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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16075660 - 04/11/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
Quote:

Define god.

Define god quantified.




All there is.
1.




That is all pantheism means to me, the most probable and logical definition of god.

There is no belief because there is admittedly not-knowing.

For instance, we don't know all there is, so we can't know it as 1.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16075678 - 04/11/12 02:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:


I = exist. Likewise, "think" = exist. "therefore" = exist". "am" = "exist". All of these words require existence a priori.





You are begging the question here.


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Offlinecrkhd
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Registered: 12/28/08
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16076075 - 04/11/12 03:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.

As with the quote cbub provides, there's confusion between existence and "nothing", the prior does not have an opposite.

Everything Forever is a cool ass book.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Registered: 05/12/08
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16076114 - 04/11/12 03:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I really experience atheism when I'm straight and that manic depression has me by the balls. I put it down just another philosophy that I can experience. To believe in it would be to take the experience literally and deny the possibility of other experiences or philosophies. That requires stupidity and is on par with funny mentalist idiotology.


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InvisibleWorldWideWInton
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16076237 - 04/11/12 03:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

All of this religion stuff is making me wonder if :ancientaliens: is right... What would the AA's being thinking watching us destroy each other over them... They are prob :lolsy: 

I started to think about the most ancient texts too.  What if the Vedas were just stories like harry potter, or mother goose?  They get found 1000 years later and people take it as religion.  Makes me think about the dead sea scrolls.  We just found them 2000 years later.  "Oh that shit is old, it must be true" 

Or the lost theory of transporting conciousnes into the future/past.  Maybe it was just some humans in the distant future that sent their thoughs back 20,000years... I :lolsy: at that thought...


--------------------
My past post are not necessarily reflections of my current opinions.


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16076362 - 04/11/12 04:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.

As with the quote cbub provides, there's confusion between existence and "nothing", the prior does not have an opposite.





It is pointing to self consciousness, awareness. You are supposed to take it literal, way over thinking it imo.

"I ponder, I think, I am"

You guys are reading more into it. The genius is within the simplicity.(imo)


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16076418 - 04/11/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
All of this religion stuff is making me wonder if :ancientaliens: is right... What would the AA's being thinking watching us destroy each other over them... They are prob :lolsy: 

I started to think about the most ancient texts too.  What if the Vedas were just stories like harry potter, or mother goose?  They get found 1000 years later and people take it as religion.  Makes me think about the dead sea scrolls.  We just found them 2000 years later.  "Oh that shit is old, it must be true" 

Or the lost theory of transporting conciousnes into the future/past.  Maybe it was just some humans in the distant future that sent their thoughs back 20,000years... I :lolsy: at that thought...




Haha! Yeah we sorta have a similar perspective in this regard, I hold a disdain for history texts and memorizing the stuff because the fact that it has been shown that history can be altered within the texts. There is even a famous saying "The pen is sharper then the sword". "Murphy's Law" is another concern when considering the legitimacy of the history in our text books. Then we throw in greed and desire for more power and we have all sorts of cacophony.

Religion is the most obvious form of text warped for the purpose of power (imo).  Another example is a Pope destroying our accumulated knowledge for his own agenda, playing a part in setting our technological advancement back 1000 years by leading us into the dark ages.

Quote:


The library of the Serapeum in Alexandria was trashed, burned and looted, 392, at the decree of Theophilus of Alexandria, who was ordered so by Theodosius I.

Theophilus of Alexandria (died 412) was Patriarch of Alexandria, Egypt, from 385 to 412. He is regarded as a saint by the Coptic Orthodox Church.

He was a Coptic Pope at a time of conflict between the newly dominant Christians and the pagan establishment in Alexandria, each supported by a segment of the Alexandrian populace. Edward Gibbon described him as "...the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Alexandria





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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub] * 1
    #16076462 - 04/11/12 04:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
Objectively, it's very obvious that there cannot be any true knowing beyond descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.




Even this statement carries with it subtle assumptions, making it beg the question.  "I think" assumes the existence of an "I"; instead all we know is that "there are thoughts."


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: deCypher]
    #16076537 - 04/11/12 05:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

cbub said:
Objectively, it's very obvious that there cannot be any true knowing beyond descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.




Even this statement carries with it subtle assumptions, making it beg the question.  "I think" assumes the existence of an "I"; instead all we know is that "there are thoughts."




No, there would have to be something to think the thoughts for it to be sound. You can replace I with George or Mary, or dog and it points at the same thing. It seems like most of the evidence we have would say that thoughts are preceded by something to think. We don't have any evidence on the contrary that I am aware of?

If a dog ponders its existence, then it is affirming (to itself) it is existing. It doesn't provide evidence to you that I exist or to me that you exist, it only give evidence to me that I exist. (self-evident) It doesn't even provide evidence the an "I" exists. Only that I (as a living organism (something to think)) am existing.


Edited by teknix (04/11/12 05:11 PM)


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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix] * 1
    #16076765 - 04/11/12 05:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The ignorance/stupidity/denial of other experiences is very much a part of one kind of the atheist experience. Despite the variety of mystical experiences, there is no real proof that any one experience is more relevant than another, aside from religious belief in things that have not been experienced, or mystical experience being taken too seriously. Atheism is totally relevant and integrates easily with mysticism. If our ancestors are picking through the rubble of an ancient nuclear holocaust Harry Potter will make a good religion.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16080088 - 04/12/12 12:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
The point was that "think therefore am" itself is begging the question in the first place.





And my point is that it isnt.  You are assuming that thinking necessarily implies existence and using this 'obvious' fact to show circularity in descartes statement - but descartes statement is the statement that thinking implies existence.


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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16082138 - 04/12/12 08:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Is the fact that a thought is existing and being observed as existing enough? How could something existing be observed from non-existence?

Is there observation?

How could a thought be not-existing?

Is a thought being observed, if so how so?

What is the difference between a thought being observed objectively and a thought being observed subjectively?


Edited by teknix (04/12/12 08:36 PM)


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InvisibleSociety
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #16082884 - 04/12/12 11:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
If our ancestors are picking through the rubble of an ancient nuclear holocaust Harry Potter will make a good religion.




:ilold:

+5


.....


Oh, interesting.  I delivered your first +5 mushroom rating for another witty comment made many moons ago.

:congrats:


--------------------
Delicious Pizza


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