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Offlinesaltyd
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Does it need to be fully colonized to case?
    #16099331 - 04/16/12 08:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is the first time I'm growing in a tub, using dried pastuerized horse manure.  It's been over a week and it's still only a third colonized.  Does it need to be fully colonized for me to case it?  I'm just worried it will start drying out.  I don't know why it's moving so slowwww..

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OfflineDazed Belief
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: saltyd]
    #16099410 - 04/16/12 09:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

a week isnt a long time some can take up to a month to colonize
and no worry they wont die out on ya
and yes the have to be fully colonized before you case


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Invisiblecubes4cancer
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Dazed Belief]
    #16099475 - 04/16/12 09:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i just got schooled about this very thing by RR a few weeks back,first take it easy if its your first grow,leave your sub uncased it doesn't need it,it might be the downfall of your whole operation due to contams.if you must case you need to do it at 80-90% colonization, that was RR's take on it.you could apply it late as well after pinning begins.but its probably in your best interest not to use one at all.


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Offlineelkart
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: cubes4cancer]
    #16099498 - 04/16/12 09:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

mono's don't need casing. What sort of tub are you using?


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OfflineDazed Belief
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: cubes4cancer]
    #16099512 - 04/16/12 09:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

cubes4cancer said:
i just got schooled about this very thing by RR a few weeks back,first take it easy if its your first grow,leave your sub uncased it doesn't need it,it might be the downfall of your whole operation due to contams.if you must case you need to do it at 80-90% colonization, that was RR's take on it.you could apply it late as well after pinning begins.but its probably in your best interest not to use one at all.




why 80-90% colonized
i would think that would leave more room for contams


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Offlineelkart
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Dazed Belief]
    #16099535 - 04/16/12 09:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dazed Belief said:
why 80-90% colonized
i would think that would leave more room for contams




I would think because it isn't completely established, it will more easily conquer the new casing. If it's a solid block, the edges are already closed off, so to speak.


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InvisibleBeefy1
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: saltyd]
    #16099541 - 04/16/12 09:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

saltyd said:
Does it need to be fully colonized for me to case it?  I'm just worried it will start drying out.  I don't know why it's moving so slowwww..





Absolutely needs to be fully colonized to case.  No need to case a monotub though.


A week isn't a long time.


Drying out isn't as big of an issue as too much moisture.  You can always rehydrate it after it's fully colonized.

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Offlineelkart
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Beefy1]
    #16099571 - 04/16/12 09:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Most tend to wait around 2 weeks (for a mono)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: elkart]
    #16100541 - 04/17/12 02:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Lots of bad info above. 

It's true that bulk substrates such as manure don't need to be cased to perform well with P cubensis, but if one is going to case, the substrate does not need to be fully colonized first.  Some of the old teks called for casing at the same time as the bulk substrate is mixed, while others call for casing at 80% to 100% colonization.  It really doesn't matter much, and depending on conditions, either will work well, as will no casing layer at all.
RR


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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16100576 - 04/17/12 02:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Can you elaborate a little?

It does not matter if you case at only 80%?


Does it not hurt to potentially introduce contaminants to uncolonized substrate?


Casing at the same time as spawning seems like it would fuck things up too.  Smother the substrate,  slow down colonization maybe.  I thought myc would spread through even plain verm.  is overlay a bad thing still?

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OfflineSlimeySlugNug
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Beefy1]
    #21791062 - 06/10/15 11:55 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I am also a noob so I'm not the most reliable source, You can birth whenever as long as scoop the uncolonized material with something like a sterile plastic spoon. Because any material that is uncolonized is easily likely target for contam

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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: SlimeySlugNug]
    #21795642 - 06/12/15 01:02 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Spawning to bulk substrate is done in open air.  It doesn't magically become vulnerable to contams just because you open it up while it's colonizing.  Casing is pasturized and contains even less nutrients, so it is even less likely to contaminate than the bulk substrate.

The only issue I can see is the sudden influx of fresh air during colonizing, but if he casing is applied in still-air-ish conditions quickly, perhaps the CO2 will not be heavily dispused.

I have had some issues with bulk chomping at the bit to fruit by 100%, so I think I will be trying an ealier casing, with the hope of getting a more even pinsets and less sidepins.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #21795664 - 06/12/15 01:08 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

it's been over 3 years... i'm sure OP's tub is fully colonized by now


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: FriedEgg]
    #21795677 - 06/12/15 01:13 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Oops.  Didn't notice this was a necro.  Sorry for the bump.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...

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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #21795786 - 06/12/15 01:51 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Well the same questions DO tend to keep coming around, so I've never seen any reason why you can't dig up old posts as long as they're worth it.
So just for the record and to stay on topic, IMHO whenever you case, you should always use something that is DEVOID of nutrients, none, nada, zippity doo dah, lol.  First off the shrooms don't need em cuz their in the substrate, and if you add nutes to the casing then the myc will simply colonize that and you're back where you started with an uncased substrate.  Plus the nutes give bacteria and mold a meal and a foothold, so I simply prefer not to chance it.

So imho, straight vermiculite, moistened to field capacity plus 10% and then sterilized in the oven for 2 hours at 325 - 350f.  Add a 1/2" layer of this to case your sub which I prefer to do as soon as it's at least 90% colonized.  Sterile verm can hold a lot of water and adds great protection from contams.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21795799 - 06/12/15 01:56 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

No need to sterilize verm.

:feelsoldman:

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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21795847 - 06/12/15 02:22 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Yes you do, at least my XP says so.  Vermiculite is mined, then tossed into trucks in open air, then into a dirty plant to be sorted and bagged, then transported all over, in trains and trucks, maybe boats if you live on the islands, lol. Then it sits in distribution warehouse for god knows how long until it gets to your local store where it sits some MORE. 

No knowing how long that shit has been out of the ground and exposed to all kinds of dirt and contams, many of which could contain the nearly omnipresent endospores we know and hate.  Plus when you're processing the casing more bacteria could get in on your hands, water etc. 

So imo the absolute best way to make CERTAIN that it's as clean as you can get it is to wet it to field capacity, plus about 10%, then put it in turkey oven bags and bake for at least 2 hours at 325-350f.  Makes perfect casing material every time ;?D

Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 12:27 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21795869 - 06/12/15 02:31 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Out of curiosity how many mush grows do you have under your belt?

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OfflineFreeWorldOrder
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: SlimeySlugNug]
    #21796304 - 06/12/15 07:50 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SlimeySlugNug said:
I am also a noob so I'm not the most reliable source, You can birth whenever as long as scoop the uncolonized material with something like a sterile plastic spoon. Because any material that is uncolonized is easily likely target for contam




Fist of all, it's a monotub not cakes, so he won't be birthing.

2nd... don't "scoop out" uncolonized substrate. Doing something like that probably WILL introduce contams.

If one is questioning the best time to case then I would apply a "late casing". This is when the substrate is 100% colonized and even sometimes knotted up and/or just starting to pin.

You could also just skip the casing altogether. I use a late casing on my bulk subs, but I live in a dry climate and can benefit from using a casing layer.

Seeing quite a bit questionable info on this thread....  :shrug:


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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21800280 - 06/13/15 12:20 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Newbie2shoes, I've been in this game for several years buckaroo, had more grows than I can count.  Don't think that simply because someone is new to THIS forum that it means they're a noob, THAT would be a mistake, lol, but typical nonetheless ;?D

Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 12:24 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21800439 - 06/13/15 01:26 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
Newbie2shoes, I've been in this game for several years buckaroo, had more grows than I can count.  Don't think that simply because someone is new to THIS forum that it means they're a noob, THAT would be a mistake, lol, but typical nonetheless ;?D



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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Buck513]
    #21800474 - 06/13/15 01:45 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah. You may not be new, but why are you throwing wet verm into the oven? It doesn't sterilize like a pc does. It seems silly to me. Verm doesn't have endospores either. It's grains that have them and they need to get pressure cooked for them. It's the 15 psi pressure and temperature that kills bacterial endos.

You're just kinda wasting power. Verm doesn't need anything. Once in fruiting it's all dirty af anyways. Bacteria is forever present during fruiting so it wouldn't even be a problem in the first place.

If you got contaminations, it's probably something else because healthy mycelium will easily fight it off and verm is pretty contamination resistant.


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Edited by Mad Season (06/13/15 01:52 AM)

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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21800797 - 06/13/15 04:59 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I should have said pasteurized in an oven, and also right about the endospores. However, after 325f. for 2 hours there are no fungal spores or viruses that will survive. and most bacteria will be destroyed (except those that are known to produce endospores, which are generally limited to Gram-positive bacteria to my knowledge).

The rational for this is that it ADDS a protective layer against infective agents like cobweb and trich and all the myriad other fungal contams, provided they're not already present in your sub at the time it is cased.  LATER after you begin spraying and fanning, yes contams can be introduced but the vermiculite, being devoid of nutrients, again doesn't provide a favorable environment.

This is especially helpful for less-experienced growers as it goes a long way in making up for various misteps, like inadequate cleaning of their grow environs or spawning partially colonized jars.  Uncolonized grains are a magnet for contams, and pasteurized verm helps protect it long enough that hopefully the myc will get to it before the baddies do. I've seen growers who had constant problems with cobweb then resolve this issue by following this process, and the addition of small amounts of H2o2 mixed into the verm prior to casing can also have a similar effect from my XP.

But your argument that store-bought vermiculite is somehow sterile and completely free from contams is rather a strange belief, imho, and one that I don't think would be borne out by testing on agar.  Add some wet verm to a plate and see what grows, lol.

Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 05:12 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21801155 - 06/13/15 08:35 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't say that it's mold free. I said colonized mycelium will be strong enough to fight off contamination. Once fully colonized, it doesn't need to be sterile anymore. It's not like a fruiting chamber is free of mold. They get covered in millions of mold spores the moment they go in the chamber.

Tl;dr it's not the dirty verm that causes contamination on a fully colonized substrate. It's the fact your substrate was too weak to hold its own against the contaminations.

That's why I said it's probably something else. Because a truly healthy substrate wouldn't have any problems in the first place.


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Edited by Mad Season (06/13/15 08:39 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21801281 - 06/13/15 09:17 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid: Fungi cannot germinate on verm. Fully colonized substrates are contam resistant. I someone wants to sterilize the verm it won't hurt a thing. But I have shaken it on straight from the bag lots of times.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803604 - 06/13/15 07:29 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
Newbie2shoes, I've been in this game for several years buckaroo, had more grows than I can count.  Don't think that simply because someone is new to THIS forum that it means they're a noob, THAT would be a mistake, lol, but typical nonetheless ;?D




Easy killer!!! No need to get all hostile it was just a question.

I agree that post count is not a good gauge of experience.

:derail:

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21803678 - 06/13/15 08:04 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

You all can say what you want but I do my CVG in the oven.  :shrug:

I don't really treat the verm to be used for casing though.  It's never mattered much.


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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808053 - 06/14/15 08:38 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, huh, then I must have been mistaken when I saw cobweb and trich growing on a verm casings....

And I suppose every single sub you've produced is perfect every time?  Everyone makes a mistake or two now ant then, and AGAIN, a lot of this advice is to help the less experienced have some success.  My advice is often to case immediately after spawning, especially if they're having problems, if DOES HELP, imho, and while there's certainly going to be contams present after you open her up to mist and fan, it doesn't mean that throwing dirty verm in there isn't going to add something that wasn't there to begin with.

Also, I don't know how you can tell that your subs are always 100% colonized - more than a few times I'v found uncolonized spots in a sub, and yes if the layer above it is solidly colonized it's not usually a factor. But how many times have you moved a sub, especially larger ones, and seen a crack form?  I've had em, especially when I'm growing monster trays, and that's an open door for fungus and bacteria if there's even a tiny uncolonized spot under the surface, so with the bigguns I've just case immediately after mixing in the spawn.  But everyone's free to take another path, lol, just adding my 2.5 cents (adjusted for inflation ;?).

Finally, I don't get why a lot of people think that just because vermiculite is devoid of nutes and therefore unattractive to a wide range of contams, that those little fuckers can't get into the product during the NUMEROUS steps in the processing, cleaning, bagging and shipping process.  One of my biggest fears is that while it's sitting in the garden supply store (which, imo, are just filled with all kinds of spores) it's going to pick up a ton of shit, even if just on the outside of the bag, and you're bringing that stuff into your house (which is why I leave it out in the shed, along with everything else I buy there, and only bring in what I need).

But that is just an opinion and I suppose I should go ahead and do a test to prove my theory, but I'm inherently lazy, lol, and generally have more important stuff on the burner, but maybe some day ;?D

Hey Newbie2Shoes, sorry to come off like a dick, been on edge a bit lately, need to change my meds I'm thinking, lol.

Edited by fearnoevil (06/14/15 08:58 PM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808066 - 06/14/15 08:41 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe that is an issue but all most of us have to go off of is experience.  I just can't think of many things I can do to verm that leave it dry and aren't nearly as bad as doing nothing to it.  I guess I could try to throw my dry verm in a bag in the oven but that wouldn't conduct heat well at all, and just baking it on a tray would be nasty as fuck.

Could probably sterilize in jars but all that effort and I've never noticed a difference from just dumping it straight out of the bag, so, you see the issue?

Once I have a problem with it I'll change my tune and figure something out, probably just PC a jar full of it for half an hour or whatever.

Spores can have landed on it but it won't contain endospores like grains do.


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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808093 - 06/14/15 08:49 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Its all gravy mayne.. check out the post your cultivation thread. Some good mush porn and advice.

I started casing a little after I put into fruiting. I'm no expert but I don't dunk for the first flush and verm is always fresh out of the bag.

My yields don't break any scales but far more than I can eat and give away.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21808130 - 06/14/15 08:57 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

So Inocuole, are you saying you don't wet your verm to field capacity first?  I've never tried that, usually I find that adding the moisture first insures it's evenly wetted/properly, and of course the other reasons mentioned.  But hey, different strokes for different folks, it's all good as long as it produces mushies:thumbup:

Thanks N2S, will do ;?D

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808165 - 06/14/15 09:05 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I have heat treated verm and shaken it on straight from the bag. If your having shitty colonization or contams before first flush then work on getting clean spawn. It will serve you far better in the long run. The thing to not do is come on here spewing vitrol and babbling like some idiot. That helps no one :shrug:

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808183 - 06/14/15 09:10 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I've tried it a few ways, but yeah at one point I did just moisten the surface of the substrate before I just applied dry verm to it, then misted it real good, it worked a charm.

The other times I've cased I usually just used leftover deposits of verm with little bits of coir that stick to the bottom of the bucket when you bucket tek, which I guess is pretty field capacity, but it was also sitting there for a few days.

I really don't case much so MY personal experience is actually not indicative of much, I can only draw a few parallels with other people's experience and that SORT OF tells me which things are common and which are flukes.  :shrug:


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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21808211 - 06/14/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Like a dunk and roll for cakes I literally rolled the cake in the bag the verm comes in no issues so why change it?

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21808214 - 06/14/15 09:16 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Well if anyone remembers my bottle grows I would simply just toss some dry verm on em, shake it to get it even, them mist to get it moist. Not once did any contam from the verm.



Now if you keep slices of moldy bread and cheese in your bag of verm, you should probably sterilize that shit. But if that's the case you should clean your house while you're at it.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808232 - 06/14/15 09:19 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Pasty your plate and bottle teks are on point. I hope to be a boss like you one day.

:youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808236 - 06/14/15 09:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I don't have 100% success, but I don't blame it on my casing. I always blame it on my procedure. If I get clean spawn, it's always 100% after that point. A casing doesn't make or break it. If you had trich or cobweb germinate, it was on the surface of the mycelium before laying the casing and the mycelium was too weak to stop it from germinating and colonize over it, probably from dirty, weak ass spawn.

This is my 3rd time telling you that your mycelium being clean is a lot more important than a casings cleanliness. It's not bad practice, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt that dirty verm is what makes or breaks your grow, since LOTS of us don't sterilize/pasteurize verm with 100% success, IF it was clean aggressive spawn.

Also when bits are still uncolonized, it's not colonized.. you can tell it's 100% colonized when there's no bits that are uncolonized :wink:


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Edited by Mad Season (06/14/15 09:29 PM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21808300 - 06/14/15 09:39 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

newbie2shoes said:
Pasty your plate and bottle teks are on point. I hope to be a boss like you one day.

:youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:




Thanks man but the bottles were Mudafukas tek, I just really liked it :wink:

Also everyone can reach a high level of grow, its not hard. Just have to get a few key points straight and it becomes easy. Most important is to lay blame where it belongs. Most of the time its the spawn.  Yet I see people blaming casing or bulk prep. Sure those things can be a vector but, figure the spawn out first,  success follows clean spawn.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808454 - 06/14/15 10:03 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
success follows clean spawn.




Heh, cron's sig.  "It doesn't matter what I think of you.  All that matters is clean spawn"


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