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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16136948 - 04/25/12 07:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not excusing bad behavior.  That shit is always wrong. I'm just facing a reality that has been in place long before the Egyptians went to war.  I did not join the military because it was a violent and ugly world imo and I didn't like the mindset and I knew with my attitudes and beliefs I'd find myself in serious and dangerous conflict there.  So hey, I didn't join. End of story.  It was that easy to avoid that potential disaster.

So yes by all means prosecute the guilty this time. But don't believe for a second that that will change things in the military because I've been seeing these things crop up my whole life and they don't go away. Look, when you realize that when you go to a war you are giving up your rights to decided right and wrong for yourself and following orders that includes the killing of other humans that might be innocent  then you are the kind of person imo that won't worry about right or wrong much anyway. Or at best you have poorly examined ideas around right and wrong.  Just my opinion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16139106 - 04/25/12 08:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I did not join the military because it was a violent and ugly world imo and I didn't like the mindset and I knew with my attitudes and beliefs I'd find myself in serious and dangerous conflict there.  So hey, I didn't join. End of story.  It was that easy to avoid that potential disaster.




You might have been financially lucky enough to have had that kind of choice in the matter, but not all women are as lucky.

Let's face it, not all women are meant for college, and not all women can even afford college. Some women were raised by parents who expected you to be out of the house and independent by age 18. Considering how high the cost of living is right now, it's pretty much impossible trying to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. Many women are single and don't exactly have a boyfriend or a husband they can shack up with to make the finances easier for them.

So basically, uneducated or poor women only have a handful of choices if they want to make enough money to have any kind of decent life. They can either be live-in nannies, be drug dealers, or strippers, or some other type of sex worker, or they can join the military.

It's not like uneducated or poor men who can still choose to work construction, or on the oil rigs, and still make a nice chunk of change and live decently well. While some women are able to do those jobs, many women can't because they are physically compromised, and there is still employment discrimination in those types of jobs.

So, I just don't think saying "They simply shouldn't join" is really a feasible solution. For some women, it's really not a feasible solution.

It's the same way for men too. Both men and women who join the military are typically motivated by lack of finances, and need some type of direction in their life. And the military is a good way to support yourself while keeping yourself out of trouble. It's a lot better than dealing drugs or being an escort.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16139614 - 04/25/12 10:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Not my problem.

It's interesting that you think killing people in foreign lands is staying out of trouble. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16139653 - 04/25/12 10:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's interesting that you think killing people in foreign lands is staying out of trouble. :haha:




Women aren't sent to front-line infantry, so in the case of women, yes they do generally stay out of trouble. Drug-dealing and prostitution comes with a certain lifestyle and potential prison terms.

Don't get me wrong, I am extremely misanthropic and generally very untrustring of the military. I don't believe all that bullshit about them being "heroes." Fuck no they're not, they're fucking murderers, okay? There's a lot of BAD fucking dudes in the military. But it's the government that's forcing them to do those things in the name of "'Murrica!"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16139705 - 04/25/12 10:58 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Women find a different kind of trouble in the military as we both well know from this topic.

Any way  it's not my problem as I said.  Just a topic for interesting discussion and I think we've pretty well hashed it out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblememes
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16154699 - 04/29/12 11:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Icelander - I've always thought your viewpoints are pretty solid, and well thought out.  But Crystal is right about your attitude towards rape victims - it's totally fucked.

I understand that there are certain things you can do to limit the exposure you have to the risk of potentially harmful situations - but it's sad that women have to live in a world where they're always on the defensive, always skirting around certain situations, always having to be on the ball for fear of some aggressive fuckwit thinking he has the right to force them.

It's attitudes like the one you're expresing in this thread that perpetuate an environment where the burden of proof is on the victim and not the accused.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16154781 - 04/29/12 11:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

And what is my attitude exactly?  Play it back for me and I'll tell you what you got wrong along with everyone else here who's criticized it. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblememes
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16154812 - 04/29/12 12:08 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting.




How about your very first post?  It essentially says:

Women should not join the military, as they might get raped.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16154830 - 04/29/12 12:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Never said that, see there ya go.  I addressed that issue in later posts as to what I said and what it meant.

Oh and I agree that a woman should be able to walk alone down a dark alley in any place in the world but I'm not going to recommend it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16155235 - 04/29/12 02:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Icelander - I've always thought your viewpoints are pretty solid, and well thought out.  But Crystal is right about your attitude towards rape victims - it's totally fucked.

I understand that there are certain things you can do to limit the exposure you have to the risk of potentially harmful situations - but it's sad that women have to live in a world where they're always on the defensive, always skirting around certain situations, always having to be on the ball for fear of some aggressive fuckwit thinking he has the right to force them.

It's attitudes like the one you're expresing in this thread that perpetuate an environment where the burden of proof is on the victim and not the accused.




Thank you. You are precisely correct about the burden of proof being placed completely on the victim and not the rapist. Many times even the police department acts this way towards rape victims. If you go to weretelling.tumblr.com and read the anonymous rape stories, you will read all sorts of stories. The most recent story I read was about a drug-using porn star who was raped (ON FUCKING FILM!), and then the investigators didn't even take her story seriously because of her drug use and occupation. Her rape was never prosecuted, and throughout the entire investigative process the detectives were incredibly accusatory to her.

In a way, you have to be "the perfect victim" if you actually want your rape to be prosecuted. You have to be modestly dressed, you have to be married, you have to be above 30 or under 18, you can't EVER have had a questionable sexual history, you have to be completely sober at the time of the rape, you can't EVER have taken drugs, and you can't EVER have known the rapist prior to the rape. Any of these things make details about a rape "questionable" in the police's eyes. It's completely fucked how society treats rape victims, and is precisely the reason we even had SlutWalk protests to begin with (which I participated in).

It just really really bothers me knowing that if I ever get raped, it will not be taken seriously. I'm a swinger by lifestyle choice, I like to take drugs, I'm not married, sometimes when I want to have a good time I drink and dress up. Doing any of these things doesn't make me "deserving" of a rape. It doesn't justify whatever the rapist did. Just because I'm a swinger and live a "slutty" life and take drugs, doesn't mean I was asking for it. Even porn stars and prostitutes deserve the right to say "no."

I was having this exact same argument with somebody on Youtube the other day. He was claiming that "telling a woman not to dress slutty to avoid getting raped isn't offensive. It's just good advice. It's analogous to telling somebody to lock their car door if they're in a bad neighborhood."

This is the message that I sent him:

Quote:

That's actually not an analogous statement at all.

According to you, women shouldn't be raped because they A) drink B) go out in public C) walk down dark alleys D) have sex E) wear clothing F) are pretty G) whatever, but if they do these things, they shouldn't be surprised if they get raped.

The comparison for this isn't, "I shouldn't be surprised if I get robbed if I leave my door unlocked."

The comparison is, "I shouldn't be surprised if I get robbed if I carry a purse or a wallet, or spend money in public, or leave the house wearing anything but a burlap sack (thus indicating I have money to purchase clothing), or have a job, or talk about my job, or reveal my salary to friends, or have a bank account and go to the bank in public. I mean, let's be reasonable, anybody could see me doing any of those things and intuit that I have money, and so naturally they're going to try and take my money."

That wouldn't be unreasonable, would it? I mean, that's what a robber would look for in a target. But we don't consider people who leave the house with their purses and purchase goods in public stores to be really reckless and stupid and deserving of their eventual robbery, because jesus christ, that's just normal stuff that every person in the world does.

But we do think it's unreasonable for women to leave the house looking like women, and acting like women in public, and they are really reckless and stupid and deserving of their eventual rape, because jesus christ, they made the choice to do these obviously dangerous things.

It's not unreasonable to believe that criminals with criminal goals will target individuals as victims that will yield them the highest rate of success and the lowest possibility of punishment. And criminals with criminal goals will make those determinations of success based on cultural indicators within the victim's appearance and physical location.




Edited by Crystal G (04/29/12 02:43 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #16155345 - 04/29/12 03:07 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone who thinks a woman deserves to be raped or is asking for it due to how they dress  is a dangerous idiot and my advice would be to be careful around them and avoid them whenever possible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16157755 - 04/30/12 12:26 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

you clearly show the common woman mentality, "don't say anything, it's better"

that is clearly your fault for having that perspective, and no one else's. If I am working at a bank, and some guy busts in the door, holds a gun to my head, kidnaps me, beats me, sodomizes me, then lets me go, am I going to say "well I don't want to come forward because I lose all my benefits"

Maybe it's difficult, maybe I ponder it for a few days, but certainly not months, years. And what type of place is that to work! I am so tired of women thinking that for some reason they are beyond everyone else because "rape is such a traumatic experience!" that somehow they are sensitive and fragile and shouldn't say anything at all and it's o.k. Man, you said it yourself, men get raped, you can be beaten, you can be kidnapped, you can be shot, I guarantee you a guy who gets shot and his money taken and a shit beating to the face, isn't going to feel less violated then someone who got raped.

The horrible thing is the feeling of being scared and like you can't say anything because another person is bigger and will kill you or hurt you. Going into the military and not being able to testify against your rapist because of court martial is a good reason not to join the military, it's not as honourable as a person might think you know? You know why I haven't joined the military? Because if I go fight a guy I never met for my country, and get captured, and beheaded on tape, it doesn't guarantee that my family in any way shape or form is going to get a continued military pay check just because I flat lined and my blood pressure went down to 0 all over national t.v.


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16157851 - 04/30/12 12:48 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And what is my attitude exactly?  Play it back for me and I'll tell you what you got wrong along with everyone else here who's criticized it. :wink:




your attitude is that if you get hurt, run away as far as possible until you are not scared to admit that you got hurt. If you get screwed by a rigged jury then it sucks. Bad luck and it should never happen like that. It sucks to get beaten, raped, threatened by the Mafia that if you speak of what people do to you, you will be killed, or that a jury won't believe you.

A friend of my mom's when I was a child has a situation happen to her that might as well have been rape. She was involved in a situation, and the Mafia threatened her. When most people think of the Mafia they get some grand schematic in their head of some luxuriously infinitely wild lifestyle which has it's roots deep in some fucked up shit that crosses 10 states. The truth is usually it's a bunch of very cocky gang members that are willing to do anything to fuck you up, won't stop for anything, might shoot a cop.

So what she did to piss these hyped up fuckers I don't know. But they took pictures of her family, and of me and my mom, they drove by our house. So obviously she had already given them a bit of information. Then she continued despite their threats. One day they drove by her office, obviously stalking her all night or something without sleep, picked her up when they saw her in a van, beat her unconscience, then halfway scalped her. It might as well have been rape, she was seriously violated.

Now do I feel bad for her? It's hard to, she didn't go to the police because they threatened her with hurting her family and friends. But how did they get that information? And did she do anything? No she persisted in her activities to piss them off. She didn't try to run, move, then later tell her family and friends to move. She didn't do anything. When you allow yourself to be a victim, it's rough. You may feel like crap, you may not have a choice, but what are you going to do? A coward runs don't they? They are scared and run. So they are scared, but run. If anyone asks why, they have to say something.

No one wants to re live Hitler, no one wants to re live a situation where people control everything, and there is nothing you can do. But going to the military is a bad decision, going with a weak mentality, is a bad decision. People can get hazed in basic training. You can get taunted, beaten, anything. You can have no friends. You can basically have to knock someone out just to get respect. So women join? Fine, but with a "I'll be treated like a girly girl?" mentality?

Come on, the army is meant to defend your country, which means you go to war if you have to. Which means that if you go to war, you have to murder people, brutal shit. If you get captured, they might talk to you, try to get to know you, fuck with you, torture you, humiliate you, etc. You might as well live in a bad neighbourhood and fight gangs. So if you are assaulted = not your fault

if you don't act, don't change, do nothing, etc. etc. etc. etc. even in the long run = your fault

you might be scared, you might be humiliated, your might be in a bad situation, you might be all types of things. It's understandable to hesitate. But when you hesitate so bad that time and time later your lifestyle had not changed at all, it's very very bad. And you have no one to blame but yourself. On all other accounts, it's not your fault.:thumbdown: bad stuff, very bad


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16158705 - 04/30/12 05:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Your really have no idea what you are talking about and you took a huge amount of space saying it. :haha:

I think you could do well in both religion and politics. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16160690 - 04/30/12 04:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

psh, i didn't even need to be in the military to get raped. anyone remember some cousin or uncle asking to play doctor? horrifying memories. seize and desist, mr. brain


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel] * 2
    #16164215 - 05/01/12 08:14 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military...If female soldiers are afraid to speak up, then how can they possibly be effective soldiers? 

The last I checked, letting fear dictate your actions isn't a particularly desirable trait in a soldier.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16166340 - 05/01/12 05:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This is evidence that women shouldn't be in the military...If female soldiers are afraid to speak up, then how can they possibly be effective soldiers? 

The last I checked, letting fear dictate your actions isn't a particularly desirable trait in a soldier.




Um, what? Your statement makes absolutely no sense for why women shouldn't be in the military... considering men are MORE afraid of coming out about rape when they have been victimized, MUCH MORE than women, because of the anti-homosexual sentiment and bias that exists in the military.

Hell, men are not just afraid of coming out about rape, they are also afraid of coming out about their sexuality. I know at least 2 marines who are either bi or gay, and they keep their sexuality a secret because they are afraid of incurring homophobia. I don't think this fear has any bearing whatsoever or hinders their ability to become excellent soldiers.

Why don't you think about why somebody would be afraid to come out about rape... it's because in the military, the person that is most likely to rape you is a fellow platoon member. If you bring charges up against this person, you will be forced to continue working with them and see them everyday. Filing a rape charge makes work horrible for everybody in that division. There is a huge stigma against rape victims in the military, and people who come out about rape are often ridiculed and snickered about and shamed for it. Some are even threatened or coerced into submission or into "shutting up," and the higher ups often seek to protect the soldier, rather than the victim.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16166355 - 05/01/12 05:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Enlil]
    #16166377 - 05/01/12 05:25 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.




That's not what you said at all. You said the reason WOMEN shouldn't be allowed to join the military, is because they are afraid of reporting rape. When the reality is, men are often more afraid of reporting rape than women, when they are victimized.

Second of all, you have absolutely no evidence to justify your reasoning, that somebody who refuses to report a rape is a bad soldier.

In actuality, women who don't report rapes or domestic violence are often very strong women. They are not frail, or weak, like society depicts them to be. This is actually a very common misconception about abuse victims in society. Some women may not even report it because they don't perceive what happened to them as such a big deal, and they convince themselves to "tough it out" and be strong about it.

So if anything, some women who refuse to report rapes or domestic violence sometimes make BETTER soldiers than the average person.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16166735 - 05/01/12 06:44 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
My thesis is simple...anyone who would be afraid to report a rape against them or someone else is not fit for:
1. combat, or
2. representing our nation in foreign affairs.




That's not what you said at all. You said the reason WOMEN shouldn't be allowed to join the military, is because they are afraid of reporting rape. When the reality is, men are often more afraid of reporting rape than women, when they are victimized.

Second of all, you have absolutely no evidence to justify your reasoning, that somebody who refuses to report a rape is a bad soldier.

In actuality, women who don't report rapes or domestic violence are often very strong women. They are not frail, or weak, like society depicts them to be. This is actually a very common misconception about abuse victims in society. Some women may not even report it because they don't perceive what happened to them as such a big deal, and they convince themselves to "tough it out" and be strong about it.

So if anything, some women who refuse to report rapes or domestic violence sometimes make BETTER soldiers than the average person.



I never said that women shouldn't be allowed to join the military.

Also, don't forget that YOUR title to this thread was that some WOMEN were AFRAID to report rapes...

That's not toughing it out...that's being a coward...

Anyone...male or female...who is too scared to report a crime is likely to be too scared to do the right thing in a combat situation...It isn't worth the risk to have such people in combat.


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Edited by Enlil (05/01/12 07:26 PM)


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