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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Unbinding cultural chains.
#16097338 - 04/16/12 12:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all, imo, this cannot be done in total.
I think with my first acid trip in 1970 I got the vague idea that we were all bound by culture although I couldn't have named it that way at the time. But I was determined to free my self.
Over the next 40 or so years this was always in some ways a goal and after almost forty years I had about given up on any real successes in this area and I more or less resigned myself to complete surrender to being a pawn of culture.
Then I read Becker's books on Death Anxiety and over a couple of years (I'm slow) it dawned on me that the only real way to tackle this problem was to lessen as much as possible my fear of impermanence or fear of death. Not saying this is totally possible but once the fear of death or impermanence is gone to some degree nothing much has any real hold on what you do with your life. After setting about this for a couple of years in ernest I believe I am seeing solid results for the first time.
Here's a small example. Health care. As I've aged I have symptoms that the medical profession consider's possible signs of disease. They have a huge body of yearly screenings and tests, treatments and such that one can commit to in trying to combat these possible disease problems. This is something in the past I worried a lot about. Way too much and I was always worried that something was going wrong feeling like I should follow the doctors advice and have expensive screenings and tests. On one test I had a lump in my prostate that the doc told me with a frown I needed to have biopsied to see if it was cancer and then we could proceed with treatments and surgery's .
The issue here was that I don't trust the medical profession in many ways. I feel it is designed to chain us to our fear of death and they have created a huge lucrative industry around this and they honesty don't give a flying fuck about me personally but they are bound and determined to sell me products by scaring me about everything they can.
Anyway that was years ago now and I've done nothing they've recommended because I had lost much of my fear of dying. Ya see I don't want to be chained to living my life based on what people I don't respect or trust tell me I should be doing. Now I could die as a result of this choice but the fact that it was my choice based on what I wanted has given me a feeling of selfhood and personal respect I've not had before so it's worth it. Not to mention the moments of actual joy when feeling much less fear aroung my personal impermanence.
In conclusion I'd say that conquering to some degree ones death anxiety, is the key to personal freedom.
And I'll add to do that Imo one must start on a hard road that begins with the full acknowledgement that one does fear death to some degree and then setting about finding and facing that fear on a daily basis whenever presents itself.
Anyone agree?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16097609 - 04/16/12 01:28 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16097661 - 04/16/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know you, but most of the people I've seen who refuse to follow medicle advice with relatively serious things (like possible cancer) seem to be doing it percisely because they are afraid to die. They simply entrench themselves in complete denial that anything is wrong... and then eventually go back to the doctor essentially hopelessly ill.
There's plenty to be said for questioning medicine, especially because of the racket they've managed to push everyone into (why does it take months to get to see a doc in many areas and cost 150$ for a primary care visit for 15min?- a constraint on the number of physicians as well as lack of freedom to choose your own treatments).
That said, if a male lives long enough, there's quite a high chance they will get cancer of the prostate, and I urge you to get it check out. About all it takes in most cases is a sort of "injection" through the wall of the rectum- not harmful and not too expensive.
After that, you can diagnose the lump and if it is cancer, make an informed decision. For older people who are otherwise healthy and without much life expectancy, it can make sense to not treat slow moving cancers, but it sounds like you're young enough where it would be worth it.
Prostate removals nowdays don't neccesarily result in incontinence or importence.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16097762 - 04/16/12 02:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The issue here was that I don't trust the medical profession in many ways. I feel it is designed to chain us to our fear of death and they have created a huge lucrative industry around this and they honesty don't give a flying fuck about me personally but they are bound and determined to sell me products by scaring me about everything they can."
I think you've left some of your "cultural chains" about here.
Doctors are people just like you or me who made the decision to go into the medical profession. The reasons for this vary from person to person, from being pushed into it by their parents, the desire for money, to the genuine desire to learn about human biology and to help cure what ails people. It has always been a profession which, through the hippocratic oath, is irrevocably tied with selflessness.
However, that is not to say that the health industry profits a great deal from this practice, and will make every effort, as any business would, to maximize profits. Curiously enough, part of that is having a health industry that does actually work, and that is effective, or else no one would ever use it.
To that extent, the health industry will have to beat placebo.
Whether the health industry only has an illusion of effectiveness is one question, but another is how likely is it that one could put that many hungry people into communication with each other and end up with wrong answers gone uncorrected for long? This is the marvel of science, put as many people as possible in communicado and what will result is the endless re-correction of falsities.
Now, the funny thing is that this whole thing is a different discussion from whether or not one has a fear of or aversion to dying. A person can do whatever they want in regards to their health, whether its going to a clinic, visiting a witch doctor, or waiting it out and hoping that one's own body will nuke away any unwanted problems. All of these methods are not really in discussion with whether a person does or does not want to die. Sure, many people will not wish to die from an illness, but the way they cope with it is different. Alternatively, a person could have an illness and want to die, or at least, have no reason to provide that would incline them to drive towards a solution to their health, however much or little effort it would be.
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keeponrockin
infinite layers


Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: xFrockx]
#16097912 - 04/16/12 03:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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as i see, you and john are beating Icelander because of the decision he made and are missing the point of the discussion. i'm not saying that we shouldn't care for each other but he's a very strong character, very rational and reasonable and totally capable of making decisions.
Quote:
In conclusion I'd say that conquering to some degree ones death anxiety, is the key to personal freedom.
i agree with him but right now im not able to develop a more complex response (no time).
last and least, seems like someone has found a dictionary.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 1 hour
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I'm not beating him for anything, good sir. I was just trying to differentiate between caring for ones own health and caring about dying. In his post I felt the two were sortof muddled together.
If he wants to stop taking care of himself and surrender to whatever the consequences may be, more power to him.
If he wants to go the self-cure route for his potential prostate growth, then more power to him, I just won't have it confused with letting go of death anxiety.
Death anxiety may be one fear, but how about fear of doctors?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: johnm214]
#16097938 - 04/16/12 03:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: I don't know you, but most of the people I've seen who refuse to follow medicle advice with relatively serious things (like possible cancer) seem to be doing it percisely because they are afraid to die. They simply entrench themselves in complete denial that anything is wrong... and then eventually go back to the doctor essentially hopelessly ill.
There's plenty to be said for questioning medicine, especially because of the racket they've managed to push everyone into (why does it take months to get to see a doc in many areas and cost 150$ for a primary care visit for 15min?- a constraint on the number of physicians as well as lack of freedom to choose your own treatments).
That said, if a male lives long enough, there's quite a high chance they will get cancer of the prostate, and I urge you to get it check out. About all it takes in most cases is a sort of "injection" through the wall of the rectum- not harmful and not too expensive.
After that, you can diagnose the lump and if it is cancer, make an informed decision. For older people who are otherwise healthy and without much life expectancy, it can make sense to not treat slow moving cancers, but it sounds like you're young enough where it would be worth it.
Prostate removals nowdays don't neccesarily result in incontinence or importence.
why don't you come over and check it out for me
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: xFrockx]
#16097944 - 04/16/12 03:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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like I said it's not going to be perfect
plus this is only an example.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16097989 - 04/16/12 03:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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The thing I'm wondering now is that you seem to have at least two different kinds of overall fears at play here. One being the fear of dying, the other being experiencing things you don't want to experience while living.
I mean let's be honest here. You probably don't want some doctor cutting up your butt hole, but it's not going to kill you. Cancer, however, will.
So basically while you might have less fear of death, you've still got a significant fear of bodily discomfort, it seems.
So maybe in this post you've shown, perhaps accidentally, that death anxiety isn't really all of it. You've still got significant stress/fear/apprehension in your life that is limiting your decisions. And how can you ever be personally free while that is the case?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: xFrockx]
#16098151 - 04/16/12 04:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here's another example. I have limited financial resources and yet went ahead and retired anyway. The fact is that, especially if I'm not frugal I'll run out of money in about 10 years or less. I decided to retire anyway and I'm spending my money faster than when I was working. IMO this is because I have less fear (not no fear) and so am willing to trade an unknown future for a fuller and more relaxed now.
While I have some fear of bodily discomfort I've had surgeries before in my life. I'm not particularly afraid of being cut. I think the deciding factor is more that I've come to realize that my life is not very important. That it's a temporary affair that I'm not very in control of. That what's important is the present and not any future and especially one that continues indefinitely. If I'm not immortal and I'm not more important than anything else what possible difference would a few years give or take make? And why do I feel better and more calm when I take these actions? Why does life seem richer and less important?
I know I'm always going to have some level of fear. I'm talking about less fear and more fun. And that's all I'm talking about.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander] 1
#16098184 - 04/16/12 04:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've never been a huge fan of fun.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: xFrockx]
#16098422 - 04/16/12 05:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's easy to see. Anyway the idea for me here is to make choices, to the best of my limited ability, to do what I want to do rather than what is necessarily prescribed by the culture. Of course this is going to be imperfect. My only guide is how I feel.
Culture decides how we are all supposed to feel about how it is structured and how we like it or whether we want to stick around to the bitter end or not and 10,000 other things. If one can take a few of these choices back for themselves then that would imo be a more authentic life. This would be, for a few of us, more important than a long life. Look I've watched my parents go though this and the end was not good let me tell you and the doctors were right there by my mothers side siphoning off every dollar they could after they had the audacity earlier to put her in a state run mental institution and then neglect her there and then fight us in court to get her released because they wanted the medicare funds. She was never a danger to herself or others. If one does not learn from the experiences of others then they can have the fun of learning the hard way.
It seems to me you'd understand this somewhat considering your spiel here is to try and get others to question their beliefs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16099630 - 04/16/12 09:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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You are lucky that you do not live in a culture that favors early retirement, relaxed living and fun as with your contrary nature, you would work 80 hour weeks in a lousy job just to piss them off.
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jackSpearows
ShaRooooms !!!



Registered: 01/17/12
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16099647 - 04/16/12 09:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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look the personality is going to fear death. but deep down the person knows its just a bunch of bs and only a game. if you got an inspiration, then ride it.
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questioneverything
joven fuerte

Registered: 12/11/11
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Icelander, though we may disagree because I have a lot to learn, I see a lot of me in your op. You said it all, so I'll just say I agree.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: xFrockx]
#16100045 - 04/16/12 11:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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you seem to have at least two different kinds of overall fears at play here. One being the fear of dying, the other being experiencing things you don't want to experience while living.
So maybe in this post you've shown, perhaps accidentally, that death anxiety isn't really all of it.
the fear of physical discomfort can easily be linked to a fear of death
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16100087 - 04/16/12 11:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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it makes complete sense that a reduction in death anxiety would coincide with a reduction in your need for cultural values to validate your existence. one of the great insights that becker gave us is that culture largely functions as a system of unconscious death denial. with less fear of death comes a lessening in your need for cultural validation.
if i was in your situation i would get my prostate checked out but it's your decision. it's good to hear your feeling well and practising what you preach
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Edited by blingbling (04/16/12 11:24 PM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: Icelander]
#16100369 - 04/17/12 12:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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are you trolling? you've cut and pasted other peoples words in a few threads now, probably seven considering your post count. what's up with that?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: blingbling]
#16100398 - 04/17/12 01:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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The account Isabel57 is probably run by a bot/script thingy. There have been a few of these turning up.
Generally the style is that they copy and paste a portion (a sentence usually) of another user's post. Usually they precede the copy-pasted portion with a period.
If you see this crap, please report it to a moderator.
I don't know what the point of this kind of spam is- maybe they copy-paste nonsense for a while until submitting the commercial messages.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Unbinding cultural chains. [Re: johnm214]
#16100419 - 04/17/12 01:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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ah, i see.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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