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InvisibleShins
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Atheism is a straw man * 1
    #16068022 - 04/09/12 11:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

how?  because there are different definitions of god.

for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?


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OfflinewerDehT
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068154 - 04/09/12 11:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist."

"Pantheism is the view that the Universe (or Nature) and God (or divinity) are identical.[1] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. The word derives from the Greek (pan) meaning "all" and the Greek (theos) meaning "God". As such, Pantheism denotes the idea that "God" is best seen as a process of relating to the Universe."


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: werDehT]
    #16068193 - 04/09/12 11:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i think there are people who interchange atheist and agnostic almost randomly.

one refers directly to some notion of 'god', the other refers to knowledge itself


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: venetianblinds]
    #16068303 - 04/10/12 12:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm... if atheism only denied dieties, wouldnt that make it adeism?

atheism rejects ALL types of theism by definition.

i would say pantheism is adiest.

panentheism i would call diest.


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068327 - 04/10/12 12:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

theology
mid-14c., from O.Fr. theologie "philosophical treatment of Christian doctrine" (14c.), from L. theologia, from Gk. theologia "an account of the gods," from theologos "one discoursing on the gods," from theos "god" (see Thea) + -logos "treating of."

deity
c.1300, "divine nature;" late 14c., "a god," from O.Fr. deité, from L.L. deitatem (nom. deitas) "divine nature," coined by Augustine from L. deus "god," from PIE *deiwos



very similar words you see...i even wonder if the two roots of those words were actually the same once...theo- and deu-.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: venetianblinds]
    #16068366 - 04/10/12 12:49 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah i just realised i have my theos and dieos all confused.

i think im confused about the difference between diesm and theism.


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins] * 1
    #16068371 - 04/10/12 12:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

seems nearly arbitrary to me. i think the distinction between agnostic and athiest is more important when one is trying to say how they feel about the world, but personally, i think as soon as you call it a name, its less directly understood


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068377 - 04/10/12 12:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So one could be atheist but also diest.

maybe its me with the straw man

XD


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068384 - 04/10/12 12:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

but they both mean 'god'...im not sure if what you said is possible:lol:


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: venetianblinds]
    #16068413 - 04/10/12 01:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm well it seems there is some kind of distinction, but it kind if illudes me.

i always thought theos was immenant while deus was a seperate creator from the universe or a supernatural designer.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins] * 1
    #16068427 - 04/10/12 01:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Whether diety or thiety i still wonder how an "A" can deny a "PAN"

A = not, lack of
PAN = all, full.

it seems an "A" denies all of existence in some context.


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068436 - 04/10/12 01:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

it denies existence in god out there

whereas i would interpret most pantheism as something all around


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: venetianblinds]
    #16068442 - 04/10/12 01:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i dont know if that was clear

what i mean is something like the contrast of the christian belief in god up in heaven as opposed to say, the idea of the flowing of the tao, or something.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: venetianblinds]
    #16068457 - 04/10/12 01:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Theism, atheism both seem to insecure to admit 'we don't know'.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068465 - 04/10/12 01:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I also think agnosticism is... actually kind of confusing.

agnostic kind of says nothing is knowable, disbelief in knowledge?

i would call scientists and science gnostics...

so if youre agnostic, in a sense you dont believe science?

but in another milder sense, agnostic could just mean you believe in science, but youre a skeptic.

but i think if you believe in ANY science that you're gnostic.

like if you believe 1+1=2


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068499 - 04/10/12 01:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so if youre agnostic, in a sense you dont believe science?




I think that view makes best scientists. Why do they even do science if they don't believe in it?
Because they want to find out and they have no choice but to work with what they're given.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16068502 - 04/10/12 01:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
Theism, atheism both seem to insecure to admit 'we don't know'.




but do we know? (in general)

anything at all?

maybe we dont know it all, but we have some clues?

maybe all the pieces are there but we're blinded and deep in our hearts we can feel it?

a major agnostic wouldnt even bother to try and look?


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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068517 - 04/10/12 01:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i dont believe anything, but i look and seek and find things entertaining. i wouldnt say i look for some final answer to anything though. my friends misunderstand me when they find me reading something like, an ancient hindu text. they think im looking for the answer, but im really just enjoying something beautiful.


the rig veda, or the small bit i have in english, is very funny by the way


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins]
    #16068524 - 04/10/12 01:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Objectively, it's very obvious that there cannot be any true knowing beyond descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.
We just keep hoping we're wrong and play along with what could be an illusion.
It seems to work, so we keep playing along, but then again, we don't really know why it works.
It's arguable that even Descartes could have been wrong and that 'I think therefore I am' could have more than one
interpretation or be completely wrong.


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Edited by cbub (04/10/12 01:49 AM)


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16068578 - 04/10/12 02:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Like this: I think therefore I am.

1.) My thinking is a proof of my existence
2.) My thinking is making my existence - I think myself be.
--
3.) I don't exist at all, I'm made up by someone/something else.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16068592 - 04/10/12 02:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Mixed hypothetical syllogism: Modus ponens (valid and unsound)

If I am pondering my existence then I must exist
I am pondering my existence
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therefore I must exist


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 01:33 PM)


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16068928 - 04/10/12 06:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That's circular: Exist therefore exist.


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"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16069918 - 04/10/12 12:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

non-existence is not
existence is
i am therefore i am  :iamderp:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16070022 - 04/10/12 12:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Descartes used logic and philosophy to bridge sprituality and science, so that they were no longer mutually exclusive.

For something to be pondering its existence, it would first have to exist.

You are arguing only whether it exists separately. You obviously exist if you ponder existence, for without anything to ponder, there is no pondering. There is no pondering existence without something to ponder existence. Self-evident.
Quote:


Aristotle explains the idea in full length:

    But if life itself is good and pleasant (...) and if one who sees is conscious that he sees, one who hears that he hears, one who walks that he walks and similarly for all the other human activities there is a faculty that is conscious of their exercise, so that whenever we perceive, we are conscious that we perceive, and whenever we think, we are conscious that we think, and to be conscious that we are perceiving or thinking is to be conscious that we exist... (Nicomachean Ethics, 1170a25 ff.)






Quote:

crkhd said:
That's circular




Yeah I see that now, thanks.


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 01:44 PM)


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InvisibleSymbols
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070027 - 04/10/12 12:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Words debating words.
Much 'ado about nothing.
A bird flew by my head,
With the sound of 'swoosh!'
Next I had to pause,
And debate with my comrades
If they heard the same sound.
After much confusion,
One said 'swoosh'
Another said, 'wheew.'
After our exchange,
Several other birds passed us by
Unnoticed.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Symbols]
    #16070183 - 04/10/12 01:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So the Cartesian Theatre/materialism is a Straw Man Argument often used to discredit Descartes.

Quote:


In philosophy of mind, Cartesian materialism is the idea that at some place (or places) in the brain, there is some set of information that directly corresponds to our conscious experience. Contrary to its name, Cartesian materialism is not a view that was held by or formulated by René Descartes, who subscribed rather to a form of substance dualism.





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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins] * 1
    #16070199 - 04/10/12 01:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16070260 - 04/10/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.



Why is the word atheism so frowned upon?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16070261 - 04/10/12 01:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Mixed hypothetical syllogism: Modus ponens (valid and sound?)

If something is pondering its existence then it must be existing.
I am pondering my existence.
--------------------
Therefore I must be existing.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #16070271 - 04/10/12 01:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.



Why is the word atheism so frowned upon?




Because the world is run by and our culture is inherited from believers.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16070508 - 04/10/12 02:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070526 - 04/10/12 02:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




If-then statements dont work like that!  :tongue:  If thought then exist does not imply that if no thought then no exist.  For that we use if and only if, or iff.  Iff thought then exist implies that if no thought then no exist.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070610 - 04/10/12 02:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




If you never question whether you exist then your existence would be uncertain.

You present a false dichotomy, for there are more choices than ceasing to exist without thought, one of which is an uncertain existence.

Without self-evident truth then your existence is uncertain.


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 02:49 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16070650 - 04/10/12 02:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison and a radioactive source, is placed in a sealed box. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

(Look at it from the cats perspective from within the box)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16071030 - 04/10/12 04:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Personally I don't care if you say there is absolutely a god or there is absolutely not a god, either way, I think you are full of shit to think you know anything as absolutely.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16071050 - 04/10/12 04:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Then one can absolutely know he's full of shit? :laugh:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16071068 - 04/10/12 04:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

From an individual perspective, yes. One can easily determine ones own misconceptions of their own accord, although it seems more beneficial to have someone to compare perspectives with.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073348 - 04/10/12 11:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

how?  because there are different definitions of god.

for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




I don't think that atheism relies on logic...  Just like ancient aliens.  They believe there is no god not because of proof of no god but because of a lack of proof.  Just like this guy... :ancientaliens:  Not logic but a overwhelming % chance that there is no god. 

A pantheist saying god is everything, is just as logical. 

Logic being "if, then" statments.  There is no definitive, if there is not god, then ____.  Or if god is everything, then ___.  No logic behind either.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073791 - 04/11/12 02:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




Diecommie is right. Conditional premise is "If, Then", what diecommie is pointing out is the fallacy of denying the antecedent.

Quote:

Denying the antecedent, sometimes also called inverse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form:

    If P, then Q.
    Not P.
    Therefore, not Q.

Arguments of this form are invalid. Informally, this means that arguments of this form do not give good reason to establish their conclusions, even if their premises are true.

The name denying the antecedent derives from the premise "not P", which denies the "if" clause of the conditional premise.

One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a counterexample with true premises but an obviously false conclusion. For example:

    If Queen Elizabeth is an American citizen, then she is a human being.
    Queen Elizabeth is not an American citizen.
    Therefore, Queen Elizabeth is not a human being.





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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073838 - 04/11/12 02:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If you want to formulate a valid Modus tollens it would be something like:

If something is pondering its existence then it must exist.
You do not exist.
------------------
You are not pondering existence.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073879 - 04/11/12 02:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If you want to formulate a valid Modus tollens it would be something like:

If something is pondering its existence then it must exist.
You do not exist.
------------------
You are not pondering existence.




lol, here would be a logical athiest statement...
If there is no god, then I am correct...

Quote:

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering?



No, its safe to take a break.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073894 - 04/11/12 03:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If an atheist is correct then there is no god.
God is unknown
-----------------
An atheist is not correct

(How a pantheist defeats an atheist)


Edited by teknix (04/11/12 03:36 AM)


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073910 - 04/11/12 03:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
Quote:

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering?



No, its safe to take a break.




Of course it is, but doesn't this make 'I think therefore I am' a bit shaky?
Might as well say 'I perceive therefore I am' with equal weight.

..and congratulations to the 2nd indisputable statement folks!
1.) 'I think therefor I am' R. Descartes (1644)
2.) 'I know therefor I'm not credible' Shroomery (2012)
:lol:


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Edited by cbub (04/11/12 03:21 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073918 - 04/11/12 03:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Not at all.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073920 - 04/11/12 03:23 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Nah, it only adds evidence to it. The fact that existence without thinking is unknown. How could existence ever be affirmed or denied without thinking?


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073927 - 04/11/12 03:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say without thought you still exist, it doesn't depend on your affirmation of it.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073932 - 04/11/12 03:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How do you know then? (intuition?) :tongue:


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073960 - 04/11/12 03:42 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, that's definitely the interesting part. We just have to know, don't we?
What does a stone know? Does it exist?


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073983 - 04/11/12 03:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Nah, it only adds evidence to it. The fact that existence without thinking is unknown. How could existence ever be affirmed or denied without thinking?




The same could be said about the, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound.  How could the sound be affirmed or denied with out hearing it?

Also, what about all of the non-living objects... They do not think.  Do they exist?  Or plantish things.  Do they think/exist?

I never understood the phrase I think therefore I am.  Maybe I am taking it to literally....


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073991 - 04/11/12 03:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's a gateway to self evident truth.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073995 - 04/11/12 04:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

There's a great book dealing with such questions.
Everything Forever: Learning To See Timelessness by Gevin Giorbran

Happy to see you all interested in basics! :thumbup:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074010 - 04/11/12 04:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks! If you have anymore questions feel free to ask :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16074012 - 04/11/12 04:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
Also, what about all of the non-living objects... They do not think.  Do they exist?  Or plantish things.  Do they think/exist?

I never understood the phrase I think therefore I am.  Maybe I am taking it to literally....




But remember how if then statements work.  The antecedent is sufficient but not necessary for the consequence.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074021 - 04/11/12 04:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

here's a taste.
Quote:

Words meaningfully manage to define all that exists and all that is imaginable.
Einstein spoke of this eloquently as such, “The eternal mystery of the
world is its comprehensibility” So why is it that the physical universe seems to
exist in concert with the meanings that define the words and ideas we think
with. Such profound questions are asked of science, even if they aren't ordinarily
considered answerable with any great measure of certainty. We should at least
consider that if the infinite universe is limited in some way, it is limited in concert
with the very meanings that define language. So we should not be surprised
to find that words, as fragmentary and ethereal as they seem, can define the
ultimate boundaries of reality.




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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16074025 - 04/11/12 04:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If a plant questions its existence then it is existing.

Otherwise the plant doesn't know if it is existing.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074033 - 04/11/12 04:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask :smile:



Hey! :smile:
How are you? Having a good day?
Which view is pantheistic?
Seeing everything as ordinary or seeing everything as divine?


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074037 - 04/11/12 04:26 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Define god.

Define god quantified.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16075435 - 04/11/12 01:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If a plant questions its existence then it is existing.

Otherwise the plant doesn't know if it is existing.




Going from this; it seems fallacious to question existence. You will always go round in circles.

I = exist. Likewise, "think" = exist. "therefore" = exist". "am" = "exist". All of these words require existence a priori.

And then, we already know existence is the case. It's intellectually dishonest to question an experiment where the results are fixed in advance.

I mean: I don't exist therefore, what?

You can never negate existence. Existence is absolute. Being subject to the emptiness of non-being then existing creates the illusion that existence is relative. But it isn't. That we are present and questioning is a testament to the absolute 'power'/dominion of existence.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16075574 - 04/11/12 01:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Define god.

Define god quantified.




All there is.
1.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16075588 - 04/11/12 01:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You can never negate existence. Existence is absolute. Being subject to the emptiness of non-being then existing creates the illusion that existence is relative. But it isn't. That we are present and questioning is a testament to the absolute 'power'/dominion of existence.




You would probably like this paragraph -

Quote:

Nonexistence cannot be. It cannot exist. It cannot even be meant. And that
predicament, that total paradox, is very different from the real nothing that
exists and can be talked about. And the fact that we confuse these two concepts
is the very reason we don't yet clearly understand why we exist. We exist because
there is no alternative. There never was a non-existence in the past and there
never will be a non-existence. Existence is the default setting of reality. Existence
belongs here. It has always been.




It's a bit scarce with backing it up...


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16075660 - 04/11/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
Quote:

Define god.

Define god quantified.




All there is.
1.




That is all pantheism means to me, the most probable and logical definition of god.

There is no belief because there is admittedly not-knowing.

For instance, we don't know all there is, so we can't know it as 1.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16075678 - 04/11/12 02:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:


I = exist. Likewise, "think" = exist. "therefore" = exist". "am" = "exist". All of these words require existence a priori.





You are begging the question here.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16076075 - 04/11/12 03:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.

As with the quote cbub provides, there's confusion between existence and "nothing", the prior does not have an opposite.

Everything Forever is a cool ass book.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16076114 - 04/11/12 03:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I really experience atheism when I'm straight and that manic depression has me by the balls. I put it down just another philosophy that I can experience. To believe in it would be to take the experience literally and deny the possibility of other experiences or philosophies. That requires stupidity and is on par with funny mentalist idiotology.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16076237 - 04/11/12 03:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

All of this religion stuff is making me wonder if :ancientaliens: is right... What would the AA's being thinking watching us destroy each other over them... They are prob :lolsy: 

I started to think about the most ancient texts too.  What if the Vedas were just stories like harry potter, or mother goose?  They get found 1000 years later and people take it as religion.  Makes me think about the dead sea scrolls.  We just found them 2000 years later.  "Oh that shit is old, it must be true" 

Or the lost theory of transporting conciousnes into the future/past.  Maybe it was just some humans in the distant future that sent their thoughs back 20,000years... I :lolsy: at that thought...


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16076362 - 04/11/12 04:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.

As with the quote cbub provides, there's confusion between existence and "nothing", the prior does not have an opposite.





It is pointing to self consciousness, awareness. You are supposed to take it literal, way over thinking it imo.

"I ponder, I think, I am"

You guys are reading more into it. The genius is within the simplicity.(imo)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16076418 - 04/11/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
All of this religion stuff is making me wonder if :ancientaliens: is right... What would the AA's being thinking watching us destroy each other over them... They are prob :lolsy: 

I started to think about the most ancient texts too.  What if the Vedas were just stories like harry potter, or mother goose?  They get found 1000 years later and people take it as religion.  Makes me think about the dead sea scrolls.  We just found them 2000 years later.  "Oh that shit is old, it must be true" 

Or the lost theory of transporting conciousnes into the future/past.  Maybe it was just some humans in the distant future that sent their thoughs back 20,000years... I :lolsy: at that thought...




Haha! Yeah we sorta have a similar perspective in this regard, I hold a disdain for history texts and memorizing the stuff because the fact that it has been shown that history can be altered within the texts. There is even a famous saying "The pen is sharper then the sword". "Murphy's Law" is another concern when considering the legitimacy of the history in our text books. Then we throw in greed and desire for more power and we have all sorts of cacophony.

Religion is the most obvious form of text warped for the purpose of power (imo).  Another example is a Pope destroying our accumulated knowledge for his own agenda, playing a part in setting our technological advancement back 1000 years by leading us into the dark ages.

Quote:


The library of the Serapeum in Alexandria was trashed, burned and looted, 392, at the decree of Theophilus of Alexandria, who was ordered so by Theodosius I.

Theophilus of Alexandria (died 412) was Patriarch of Alexandria, Egypt, from 385 to 412. He is regarded as a saint by the Coptic Orthodox Church.

He was a Coptic Pope at a time of conflict between the newly dominant Christians and the pagan establishment in Alexandria, each supported by a segment of the Alexandrian populace. Edward Gibbon described him as "...the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Alexandria





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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub] * 1
    #16076462 - 04/11/12 04:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
Objectively, it's very obvious that there cannot be any true knowing beyond descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.




Even this statement carries with it subtle assumptions, making it beg the question.  "I think" assumes the existence of an "I"; instead all we know is that "there are thoughts."


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: deCypher]
    #16076537 - 04/11/12 05:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

cbub said:
Objectively, it's very obvious that there cannot be any true knowing beyond descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.




Even this statement carries with it subtle assumptions, making it beg the question.  "I think" assumes the existence of an "I"; instead all we know is that "there are thoughts."




No, there would have to be something to think the thoughts for it to be sound. You can replace I with George or Mary, or dog and it points at the same thing. It seems like most of the evidence we have would say that thoughts are preceded by something to think. We don't have any evidence on the contrary that I am aware of?

If a dog ponders its existence, then it is affirming (to itself) it is existing. It doesn't provide evidence to you that I exist or to me that you exist, it only give evidence to me that I exist. (self-evident) It doesn't even provide evidence the an "I" exists. Only that I (as a living organism (something to think)) am existing.


Edited by teknix (04/11/12 05:11 PM)


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix] * 1
    #16076765 - 04/11/12 05:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The ignorance/stupidity/denial of other experiences is very much a part of one kind of the atheist experience. Despite the variety of mystical experiences, there is no real proof that any one experience is more relevant than another, aside from religious belief in things that have not been experienced, or mystical experience being taken too seriously. Atheism is totally relevant and integrates easily with mysticism. If our ancestors are picking through the rubble of an ancient nuclear holocaust Harry Potter will make a good religion.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16080088 - 04/12/12 12:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.





And my point is that it isnt.  You are assuming that thinking necessarily implies existence and using this 'obvious' fact to show circularity in descartes statement - but descartes statement is the statement that thinking implies existence.


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16082138 - 04/12/12 08:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Is the fact that a thought is existing and being observed as existing enough? How could something existing be observed from non-existence?

Is there observation?

How could a thought be not-existing?

Is a thought being observed, if so how so?

What is the difference between a thought being observed objectively and a thought being observed subjectively?


Edited by teknix (04/12/12 08:36 PM)


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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16082884 - 04/12/12 11:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
If our ancestors are picking through the rubble of an ancient nuclear holocaust Harry Potter will make a good religion.




:ilold:

+5


.....


Oh, interesting.  I delivered your first +5 mushroom rating for another witty comment made many moons ago.

:congrats:


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