drunk and then they say something else happened.  Anybody else remember the case of a certain (other) Crystal and rape allegations?


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