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Offlineimachavel
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women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape
    #16126144 - 04/22/12 10:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/22/justice/miltary-academy-lawsuit/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

read it. Here is what confuses me, the article clearly states that all these women who were raped were afraid to come forward with the fact they were raped. Because higher officers raped them. What confuses me:

"I think that's part of the syndrome that we're dealing with, which is that once a decision is made that somehow this prosecution is not going to move forward then you basically turn on the victim who brought that complaint," Panetta said. "That syndrome is what we have to break out of."


it's like that movie: A Few Good Men. Now is this really all true? Like in that movie, they try and sue the higher ranking officer, and it's said that if the charges aren't found against the higher ranking officer to be true, that they are court martial, and you are allowed to punish someone in such a way by shooting them up against a wall if it's approved.

Is this article messed up in a way that a woman who charges a higher officer with rape is going to not be noticed? Or is there something wrong with the idea of a woman who honestly thinks her drinking to the point she can't move with an officer telling her he has 'girl problems' and her going to his place is going to be in 'good honest terms'? Him raping her isn't cool. But really, at a normal college that would sound a bit odd, and flirty. Now at a strict military regiment did she think they were going to 'talk' if they were both heavily drinking?

If she was seriously honestly violated I feel very very bad for her. But them holding it a secret is very strange and militaristic as though something was wrong with them? If you were raped in the military would you even still want to be in the military? I find the story hard to believe in some sense. I'm wondering everyone else's perspective on that


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: imachavel]
    #16126150 - 04/22/12 10:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16127001 - 04/23/12 03:08 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you see American service personnel as basically animals, then.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16128107 - 04/23/12 01:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

duh,  and hey, guess what? So are the rest of us. But the alphas will be drawn to the military and a reason why some women are drawn there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlineqman
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16128169 - 04/23/12 01:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So these girls get drunk with men, wake up the next day with regrets, and then call it rape, what a joke. Time for these women to take personnel responsibility to their behavior, and stop blaming others.

If these cases were ever reported, the men would not even be charged, getting drunk and havin sex is not rape, time for these girls to grow up.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16128539 - 04/23/12 03:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16128774 - 04/23/12 04:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblememes
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16129291 - 04/23/12 06:32 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.


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Offlineqman
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16129381 - 04/23/12 06:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.






"What proof does she have except her word?"  Give me a break, if the women was physically struggling against her rapist, she will have all the evidence that is needed. The bruises,scraps, and rape kit should provide the physical evidence.

What about all the loud screams a women could do if she is attacked and raped?  People can hear this, even from a large distance.

The women in the case the OP showed that they admitted to getting extremely intoxicated, and then claiming to be raped. This is nothing more than a claim, no criminal report has been made to support it.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: memes]
    #16130628 - 04/23/12 11:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.




so then you disappear from the military and never come back if they don't believe you. You can leave whenever you want. They go to some guys place, after he is talking about his ex girl being a bitch, then drink all night, then are apparently 'raped', then don't report, AND stay in the army.

Seems if you get raped and stay in the army, you complain quite a lot about it, but have more issues then you think if you decide to just stay there. I don't know maybe for a few days, but how long did it take these women? Now if it's true it's horrible, but why hold out for such a long time? Were other threats made after wards like "if you tell anyone I'll fucking kill you, and also no one will believe you anyway"? Seems fishy. If it's true and I'm wrong and it happened and I'm a horrible person for saying this, sorry


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: qman] * 1
    #16131553 - 04/24/12 02:58 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

meams said:
It's not just this one story with this one instance of drinking and socially going to her superiors  house.

rape in the military happens all the fucking time - and its the quintessential 'good 'ol boy' system, so nothing happens.

if a group of men rape a woman, and they all deny it, what proof does she have except her word?  none - and the military views it as such.  plus, its bad if your troops are raping their own.

the whole thing is fucked.  and it happens all the time.  my girl talks about joining the reserves every now and again.  i get nervous every time she does.




"What proof does she have except her word?"  Give me a break, if the women was physically struggling against her rapist, she will have all the evidence that is needed. The bruises,scraps, and rape kit should provide the physical evidence.




Dude. Just stop. You don't know the first thing about rape and clearly have expectations about rape from watching too many movies.

Rape in the military is actually very common, a lot more common than in civilian life.

You know the REASON women don't serve in the front lines? It's because they have stand a very good chance of getting RAPED by a fellow platoon service-member.

It's not just women that are sexually assaulted too. Men are in the military as well. According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, 50,000 fucking male veterans screened positive for sexual trauma in the last year.

But it's the women who must be lying about it, huh? Yea, that's right. Male on female rape NEVER happens. :rolleyes:

Quote:

qman said:
So these girls get drunk with men, wake up the next day with regrets, and then call it rape, what a joke. Time for these women to take personnel responsibility to their behavior, and stop blaming others.




Yes. And this stupid attitude is exactly why women are afraid to come forward about rape.

Quote:

imachavel said:
so then you disappear from the military and never come back if they don't believe you. You can leave whenever you want.




No. You can't. That's considered going AWOL and you lose all your military benefits and can't ever put it on your resume because you got a dishonorable discharge. So you essentially lose all those years of service you put your life into.


Edited by Crystal G (04/24/12 03:10 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16131756 - 04/24/12 04:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16131842 - 04/24/12 04:46 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.




Thank god somebody else called him out on his bullshit. And yes you are exactly right, the military is all about discipline. And considering they are representing the US government, when they are wearing the uniform, they better be expected to adhere to a certain standard of conduct. Just because you are expected to do certain deeds in a time of war doesn't mean you can go around shooting and raping whoever the fuck you want any time you want.

Seriously Icelander, a lot of cops are alphas too. You honestly believe cops should be able to just beat the fuck out of anybody they want and get away with it? That they can just rape whoever the fuck they want and get away with it, simply because they're "Alphas?" You really actually believe that shit?

And not everybody in the military is a fucking Alpha, either. At least 20% of my friends and boyfriends have been military, I've pretty much met all their friends and roommates at the barracks, and there are just as many betas in the military as there are in regular society.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16132114 - 04/24/12 08:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.





:lol:You live is the same world I do sunshine and benefit from  violent nature of the military.

I have lots of discipline and why I don't belong in the military ever.  Not the military where you don't question orders but follow them only.  You live in a world of self induced illusion dude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16132121 - 04/24/12 08:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Seriously Icelander, a lot of cops are alphas too. You honestly believe cops should be able to just beat the fuck out of anybody they want and get away with it? That they can just rape whoever the fuck they want and get away with it, simply because they're "Alphas?" You really actually believe that shit?


duh.  I never said anything about what they should do. I'm speaking of what they do in reality. And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers. These guys are trained to be violent sunshine.  I don't trust military people or cops overall.  But I do know why they do what they do and that they will do it (not all of course) given the opportunity. So if you don't want some of that action they it's your responsibility to keep your distance.

And not everybody in the military is a fucking Alpha, either.

so?  That doesn't mean they're incapable when the group dynamic takes over.


Edited by Icelander (04/24/12 08:41 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16133341 - 04/24/12 03:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
So you don't think military personnel should be held accountable for rape?

What else should they not be held accountable for?

Why do you think no discipline = "Alpha"?





answer= it's the fucking military.  don't go if you don't want to play rough.

Alpha males make rules.

It's not up to me what they are accountable for.  Look what they do man. This is what fighters and killers have always done. I live in the real world.





You live in idiot world where you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're "Alphas".

The military is all about discipline. If you don't have discipline, you don't belong in the military.





:lol:You live is the same world I do sunshine and benefit from  violent nature of the military.

I have lots of discipline and why I don't belong in the military ever.  Not the military where you don't question orders but follow them only.  You live in a world of self induced illusion dude.




Nobody benefits from an undisciplined military. You seem to think that for some reason, rapists should be immune from the law just because they are in the military, why is that exactly?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #16133589 - 04/24/12 04:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

When did I say that?  Show me.  You could use some discipline in your thinking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16133813 - 04/24/12 05:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
duh.  I never said anything about what they should do. I'm speaking of what they do in reality. And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers. These guys are trained to be violent sunshine.  I don't trust military people or cops overall.  But I do know why they do what they do and that they will do it (not all of course) given the opportunity. So if you don't want some of that action they it's your responsibility to keep your distance.




And why are you blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators who deserve the blame?

It's exactly these very same types of attitudes that makes people afraid to come forward about being a rape victim.

Quote:

And people who say they "should" behave are fucking dreamers.




So then, the US court martials who convict soldiers of committing violent crimes are just dreaming, right? Because that's exactly how the military handles crimes perpetrated by soldiers.

Sorry, but your attitude is bull. I've met plenty of guys who went to war in the front-lines, dated a few as well, and they never freaked out or had any violent or explosive tendencies. If you're going to forgive or excuse somebody for killing or raping simply because they went to war, then why don't we also forgive child molesters simply because they were molested at a young age, or forgive abusers simply because they were abused at a young age, etc. etc.


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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Crystal G]
    #16134064 - 04/24/12 06:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not blaming the victims, where did I say that?  :tongue:
You and baby hitler seem to have the same comprehension problems.

I said "what do they expect"

The military tends to deal with it's problems only when they come under public scrutiny.  So yeah, you're dreaming if you think the military is under control in these areas.  In warfare rape of women is common among other atrocities.  Most are never ever dealt with.

And again I never said I forgive anyone. There's that comprehension problem again.

Lets me state it once more in the  vain hope that it will be understood.  The military is  a place of war.  Warriors tend to be violent and aggressive  due to inclination and training. While there are some decent people there many are not even near that.  To associate in that company has inherent  dangers. Go there at your own risk and with your eyes open.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: women in the military are afraid to come forward about rape [Re: Icelander]
    #16136074 - 04/25/12 01:24 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm not blaming the victims, where did I say that?  :tongue:




:laugh: I don't think you were intending to blame the victim, but when you say things like "They shouldn't  join.  I really don't know what they were expecting," or "Don't go if you don't want to play rough," you're basically putting it on the responsibility of the woman to not get herself raped. So instead of putting the blame on the rapist, you are putting blame on the victim.

Sadly, this is a common perception about rape victims in society. All too often, when we hear about a woman getting raped, people almost always instinctively begin to blame her. "Well she shouldn't have been wearing such a short skirt." "She shouldn't have gotten drunk." "She shouldn't have talked to strangers." "She shouldn't have gone out on a blind date." As if doing any of those things somehow justifies her rape.

Saying "They shouldn't have joined the military" follows that exact same line of thought. You're putting the complete responsibility (and therefore, blame) on the victim, rather than the perpetrator.

I don't think you said forgive them either, my bad. But by saying "This is what fighters and killers have always done," you are effectually excusing it and normalizing it, which is a perception we really should change.


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