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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16168198 - 05/01/12 09:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I never said that women shouldn't be allowed to join the military.




No, you simply said

This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military

Quote:

Also, don't forget that YOUR title to this thread was that some WOMEN were AFRAID to report rapes...




This is not MY thread, it was imachavel's thread, and he was the one who posted that women are afraid to report rapes.

Also, if you READ the original article, the woman who said she was afraid of coming forward, said she was afraid for this reason.

Quote:

"I was scared it was going to ruin my career," she said, "I was scared if I said anything, there would constantly be a target on my back."




How the hell is that being a coward? She wasn't even worried about her own fucking safety or being hurt or the emotional or physical pain or anything. She was simply afraid of her job. And frankly, anybody else would worry about this if they thought their job was in jeopardy.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16168318 - 05/01/12 09:45 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah...I didn't notice whose thread it was until after I posted...

In any case, being afraid of physical violence, job loss, whatever...and letting that fear stop you from doing what's right...that's cowardice...plain and simple..

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16170233 - 05/02/12 09:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.

Not many would be imo.  I for instance am only qualified for shopping at wal-mart. :sad:


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16170297 - 05/02/12 09:54 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yeah...I didn't notice whose thread it was until after I posted...

In any case, being afraid of physical violence, job loss, whatever...and letting that fear stop you from doing what's right...that's cowardice...plain and simple..

I'm not saying that I would do differently...but I'm also not saying that I am qualified to go to war.




I have to agree. As harsh as your attitude may be, I have to agree that I think it shows weakness. The army is not a place for weakness, and really if a man is bi and can't admit it because he doesn't want to get his ass beat, he is going to have a tough time with insurgents with ak-47s, and IEDs, and jihadists wanting to behead.

I in no way shape or form justify someone being raped, especially just because they are afraid to come out with it. I understand being afraid, I understand the whole thing. But have to agree that if a person joins the army, they better expect it to be tough, and better expect to admit to everyone when a wrong doing is done. In combat, in battle, nature has no place for the weak of heart, it just doesn't. Once again, in no way shape or form justify what happened to these women.

Another thing that somewhat confuses me, is that often times women will play the 'rape card' when something is in their benefit. Did those women really get raped? Was there some other issue befalling these women at this time, and pledging that they were raped by an assailant to court martial someone would be within their benefit? We'll never really know. The idea that "he was talking to me about girl issues, so I went to his apartment, I was flattered that a higher rank would confide in me" and then they were both piss smashed and she didn't expect a sexual move kind of mystifies me.

Really? Well perhaps they started to get it on, and then she decided no, and then was forced. Perhaps. Maybe she was straight out raped all together. I understand. Maybe she said no and he didn't stop. Ok. But anyone saying that a higher up rank started the conversation with "man, I'm having girl problems, let's go up to my place and get so trashed we can't pronounce or remember our names", and didn't get the idea the guy was going to make a move on them, to me is completely lying on the stand. Once again, no excuse for rape. Was this really rape?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16171612 - 05/02/12 02:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I… completely disagree with you two.

Back when I was involved in the BDSM scene as a dominatrix, I used to have a sub who was my sex slave. He was tough as nails, but the one thing he couldn’t handle was face-slapping. One day, I accidentally forgot that his limit was face-slapping and slapped him HARD in the face, and he broke down crying.

This is a guy who was tough as nails in every other way. He could handle it no problem whenever I pierced his balls or nipples or junk, he could handle it whenever I stomped on his nuts, fucked him up the ass, or sliced his body open with hooks. He could handle a fuckload of shit that normal people couldn’t ever possibly dream of handling. But for whatever reason he couldn’t handle being slapped in the face.

I met another guy who fought in Afghanistan four times, killed a bunch of people, watched his fellow platoon member die, a total hardass in every sense of the word. But one thing he was afraid of, was getting his heart broken by a woman. He was so afraid of it, that he would get neurotic in every single relationship and break up with them before they could leave him. This is a guy who fought in war, who was afraid of women and relationships. So, it’s very much possible for a person to be afraid of something that is considered insignificant, while being a total badass in a case of true emergency. Now, are you saying that this guy (who was awarded a silver medal) didn’t make a good soldier, simply because he was afraid of something trivial and dumb?

Likewise, I’ve met soooo many military war veterans who were afraid of approaching women to ask them out. Are you saying ALL OF THEM are not fit enough to do their job?

Being afraid of insurgents and being afraid of social outcomes are not at all comparable to each other. The two fears and the two situations are not even remotely similar. And it is very much possible for somebody to be afraid of something that we consider insignificant, while stepping up to the plate in a case where it really matters. People who don’t understand this, I believe, have a very poor understanding of the human psyche.

Quote:

Another thing that somewhat confuses me, is that often times women will play the 'rape card' when something is in their benefit. Did those women really get raped?




Jesus fucking Christ, you really think that happens OFTEN?!!?! The FBI puts unfounded rape cases at somewhere like 6% (and unfounded sometimes means lack of evidence, not necessarily that she lied)... so the amount of rape cases that are outright lies are very much in the minority. It really doesn't happen as often as you think it does.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171657 - 05/02/12 02:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

We're talking about allowing a rapist to continue to rape because one is afraid...

Sorry, that doesn't fit my description of "fit for combat"...

And as far as the pussy who cried when slapped in the face...I'd love to see that guy on the field...he's rambo until slapped...then he's sitting there blubbering like an idiot as they slice him up.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16171732 - 05/02/12 03:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
We're talking about allowing a rapist to continue to rape because one is afraid...

Sorry, that doesn't fit my description of "fit for combat"...




That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? In other words, THE FEAR is the reason you think they are not fit for combat, correct? Well I know plenty of military guys who have fears about something stupid, usually something that normal people have absolutely no fear over, and they do just fine in combat.

Quote:

And as far as the pussy who cried when slapped in the face...I'd love to see that guy on the field...he's rambo until slapped...then he's sitting there blubbering like an idiot as they slice him up.




Shows how much you know about human nature, considering he served in the air force.

Considering how much discipline he showed when I was putting him into that sub state, I believe he was one of the best soldiers in his unit.

And I'm sure he would very much enjoy it if he was sliced up. The guy had a pain tolerance through the roof, and he'd probably be better in a torture scenario than others.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171749 - 05/02/12 03:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure every single human has a fear of something.  Your point is valid imo on this issue.

The military is a very dangerous place imo.  A little more than the rest of life.  I'd stay way or expect anything to happen.  I'm not surprised whenever I hear of something terrible happening there.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16171775 - 05/02/12 03:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? .



No..fear is something almost everyone has...

the reason i feel that they are not fit for combat is because they choose not to do the right thing because they are afraid...

Courage isn't the lack of fear...it is not letting fear get in the way...cowardice is not an excess of fear...it is letting fear get in the way...


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16171827 - 05/02/12 03:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
That's not the point. THE REASON you think they are not fit for combat is because they are AFRAID, right? .



No..fear is something almost everyone has...

the reason i feel that they are not fit for combat is because they choose not to do the right thing because they are afraid...

Courage isn't the lack of fear...it is not letting fear get in the way...cowardice is not an excess of fear...it is letting fear get in the way...




Honestly, I would much rather just take the law into my own hands than do "the right thing"(whatever the hell that is) and report the crime. Considering the fact that what's likely going to happen, is they conduct some long, drawn out bullshit investigation for 6 months, and waste me and everybody else's time, only to conclude there's a lack of evidence and they can't prosecute the guy anyway (which is a very common scenario for rape cases).

If she's out there serving in Afghanistan and Iraq, there's pretty much nowhere she can run to... even if she does find a way to report the crime somehow, she's always going to be forced to work around that guy. There's a lot of politics that plays into why somebody wouldn't report a crime in the military, and that branches out far more than just simple "fear."

Your point is pretty much nonsensical. As I mentioned in an article I posted earlier in this thread, over 50,000 men also showed signs of sexual trauma last year in the military. In the article, it was mentioned that some of the guys who were raped were huge, 6'5" "Alpha" types. Out of these 50,000 cases, you don't think a fair portion of them would be considered war heroes?? As mentioned previously, men are far less likely to come out and report a rape than women, because of the social stigma of homosexuality in Alpha male culture. Exactly what relevance this has to the ability to fight in war I am failing to see the connection.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16172040 - 05/02/12 04:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Your point is pretty much nonsensical.



People on the shroomery are COMPLETE idiots when it comes to rape.  It's better not to even attempt to correct/debate them.  You'll just get frustrated that people can be that dumb and insensitive - and they never learn.


:smbfacepalm:


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16172108 - 05/02/12 04:35 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16172114 - 05/02/12 04:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Your point is pretty much nonsensical.



People on the shroomery are COMPLETE idiots when it comes to rape.




I have noticed this. They have way too many expectations about rape from watching too many movies. :facepalm:

Thank you for stating this, now I know I'm not the only loon on here who thinks this. :thumbup:

Quote:

Icelander said:
All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?




No, because many people are obviously misinformed about rape...

Like the poster who claimed that fake rape allegations are common... or the poster who claimed that "REAL" rape cases would always show enough evidence to prosecute... these are very common myths and perceptions about rape that are simply not true.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16172154 - 05/02/12 04:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
All people?  And because they don't see everything your way?



Seeing things my way is one thing.  Making statements that are completely ignorant are another.  It's clear that not a lot of people on here (i.e. the ones that are blatantly misinformed about rape) have not been so unfortunate as to have it enter their lives in any way, shape, or form.  Lucky for them.  Sadly, there are some of us here who have encountered this human demon and the affects that it has on us, our loved ones, and society as a whole.  It's pretty easy to tell one type of poster from the other. 


Also:  you can't seriously be implying with your statement that my prior post was a blanket statement referring to all shroomery members.... becuase I know you're better than that, right?


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes] * 1
    #16172327 - 05/02/12 05:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well than state it more accurately.  I've never experienced rape nor any family members that I know of. Yet I've done enough of my own research to know that rape is hugely common in this and may cultures.  I also know it ruins emotional and physical lives.  Yet again I fall outside of your standard for knowledge here.

It's pretty easy to tell one type of poster from the other.

And considering how common rape actually is I'd bet good money your above statement doesn't apply across the board.  Accuracy is important in these type of discussions imo. Why give others good reason not to take your statements seriously? 

As to the military considering the stats crystal has put up I don't see why anyone who would ever have a worry about their own sexual safety would ever go into the military?  I'm thrown back to my first statement that got me into such hot water with crystal.  "What, honestly were they expecting?"  Am I the only one that stayed away because I could see that shit and worse a mile away?


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16184942 - 05/05/12 06:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
As to the military considering the stats crystal has put up I don't see why anyone who would ever have a worry about their own sexual safety would ever go into the military?  I'm thrown back to my first statement that got me into such hot water with crystal.  "What, honestly were they expecting?"  Am I the only one that stayed away because I could see that shit and worse a mile away?



I have to agree with this statement...and it also supports my point of view...

The purpose of a military is to have the capability of going to war.  Going to war means seeing, and often being involved in, the worst possible horrors that humans can inflict upon each other.  To say or believe otherwise is simply to deny reality.

If a person who gets raped is so afraid of consequences that they are unable to do the right thing and report the incident, then they are likely to have the same type of debilitating fear when confronted with other such horrors in the context of war.

Crystal's assertion that she doesn't know what the right thing to do is...and that she might handle it on her own is another good reason someone wouldn't be fit for combat...Being a vigilante and seeking vengeance is no better of a fit for the military than being afraid to do anything...

The military is about structure and rules.  That is the only way that is operates property.  The whole point of that structure and those rules is to maximize effectiveness, minimize casualties, and minimize unnecessaries attrocities...Failure to report such attrocities is one of the reasons such things can continue to happen.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16189667 - 05/06/12 09:36 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Being a vigilante and seeking vengeance is no better of a fit for the military than being afraid to do anything...

The military is about structure and rules.  That is the only way that is operates property.  The whole point of that structure and those rules is to maximize effectiveness, minimize casualties, and minimize unnecessaries attrocities...Failure to report such attrocities is one of the reasons such things can continue to happen.




So then, shouldn't you be saying that it's the RAPISTS who aren't fit for military combat? :rolleyes:


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 2
    #16190007 - 05/06/12 11:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
So then, shouldn't you be saying that it's the RAPISTS who aren't fit for military combat? :rolleyes:



That goes without saying...they should be in jail...and probably would be if these "soldiers" weren't so driven by fear.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16190576 - 05/06/12 02:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #16190611 - 05/06/12 02:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Come on Enlil, you know full well from being a lawyer that most rapes don't even ever make it to trial or ever get prosecuted. Unless the rape was particularly brutal and violent or involved a weapon, unless she was completely sober and not on drugs or on alcohol, unless she was dressed modestly, unless she was married and not single, unless she has absolutely NO questionable sexual history, unless she was not a sex worker, and unless she was raped by a complete stranger and not by a boyfriend or husband or friend, the rape almost never, ever makes it to trial, because ANY of these things make the circumstances of a rape "questionable" in the eyes of the police. And you fucking know how hard it is to prosecute a rape.

After seeing how disheartening rape cases actually work in this state, I have decided I will never go to the police about a rape unless I am particularly confident they will lock him away for good.



I don't know how many reported rapes end in a conviction...but I do know how many UNREPORTED ones do...That's 0%...because forcible rape is a crime that requires cooperation of the victim...

So...even if 1% of reported rapes end in a conviction, that is infinitely more than the 0% of unreported ones...

And you're neglecting to consider that, in the military, soldiers have a duty to report misconduct...so it isn't just a personal decision to be made based on one's personal goals...It is a question of duty...

If a soldier lets fear get in the way of duty...he/she is not going to be a great soldier..Disagree if you want, but it seems pretty clear to me.


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